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Vanguard wing


Dan.Ford

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10 minutes ago, Nico said:

It isn’t taking advantage - just because you have a 3” Metal Block to measure things (hopefully not around your neck) does not mean that the 3” rule is on a pedestal. The FAQ kicked it off any pedestal anyway by reaffirming that setups are distinct from moves.

The photo above illustrates the worst case - chaff on 25mm bases that aren’t properly deployed in a zig zag line. Next time that person plays if he zig zags the chaff then the Liberators cannot coherently hop over the line on their fat 40mm bases. 32mm chaff are more or less immune to that problem.

The list is very strong but is beatable. I’ve beaten it once and drawn against another (Minor victory on Knife to The Heart but he got a secondary). I all but tabled him.

If it does need a nerf, then my proposed answer was capping the Liberators at 20 Models not 30 - fewer Grand Weapons, lower effective bravery and cover less ground.

Well, is it an obvious mistake in the wording? - yes. Is it winning by using said mistake? - yes. So that’s taking advantage of an error.

But alas, I only play friendly games which is obviously very very different from tournament play and rightly so. 

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40 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

Well, is it an obvious mistake in the wording? - yes. Is it winning by using said mistake? - yes. So that’s taking advantage of an error.

But alas, I only play friendly games which is obviously very very different from tournament play and rightly so. 

There are a lot of possible ambiguities in AoS rules but this (so far) isnt one of them.  Its been available and used for a fair amount of time before GHB2017 where they adjusted a lot of things but not this.  The community team and the playtesters who are called upon by the rules designers for comment are very aware of it and I have no doubt its been discussed if its needs a change, but its not happened.

Throughout AoS there are lots of opportunities where if you get some very specific situations it can lead to potentially devastating results, but can be blocked/prevented if your opponent can see it coming. This is just one and is the current vogue due to how a lot of people are building lists (Stormcast and otherwise).

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That's okay - I've been called much worse!

I've actually fed back to GW a couple of FAQ/Rules clarifications that I think would make the game better and would also completely stop Vanguard Wing!  The problem I find is that in the meta of Tz Changehost, Skyfires, KO Dropship and Slayerhoard I think you need it to compete with the other top lists.  If they all get the top edge taken off them the game will be better as more lists will be at the 'top' level.

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On 12/20/2017 at 5:15 AM, Nico said:

It isn’t taking advantage - just because you have a 3” Metal Block to measure things (hopefully not around your neck) does not mean that the 3” rule is on a pedestal. The FAQ kicked it off any pedestal anyway by reaffirming that setups are distinct from moves.

The photo above illustrates the worst case - chaff on 25mm bases that aren’t properly deployed in a zig zag line. Next time that person plays if he zig zags the chaff then the Liberators cannot coherently hop over the line on their fat 40mm bases. 32mm chaff are more or less immune to that problem.

The list is very strong but is beatable. I’ve beaten it once and drawn against another (Minor victory on Knife to The Heart but he got a secondary). I all but tabled him.

If it does need a nerf, then my proposed answer was capping the Liberators at 20 Models not 30 - fewer Grand Weapons, lower effective bravery and cover less ground.

I'd just suggest making an FAQ on the battalion itself to uniformly match most setup restrictions. Liberators outside of this application are quite balanced. Also, more uniformity is always appreciated.
Ironically, I began to dabble in Stormcast about a month prior to the GHB2 and ran a Stardrake in a Vanguard list. Due to wanting to also run two units of Fulminators, I deemed the battalion inefficient (with battle-line restrictions my Liberator unit would only be 5) . I had completely missed the technicality of setting up the Liberators and went back to the drawing board. 

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4 hours ago, Player33 said:

Liberators outside of this application are quite balanced. Also, more uniformity is always appreciated. 

I believe Liberators are the baseline unit for balance - that’s why they are 100 Points. Inferior Chaos Warriors are rightly 90.

Rules should be consistently drafted when they are trying to achieve the same thing (for example ward save bubbles should all be the same mechanic  - rather than having inadvertent distinctions that cause confusion - Blood Shield and Warshrine for example - they should all be measure unit to unit and shouldn’t stack). Similarly Lightning Chariot, Vexillor and Astral Compass should all be pure setup rules (Compass is badly worded to suggest it is somehow also a move).

However that doesn’t mean that all alpha strike mechanics should be identical (and especially not “all useless”). Uniformity removes choice and options. Some armies should be better at doing them than others and there should be an ability to pay points for more reliable or more weighty alpha strikes or just take the “free” unreliable one (e.g. the Stormcast - must drop on a 3+).

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I'd just suggest making an FAQ on the battalion itself to uniformly match most setup restrictions.

Most setup rules are junk as you fail 9” charges the overwhelming majority of the time (especially with #CraigRolls) and don’t have powerful 24” shooting to kill stuff behind chaff*. Furthermore you are only charging into chaff against a typically competent player - so need some bunker busting combos or a double turn to not simply triple blend chaff and then get shot in the face. Death players barely summon stuff at all.l for example.

Alpha strikes have been toned down a lot since GHB 2016 (many simply don’t exist any more in their original form for example - Sayl plus Stormfiends, Warrior Brotherhood and Tomb Kings).

If you nerf all the alpha strikes, then the game rapidly transitions to who has the most stackable defences on their funline/bunker. Zero fun.

Vanguard Wing smashes your teeth in the first time you play it, then you deploy better and the game becomes far closer. It could do with a modest nerf to 20 Liberators cap.

*This is why KO are the best army in the game at the moment.

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Just reading though this thread, and I'm interested in how people play the Bearers of the storm ability and how its been ruled at tournaments.

The Rule says Liberators and Judicators within 8" receive the buffs. So is it being played as the whole unit gets the buff or only the models within the 8" bubble.

 

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36 minutes ago, Collyc said:

Just reading though this thread, and I'm interested in how people play the Bearers of the storm ability and how its been ruled at tournaments.

The Rule says Liberators and Judicators within 8" receive the buffs. So is it being played as the whole unit gets the buff or only the models within the 8" bubble.

 

Of the two rules in the formation, that one is probably more ambiguously worded than storm streak - the (re)deployment.

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On 12/21/2017 at 8:22 PM, Nico said:

Most setup rules are junk as you fail 9” charges the overwhelming majority of the time (especially with #CraigRolls) and don’t have powerful 24” shooting to kill stuff behind chaff*. Furthermore you are only charging into chaff against a typically competent player - so need some bunker busting combos or a double turn to not simply triple blend chaff and then get shot in the face. Death players barely summon stuff at all.l for example.

I agree that not all setup rules should be identical. However, as I believe you had alluded to earlier in your reply that there are multiple "tiers" of teleport setup. There's the typical 9" deployment, though the SC have their 3" variant that usually requires the deployment in a certain proximity to another unit. By uniformity I meant to have a few defined tiers of this. Ex: the normal 9", the 7" we see in Vanguard Hunters, and the Hammerstrike 3" deployment. 
I also agree that having armies with identical options would be very detrimental to gameplay. However, having these few "tiers" would simplify play a lot, and avoid situations where a newly conceived rule or wording is suddenly overwhelming to the majority of the meta. 

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newly conceived rule

I have to point out that Vanguard Wing is an ancient Battalion. The mechanic is unchanged. It was always solid, but the change to a cap of 30 Liberators with a horde discount pushed it to overpowered.

The synergy that makes the list work is Staunch Defender and the Castellant. Frankly the Castellant at 100 Points is perhaps the biggest bargain in the game (maybe after Jibber Jabber and Plague Toads) - automatic, not unbindable, not limited to one per turn and stackable Mystic Shield on a 3+ Save Hero! Give that to Ironjawz and they might conquer the Mortal Realms ? Many armies pay 80-100 just for Mystic Shield.

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