GH2017: the honeymoon is over

[RuneBrush]

As an interesting aside, GW's release schedule is handled by a part of the company that isn't "visible" to the general public.  We get access to designers, rules writers, painters etc at various open days and events, but the people who actually release the stuff to us are kept away under lock and key.  This does explain why we get some releases seemingly randomly and others may take a couple of years to appear (you'll see a year of design on every single sprue).

[heywoah_twitch]

On release schedule, I think GW should take a page from Wizards of the Coast. Letting your players know what you're working on, what's in the pipeline, and some of your goals and intentions are with releases goes an incredible way into relaxing stress from under-served armies and is also a great marketing and hype builder through the year.

Imagine regular Dev Talks where they just have a chat about the nurgle stuff they're working on rules wise, or the feeling and research that is going in to a new undead sculpt line currently in the autocad phase.

[RuneBrush]

8 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

On release schedule, I think GW should take a page from Wizards of the Coast. Letting your players know what you're working on, what's in the pipeline, and some of your goals and intentions are with releases goes an incredible way into relaxing stress from under-served armies and is also a great marketing and hype builder through the year.

Imagine regular Dev Talks where they just have a chat about the nurgle stuff they're working on rules wise, or the feeling and research that is going in to a new undead sculpt line currently in the autocad phase.

GW used to be a lot more open about what they were working on and constantly coming under fire with "you said <item> would be out by this date, it's not yet, where's my <item>".  When they got the contract for The Lord of the Rings from New Line Cinema part of that was they couldn't announce anything more than 2 weeks earlier than the release date (or at least something similar to this) and they've stuck to this and slowly but surely closed up all of the leaks that they used to have.

Sadly they're very much damned regardless of what way they do it.  Forge World have found the same, even telling people they hope an item will be out by a certain period they'll get criticised if they miss that deadline even with up-front and justifiable reasons (staff losses, production issues etc).

[heywoah_twitch]

There's a great deal of space between "we promise this will be out on Sept 26th at 6:09pm" and "unsubstantiated rumors and one guy on warhammertv mentioned nurgle".

Swearing off everything is a bit foolish when many similar companies are very successfully communicating roll-outs and intentions with understandable caveats for specific release dates.

GW customers indeed have a bit of a reputation for outrage, but it's quite actually improving I think - at least with AoS.

[Spiky Norman]

31 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

On release schedule, I think GW should take a page from Wizards of the Coast. Letting your players know what you're working on, what's in the pipeline, and some of your goals and intentions are with releases goes an incredible way into relaxing stress from under-served armies and is also a great marketing and hype builder through the year.

Imagine regular Dev Talks where they just have a chat about the nurgle stuff they're working on rules wise, or the feeling and research that is going in to a new undead sculpt line currently in the autocad phase.

Wizard of the Coast have one advantage in that, as far as I know, there are no smaller businesses that makes 'count-as' cards for Magic. So they don't have to worry about that, which GW seems to be pretty concerned with.

[heywoah_twitch]

Writing "Black Lotus" on a basic island with black permanent marker is a lot easier than buying a reaper ogre, and yet magic thrives despite sharpies in every walgreens.

[Ollie Grimwood]

GWs release secrecy is to ensure all the hype and excitement is focus on what they are releasing next. They don't want people speculating on the release in six months time rather than what's out at the moment.  

[Killax]

Both forms of marketing have pros and cons, however trying to draw a parralel in creating cards versus plastic miniatures is really compairing a 2d product to a 3d one. The more physical something gets, the larger the room for error becomes.

In that same vein we also see players constantly wishing for Wizard to reprint card x or y or bring back mono Black (Undead) control and guess what? Wizards doesnt awner all those wishes either.

There are really only two functional routes to go, wait and enjoy what you have or enjoy other content that does have the newest models. Claiming or stating GW hates something is simply filling in unknowns with assumptions.

[Keldaur]

4 hours ago, Spiky Norman said:

Wizard of the Coast have one advantage in that, as far as I know, there are no smaller businesses that makes 'count-as' cards for Magic. So they don't have to worry about that, which GW seems to be pretty concerned with.

People can print them at will. It's not the card spoilers what matters in this argument tho, but the devs feedback to the community. Communication soothes a lot of anxieties, and it doesn't take that much.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Keldaur said:

Communication soothes a lot of anxieties, and it doesn't take that much.

It takes a lot. I manage communities for several companies, and it's a bigger task than it seems from without. I think between the Warhammer community site, social and the Twitch live streams there are a lot day to day communication channels with GW. And they are pretty good at it. But we as a community demand quite a lot. 

But you are right communications helps a lot. But in general it hurts more to state something and having to come back on it than to wait a bit before making sure it is right what you communicate. 

[Lysandestolpe]

I kinda like the current suspense format. Makes me eager every month to see new crumbs thrown my way. 

[RuneBrush]

13 hours ago, Spiky Norman said:

Wizard of the Coast have one advantage in that, as far as I know, there are no smaller businesses that makes 'count-as' cards for Magic. So they don't have to worry about that, which GW seems to be pretty concerned with.

That's a really good point and had slipped my mind.  GW have been stung by third party manufacturers previously and know they have a much stronger legal case if they have a physical (and released) model before a third party one.  Having artwork of a future product isn't enough to protect their IP in some countries.

[heywoah_twitch]

15 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

That's a really good point

It's not though, as anyone with a normal printer can make a $600 magic card for the cost one one sheet of paper and scissors.  This is a common occurrence in fact, and yet mtg thrives. 

[Killax]

23 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

That's a really good point and had slipped my mind.  GW have been stung by third party manufacturers previously and know they have a much stronger legal case if they have a physical (and released) model before a third party one.  Having artwork of a future product isn't enough to protect their IP in some countries.

While we are going massively offtopic there are multiple Chinese faux-Magic cards aswell which have driven WotC (Hasbro) to recreate their products in the last 8 years several times. While I'm currently not into MtG anymore this was one of the reasons as to why borders and card front designs changed (much like Warhammer character designs) in order to ensure at least the more expensive cards where even harder to copy.

However how Hasbro deals with it's marketing versus Games Workshop is really neither here not there. The time required to print card sets (on time) is but a fraction required to create new models and sprues, as above, it's 2d work versus 3d work, MtG has to worry about card design (could compair this to Warscroll design), playtesting and altering design, making art, creating a printable format, package and distribute the product. All these steps are also taken by Games Workshop but the added time required is print-testing, giving the first sprue feedback and repeat this process as often as twelve times before an new army can be 'released'.

One could say that the biggest difference between the two is that MtG doesn't really bother too much with selling the narrative for cards. In many cases very cool cards are very unique, there is no whole army of specific Black Daemon Planeswalkers (for example) and on the other hand GW does really bother with selling the narrative for their products. In many cases very cool hero models are supplied with very cool monsters, infantry units, cavalry units, a book, cards and more recently dices.

What Im basically trying to tell is that Hasbro doesn't really do a lot of mixed media products in one go, where GW does this almost in every case a new army is released.

6 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

It's not though, as anyone with a normal printer can make a $600 magic card for the cost one one sheet of paper and scissors.  This is a common occurrence in fact, and yet mtg thrives. 

And Games Workshop trives aswell...

Creating new products has very little to do with profits for such big compagnies however. In the end Death is only a fraction of GW's products and for whatever the reason might be they have reasons to focus on other product lines first. 
In many grand tournaments Death doesn't show up a lot. The thing is that in many cases this also is a self fufilling prophecy. This could be seen an indication of it's populairty. The release dates once planned for Death products might have been delayed because of them not being as popular of a show up as say Stormcast or Space Marines. In some cases certain planned release dates are pushed back for years.

Quite frankly if Death players want something as soon as possible the best way to archive that is to create good content yourself, technically fix Warscrolls for Death (mainly thinker with Keywords) and release it as a fan-made product (like was done with Tomb Kings). We have seen the succes of fanmade products in the past, including Age of Sigmar Skirmish and creating Army Lists digitally.
Spending time in creating this instead of complaining might just get the Death players somewhere  

[RuneBrush]

1 minute ago, heywoah_twitch said:

It's not though, as anyone with a normal printer can make a $600 magic card for the cost one one sheet of paper and scissors.  This is a common occurrence in fact, and yet mtg thrives. 

I think @Killax is right in saying we're not really comparing like for like (and veered off topic to boot ).

Your example isn't what I was driving at, yes anybody can print their own MtG card, however if you go to sell it WotC will come down on you like a ton of bricks.  GW have been stung in the past where a third-party manufacturer has used GW artwork to produce a model and then sell it, when it's been challenged, the courts have favoured the third-party manufacturer.  By not revealing  potential new models 6-months in advance, GW have stopped this happening, but it's meant we now have a one or two week reveal window.

[heywoah_twitch]

 And much worse art, sadly. 

[Xasz]

11 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

It's not though, as anyone with a normal printer can make a $600 magic card for the cost one one sheet of paper and scissors.  This is a common occurrence in fact, and yet mtg thrives. 

Which you cannot use in any tournament... you only print out proxies for testing purposes and if you want to play T2 FNM, Modern or anything else you better come with the real deal or go home. (remember, almost all tournaments are connected to WotC)

WotC is actually overall a questionable example. They've done nothing but alienate themselves from their player base over the last couple years (several rotations changes, no more premiums at prerelease, cheap card manufacturer, reprinting modern cards...). Even store owners are getting the finger as they force them to host 3x the tournaments they usually do or lose their status.

In a way, they are going the exact opposite direction GW has gone in the last two or three years.

[Killax]

Yeah the thing is that neither WotC or GW has the rights to sell the artwork specifically, as those remain to the creator.

What WotC has the rights to is sell the complete card product, with art included. Where GW has the rights to sell the complete model product, with art included. The moment we're just talking about art inspiring third party product nothing can really happen. The cover of Shadespire is also very similar to art designs from Heroes of the Storm or League of Legends and the like, the game however is completely different so in the end nothing really matters in terms of art alone. Another key difference is also made here, WotC sells card games (not just art) and GW sells miniature games (not just art). 

In the end though I don't think GW has any trouble with third parties now but it indeed can be a very valid reason as to why they don't reveal their designs completely every month. WotC does and it also has come back to bite them. As before, there are many faux-Magic cards on the market and the only way to know which is which is by physically handling them. A thing that isn't commonly done as many MtG players like to sleeve their cards (twice). At which point the difference is almost impossible to spot. 

[heywoah_twitch]

Some tourneys allow proxies just not official wotc ones, similar to how gw tournaments wouldn't be cool with a full reaper skeleton force. 

But he's right we're massively off topic, and my original point was wanting to continue the trend of more communication with the fans except in the form of better release info to generate hype and help some armies feel less ignored if they know something is in the pipe line. Which apparently isn't possible because of stupid 3rd party opportunists ruining it for everyone. 

[Captain Marius]

Bear in mind Shadespire was revealed back in feb/march, along with the whole kharadron range which wasnt fully released until may. 40k 8th was previewed daily for 2 months prior to release. The rumour engine teases stuff waaaay in advance.

Having experienced years and years of GW not revealing their releases until a week before, i think i prefer about a two week window. I see no benefit whatsoever to GW letting us know "oh we're putting together the rules for the new superaelves, theyll be out in 2019 or so."

Youll just get people ignoring the stuff currently being released, eg ive had 6 months to make a rational decision not to invest in Shadespire. I love the models and may have been susceptible to an impulse buy with less time to think about it, but all those cards and rules put me right off so im out.

I appreciate this differs for different people, but GW have to find that sweet spot thatll maximise their revenues, and keeping us in the dark about new releases is a proven means of doing so.

Meanwhile im happily rebasing ogors and freeguild to use with their new ghb points!

[Keldaur]

Of course there is business value on letting your clients know about your future releases so they can make informed decissions on future purchases.

First it gives assurance that your army of choice is not going completely neglected for years with no end in sight, so making purchases for that army is reasonable.

Second you don't get negative feedback which makes for happy and trusty customers eager to buy your products if you invest enough into informing them of what is going one. Some anecdotical evidence, around my area  players who were about to update their armies for 8th edition were instantly put off when their index was replaced in short notice, which otherwise they would had waited to purchase. Now they don't play because they see the same GW as ever (rightly so), or just download (no business benefit). If they released this information beforehand you would not get unhappy customers.

Hype buildup. A few months hype up works much better at getting people to buy your stuff rather than only because it is shiny and new.

And i disagree, the worst time for GW had been when.they reinforced as hard.as they could not spoiling the stuff which was in the works.

Currently they are speaking in advance about their products, and that is.good, but.from time to time you also should talk (as vague as possible) about what is in the works long term.

[Killax]

The thing is that with the rumour engine and with several interviews they talk about what's in the works long term...Even for death we've been revealed at least one Hero that is finished with likely more in the works.
The way I see this example (and many more) is that the customer asks for X, gets it and then asks for X+1, gets it and then asks for X+2 etc. 

In reality there is a maximum ammount of content you can produce after each other and still ensure sales. The way I see the current status is that GW has purposely focused a bit more now on Warhammer 40.000 because this still is one of their main games, before that, basically the last three years pre 8th edition 40K practically all focus went to Age of Sigmar. The fact of the matter is that other than Space Marines Codex and Death Guard Codex 40K is even working without any new model releases. Codex Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, Adepticus Mechanicus and likely Astra Militarum will all be getting their Codex but not with any new model releases.

 Does GW hate these factions? No, not at all  


 

[Keldaur]

5 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I think @Killax is right in saying we're not really comparing like for like (and veered off topic to boot ).

Your example isn't what I was driving at, yes anybody can print their own MtG card, however if you go to sell it WotC will come down on you like a ton of bricks.  GW have been stung in the past where a third-party manufacturer has used GW artwork to produce a model and then sell it, when it's been challenged, the courts have favoured the third-party manufacturer.  By not revealing  potential new models 6-months in advance, GW have stopped this happening, but it's meant we now have a one or two week reveal window.

I don't think they should reveal models to be honest. It is about factions, thoughts and what is in the works, and some words on what is going on. People shifted about the miniatures.being copied, so people answered about how you can copy those.cards too. Like you can also clone and a big etc of things. That's beyond the point, general vague pointers on the direction.they are taking build trust, and that doesn't require GW to tell me they are releasing models, but "a unit for nighthaunts designed to.fix some of their core problems with penalties to hit" for example.

[Keldaur]

It doesn't matter if a customer is asking X+1 once he got X, what matters is if informing them about X was reasonable within the game and the business, or if X+1 is reasonable aswell. I don't think that what the OP is talking is unreasonable, even if i disagree with some of his points about the GH. 

 

Also - about vs magic vs warhammer. The issue with fakes, clones or different companies models gets fixed through promoting competitive scenes. 

[Killax]

6 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

but "a unit for nighthaunts designed to.fix some of their core problems with penalties to hit" for example.

What specifically is the fans of Death stopping from creating house-ruled Battletome's that adress this issue?

Really for the love of me I don't know why fans did came up with a whole Tomb Kings Battletome but the other factions who have enough fans do not seem to be capable to exactly adress these core problems.

In many cases I will agree with you that certain Warscrolls in Death should have Keyword X or Y aswell or instead of Z. However at the same time I see nobody trying to accumulate all those issues and present a possible awnser available to at least casual play. Be it in Open, Narrative or Matched play. 

There is a lot you can do with fan creations but somehow nobody is willing to create what they want to see?