The dreaded double turn

[Kodos der Henker]

Alternating Phases would be enough and don't need additional rules (and double turn can stay)

[XReN]

4 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

I just think it's time GW started accepting what other tabletop wargame rules have been doing for ages now. 

Per unit activation. 
We already do it in the combat phase. Why should the other phases be different? 
You can even do it in a few different ways. Eg:
unit 1 activates and does all it's things, hero-move-shoot-charge-combat 
or
unit 1 activates and moves, unit 2 activates and moves, etc etc etc. 

It's more tactical, more dynamic and removes downtime keeping both players engaged the whole way through. 

How many actual wargames use that? Skirmishes with 10 to 20 models per player aren't the same thing.
Implementing alternating activation even on phases will still change a game a lot and it will require a lot of work to make that change, for example I drop a shooting unit from Celestial Realm and it immediatly get shreded. Also it will kill my back to lean over the table for 6 hours without taking a seat because when there is constant action you can't take a break. 

Also I'd like to point out that turn system have it's own tactical aspect, which is not worse than alternating activation have. 

[Vextol]

I don't think alternating activation is the be all and end all.  I've played games that kind of had it.  I give it a meh.  There's a lot of time spent moving things around and not getting a lot of combat.  

I like that the turn system basically guarantees that you will see some combat because the opposition can't always move away. 

Also, without serious reworks, alternation of any kind makes shooters very very strong.  You can't get close enough before they move away again.  Then you're getting shot and have made very little progress. 

I still think all you need to do is give the players some kind of control over initiative or an alternative benefit to choosing turn order if you win.  It's no scroll or army reworks and easy enough to implement.

[Chikout]

 I was listening to warhammer weekly the other day, and Tom brought up the idea of alternating activation for the shooting phase. I liked this idea a lot. It could be introduced without impacting the rules of the game significantly. A lot of people like the tactical challange of the double turn but dislike spending lots of time doing nothing.

This would help both sides of the argument. 

Another interesting idea is introducing more abilities that mess with your opponents turn. How about an ability for certain units that let them move in the other players turn, or an option to declare a sequence braking charge if an enemy unit moves within range? I’m not a game designer, so there could be unforeseen consequences of this, but the game could be very interesting if they sprinkled these rules through the game, in the way they are doing for fight at the start of the combat phase .

Gw introduced the endless spell movement mechanic in order to make the play experience in the enemy’s turn more interesting. I think Gw hasn’t fully explored that space. There is a lot they could do to make the game more interactive in the other players turn. This could add to the uniqueness of AOS rather than going back to old ways, or copying modern skirmish games.

[Joseph Mackay]

alternating unit activations will slow down the game and cause a lot of problems around remember which unit has already gone, alternating phases like Middle Earth SBG does it could work though.

the double turn needs to go away. too many games can be won or lost with a priority roll because a lot of armies nowadays do way too much damage compared to when aos first came out. as a matter of fact, over the years as things have changed and new stuff has been added, theres been a lot of improvements and awesome additions to the game, however Mortal Wounds are way too common now and they sort of ruin the fun of the game, a lot of armies cant do mortal wounds and those same armies cant do anything about them either. the ammount of mortal wounds certain armies throw around make the double turn so much worse. the game needs to go back to the early days where mortal wounds were rare

[AaronWilson]

One thing that would have to change with no double turn mechanic is the ability to control who goes first via one drop batallions. I know as a Sylvaneth player I nearly always guarantee control of the first turn. It'd simply be far too strong if I could do that with no chance of being double turned back.

[Requizen]

6 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

alternating unit activations will slow down the game and cause a lot of problems around remember which unit has already gone, alternating phases like Middle Earth SBG does it could work though.

the double turn needs to go away. too many games can be won or lost with a priority roll because a lot of armies nowadays do way too much damage compared to when aos first came out. as a matter of fact, over the years as things have changed and new stuff has been added, theres been a lot of improvements and awesome additions to the game, however Mortal Wounds are way too common now and they sort of ruin the fun of the game, a lot of armies cant do mortal wounds and those same armies cant do anything about them either. the ammount of mortal wounds certain armies throw around make the double turn so much worse. the game needs to go back to the early days where mortal wounds were rare

While I don't desire alternating activations (works for other systems but I don't want it in AoS), "remembering which unit has already gone" is as simple as putting a token next to it. That's far from the reason I would reference to not use alternating activation. There's already alternation in Kill Team (and possibly in Warcry) and it doesn't prevent the game from being fun.

If your games are always being won or lost on the back of a double turn, I think that can be resolved by learning to play around it. MWs are more plentiful now, but few of them just happen without any way to stop it - either by denying spells, positioning to deny ranges, or disabling specific units before they "pop off".

[Televiper11]

I thought I hated the double turn. Then I finally got one and tabled my opponent. Now I love it.

[Overread]

1 hour ago, Televiper11 said:

I thought I hated the double turn. Then I finally got one and tabled my opponent. Now I love it.

You'll be back to hating it when your opponent gets one on you and tables you

 

And that's the issue - sure its great to get one, but at the same time is it really that great? Is winning because you got two turns in a row that rewarding? Furthermore if its a case of "its great to get and horrid to play against" then surely its not a good feature because it means the enjoyment of the game is coming down to, quite literally, a handful of dice rolls. Perhaps 4 rolls (assuming that by turn 5 the game is often basically over or at least close to the end anyway) that can make or break the game for a player. 

Personally that doesn't seem good to me, esp if the end result is one player feeling bad because they lost to the mechanic rather than anything else.

 

 

 

Trying to play around it is also hard to impossible. Holding units back in a game which is otherwise very fast paced and in a game where many units need to be in close combat to work is an odd approach to the game. Furthermore it means that armies which can hold units in reserve are more "fun" and adpatable to it than armies which have it all on the table to start with. 
The core problem though is that its totally random, you can't improve nor weaken your chances of getting it nor your opponent getting it. Because of its utterly random nature and because games are only 6 turns (at best) long its really hard to work around. No if games were 60 turns long a doubleturn here and there wouldn't be an issue; but with only 6 turns getting two back to back is a BIG deal. It's a full 1/3rd of your game time. 

[Televiper11]

Yeah, I disliked it when it happened to me repeatedly but now that I got one, I get it. It can give someone who is behind a chance to come back, even win. Also, the randomness -- battles are often random irl so this mechanic allows for that.

[PJetski]

Hot take:

If you put yourself in a position that you can be tabled by a double turn with no defensive measures in place then it is your own failing. It's a strategy game - you must plan ahead for that kind of possibility.

[Overread]

8 minutes ago, Televiper11 said:

Yeah, I disliked it when it happened to me repeatedly but now that I got one, I get it. It can give someone who is behind a chance to come back, even win. Also, the randomness -- battles are often random irl so this mechanic allows for that.

Thing is the double turn doesn't trigger based on battle state. If it were built so that an underdog got a fighting chance it would be better (though honestly how do to that would be an endless argument I suspect); but as it stands it can give two equally standing armies an unbalanced element. First or second turn into the game if someone gets it then that player is getting a major bonus over their opponent at a key point in the game. It's not giving the underdog a chance its giving a player on equal footing more of a chance to win. Not through anything the player nor the players army can do - they've not "paid for this" and its not experience nor skill its pure luck.

 

As for IRL well IRL no army EVER lined up and balanced its points for a fair fight. They rolled up and most wanted to have the most troops they could to win on the day. If you were playing IRL you'd not leave half your army at home; you'd bring the whole darn force. Also the game already has a lot of dice rolls and random; the double turn is just way beyond almost all of them in the impact it has on the game state. 

 

I'd love to see it retire to open play which is where it should be. Let GW retire it there and add a few other random rules like it for open play ideas

[Televiper11]

Yeah, IRL we'd shoot back too. 

Anyway, a way to trigger it for an underdog would be interesting but impossible to implement.

[Overread]

Just now, PJetski said:

Hot take:

If you put yourself in a position that you can be tabled by a double turn with no defensive measures in place then it is your own failing. It's a strategy game - you must plan ahead for that kind of possibility.

But how do you achieve that - specifically how can a player do that. 

The only way is to hold back at the back of the table. At which point you've handed objectives to your opponent. The only other way is holding units in reserve, which only works up until around turn 4 (most reserves held any longer vanish in most battletomes). Again you're basically going to reward dwarves but armies like Daughters of Khaine or Slaanesh - ergo glass cannon close combat forces - are really hampered. They can't just sit back and wait out the game until the double turn isn't as much of a risk. 

 

And that's the issue. Actually planning for it is darn hard to impossible. It seriously limits your tactical choice and its far too defensive for a game which is aggressive in nature. 

I'd be right there with you if, like I said earlier, there were 60 turns not 6. If the game were longer then defensive play would become more viable beause there'd be more time to let it swing the game. Right now you might get one perhaps two turns where you can hold back before you really have to charge in - unless the game is defensive battleplan and you're defending; or if your army is basically all archers and thus can deal damage even when holding back. 

[Zanzou]

8 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

One thing that would have to change with no double turn mechanic is the ability to control who goes first via one drop batallions. I know as a Sylvaneth player I nearly always guarantee control of the first turn. It'd simply be far too strong if I could do that with no chance of being double turned back.

I disagree.  First of all the enemy can tactically position if you 1 drop. Second, the amount of points and unit requirements you have to give up as a sylvaneth player for a one drop are expensive.  Third there's no such thing as far too strong in a post-FEC battletome world apparently >_>

Edited April 24, 2019 by Zanzou

[PJetski]

4 minutes ago, Overread said:

But how do you achieve that - specifically how can a player do that. 

The only way is to hold back at the back of the table. At which point you've handed objectives to your opponent. The only other way is holding units in reserve, which only works up until around turn 4 (most reserves held any longer vanish in most battletomes). Again you're basically going to reward dwarves but armies like Daughters of Khaine or Slaanesh - ergo glass cannon close combat forces - are really hampered. They can't just sit back and wait out the game until the double turn isn't as much of a risk. 

It's hard to have a discussion about specifics because there are too many variables to consider, but in broad strokes you need to use scenery to your advantage, include some potent defensive effects (powerful unbinds, endless spells, speed bump units, screening units) and know the enemy threat ranges. There are acceptable losses you need to take in order to keep a good position - let them kill your pawns so your Rook or Knight can kill their Queen.

Endless Spells are phenomenal for defending against double turns. You either force your opponent to try to dispel them -risking failure and giving up their own spells - or they allow your spells to mess with them. Setting up a Palisade or some Geminids ahead of your army that can both restrict movement and greatly reduce the damage they deal.

Part of the matched play game is building a list that can react to changing battlefield conditions. An army full of slow melee units is not viable because it lacks the speed and range to threaten your opponent unless they are silly enough to walk right into you.

You can't plan for everything but it's wise to have some kind of backup plan or an insurance policy for when the dice don't go your way.

[Requizen]

22 minutes ago, Overread said:

But how do you achieve that - specifically how can a player do that. 

The only way is to hold back at the back of the table. At which point you've handed objectives to your opponent. The only other way is holding units in reserve, which only works up until around turn 4 (most reserves held any longer vanish in most battletomes). Again you're basically going to reward dwarves but armies like Daughters of Khaine or Slaanesh - ergo glass cannon close combat forces - are really hampered. They can't just sit back and wait out the game until the double turn isn't as much of a risk. 

 

And that's the issue. Actually planning for it is darn hard to impossible. It seriously limits your tactical choice and its far too defensive for a game which is aggressive in nature. 

I'd be right there with you if, like I said earlier, there were 60 turns not 6. If the game were longer then defensive play would become more viable beause there'd be more time to let it swing the game. Right now you might get one perhaps two turns where you can hold back before you really have to charge in - unless the game is defensive battleplan and you're defending; or if your army is basically all archers and thus can deal damage even when holding back. 

"Specifically" is impossible in a game with as many armies, missions, setups, and situations as Warhammer. Here's some tips if you've got the top of the turn:

• Don't go ham into a risky position. This seems obvious, but a lot of people will overcommit to a spot where they have a only a middling chance of dealing the requisite damage, only to get smashed when their opponent gets a double. 
  • This includes things like throwing your entire army out to a spot where you need mostly >8" charges. If you fail, you're just standing there and your opponent gets a relatively easy charge.
• When there's something big and scary, like a Terrorgheist or Stardrake, measure their distances. A Terrorgheist can move 14", then there's a spell to let it run and charge, and then it gets a charge. Maximum threat distance - 32". Wow, that's scary! But unless they use a CP, the average threat distance is ~21". That's much more manageable. Can you put a Wizard in dispel distance of the enemy Wizard with Run + Charge? That'll cut the distance down quite a bit. 
• Against shooting, sacrifice aggressive positioning and full move distances to abuse line of sight. Also, make sure your board has enough line of sight blocking terrain, because the game is pretty broken without at least a couple pieces. It's worth not sprinting up the table if you can hide for the duration of a double turn.
• Against things that aren't Terrorgheists or Evocators, utilize the 3" engagement distance. If they charge and obliterate your chaff in front, but in the process pull in your scary melee unit, then not only do you get to swing, if they get the double turn then they're stuck in and you can fight again! 
• Rather than hammer on offensive buffs, if you're on the top of turn, consider throwing out solid defensive buffs that you otherwise might not consider. Realm Spells to impose -hit buffs, Mystic Shield, etc, all may seem weaker than getting rerolls to hit or +1 damage, but if your opponent gets the double, you can rely on those otherwise "lesser" defensive spells to last for 2 enemy turns while you sit back. 
• Layer your positioning to limit enemy movement. Those Daughters can move fast and then run and charge, sure, but if you put a chaff unit right in front of them, they'll be unable to move their full distance and either not be able to reach your important units, or be forced to spend a turn fighting ****** units that they otherwise would ignore.
• Learn which units you can give up. Not just chaff - sometimes you can sacrifice an important unit to soak up the punishment of a double turn. That unit of Kurnoth Hunters that does a lot of your heavy lifting is a lot less important than Alarielle, but is a very juicy target to your opponent. They can use the double turn to get to Allarielle and potentially kill her, or you can position the Hunters to die (sad) but save Alarielle (yay). 
• Utilize redundant units on objectives. 2 units of 5 Liberators holding a single objective feels like overkill, but if that one monster gets to you, they have to split their attacks. If you only have one unit there, it's very easy to get focused and blasted off, and then taking that objective back can be near impossible. Two units means they can't just yeehaw and punch a unit out for control. Doesn't help much against hordes, but even then you can position your units to force them to pile in awkward ways and not get their full force at once, perhaps slowing them down enough.
• Speaking of Objectives, that 6" hold radius is very important! In some situations, you want to just touch the "back edge" of it - that way, your opponent has a much larger charge and might not be able to get all her units onto an objective to contest it. Sometimes you want to put them as far forward as possible - straddling that 6" line with your unit so even when charged they'll prevent the enemy from getting on it. Of course, with the double they'll kill the unit and then just walk on to it... but that's a whole turn you denied point scoring, and points win games. 

Hope these help!

[Zadolix]

Sometimes when I get the double turn it is the only thing that keeps me from getting utterly destroyed sometimes with my dispossessed. Usually though if there's a lot of melee going on the double turn against me usually spells certain doom. I'm trying to figure out how to handle the double turn with dispossessed, on the one hand if the opponent gets it it can be good as my shield wall ability just keeps going but on the flipside against some armies (looking at you LoN) some opponents synergeries and tome abilites are so powerful it's difficult to comeback.