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Allegiances and Factions and Allies


Gilby

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17 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Only individual factions have ally lists.

So if you're using a mixture of (for example, battleline) units that don't come from a single Faction list then by definition you aren't using a faction and so can't have allies - you're just making a grand alliance army.

Where does it say that though? Page number.

I don't see anything saying you can't take warscrolls from multiple factions and then choose 400 points of allies from one of those factions. In most cases this is useless as taking from multiple factions will leave you with nothing but the Grand Alliance anyway and then there's no point in claiming some of the units as allies anyway.

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25 minutes ago, Gilby said:

Where does it say that though? Page number.

I don't see anything saying you can't take warscrolls from multiple factions and then choose 400 points of allies from one of those factions. In most cases this is useless as taking from multiple factions will leave you with nothing but the Grand Alliance anyway and then there's no point in claiming some of the units as allies anyway.

That's exactly the point. It doesn't quote it, because it is unnecessary. If you're mixing and matching factions, allies are irrelevant because you're doing a GA force, and don't qualify for a factional allegiance, and you aren't taking allies, you're taking other units from your GA.

Where this is important is when you have "battleline if" units - at which point the factional allegiance is enforced anyway, and again you can't take from another faction without using the ally rules.

Page 76.

"Allied units can have a different allegiance to the rest of the army". I.e. apart from allies, the rest of the army has the same allegiance. If you're mixing factions, your only shared allegiance is grand alliance, so you're not using a faction, so you don't get the ally table for having that faction's allegiance.

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I think theres a key misunderstanding here where people are specifically interpreting Blades of Khorne faction and Khorne allegiance (etc) to be the same thing, when I think it's clear that they are not (same with all the other Chaos god allegiances).

The impact of them being distinct is if you take your Tzeentch army from both Disciples and Slaves, you can't take any Allies because you are taking units from more than one faction (UNLESS you are taking only 400pts of Disciples OR Slaves PLUS allied units from the Allies list of your main faction).

One of the implications of being able to add any same-mark units to your Blades or Disciples army is you could add Archaon without using Allies points, AND he could benefit from your Destiny Dice/Blood Tithe - i dont think this was ever anyones intent.

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1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Page 76.

"Allied units can have a different allegiance to the rest of the army".

I.e. apart from allies, the rest of the army has the same allegiance. If you're mixing factions, your only shared <S>allegiance</S> faction is grand alliance, so you're not using a faction, so you don't get the ally table for having that faction's allegiance.

Yep! It is possible to mix multiple Faction lists and have access to more than just Allegiance:Chaos.

However, if you use more than one you don't get Allies and you have to meet the requirements for the Allegiance.

e.g. 

Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos 

Forces pulled from: Blades of Khorne, Slaves to Darkness (Marked Khorne), Daemons of Chaos (Marked Khorne), Everchosen (Archaon, also Marked Khorne)

This would allow either:

Allegiance:Chaos or Allegiance:Khorne

Allies: None allowed. (Due to Grand Alliances having no Allies List.)

And everyone would get access to the Allegiance Battletrait, as they all meet the requirement of the Allegiance.

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1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

If you're mixing factions, your only shared allegiance is grand alliance, so you're not using a faction, so you don't get the ally table for having that faction's allegiance.

Yeah you're right :P if you're going GA, then allies are irrelevant, so I guess I gave a bad example!  What if you mix StD marked with Khorne and BoK though? Would you consider those 2 factions in that case?

 

 From my interpretation of the rules, if you are aiming to use the Khorne allegiance then you take from the BoK allies list due to the rule on page 74 about allies being allies of your chosen allegiance.

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2 hours ago, Gilby said:
8 hours ago, Gilby said:
  1. Pick ALLEGIANCE you want your army to be
  2. Look at the corresponding FACTION table for that ALLEGIANCE (from step 1) for the list of allegiances you can take as ALLIES
  3. Identify the warscrolls in your list that don't have the keyword to be in your army's ALLEGIANCE (step 1)
  4. IF that list is wholly from the list of ALLIES (step 2) AND is less than 400 points, your army is your chosen ALLEGIANCE (step 1)

 

 

Please (anyone) post a list that can make the above not work. If it works then we can stop this as we have the answer! Nobody is going to read 5 pages of forum circular argument, 4 lines of simple instructions however is doable...

Step 1. I choose Allegiance:Nurgle ... (That will give me Blightkings as Battleline!)

Step 2: Choose Faction that matches.... hmm

So what do I have to choose : Daemons of Nurgle, Slaves to Darkness:with mark of Nurgle, Nurgle Rotbringers, Tamurkahn's Horde, Ohhh Archaon has Nurgle ... So Maybe Everchosen, Clan Pestilens... 

Step 3) wow ... there sure are a lot of different Allies possibilities from these different Allegiance:Nurgle forces .... Wait... I have stuff from multiple Alliance:Nurgle legitimate armies ... what Ally table do I use? Wow ... Can I use Allies and still take my Putrid Blightkings as Battleline? And Keep my Alliance:Nurgle....

----

Basically it doesn't work well for the Chaos Deity alliances.

If, on the other hand one were to choose from the faction first... 

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22 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Step 1. I choose Allegiance:Nurgle ... (That will give me Blightkings as Battleline!)

Step 2: Choose Faction that matches.... hmm

So what do I have to choose : Daemons of Nurgle, Slaves to Darkness:with mark of Nurgle, Nurgle Rotbringers, Tamurkahn's Horde, Ohhh Archaon has Nurgle ... So Maybe Everchosen, Clan Pestilens... 

Step 3) wow ... there sure are a lot of different Allies possibilities from these different Allegiance:Nurgle forces .... Wait... I have stuff from multiple Alliance:Nurgle legitimate armies ... what Ally table do I use? Wow ... Can I use Allies and still take my Putrid Blightkings as Battleline? And Keep my Alliance:Nurgle....

----

Basically it doesn't work well for the Chaos Deity alliances.

If, on the other hand one were to choose from the faction first... 

Nurgle surely is an odd one.

It works for BoK, DoT and HoS if you consider them synonymous for Khorne, Tzeentch and Slaanesh.

(I'd consider the Nurgle equivalent being Daemons of Nurgle + Rotbringers, the ally-table is equal anyway, but yeah it's weird until a book drops... right now it's houserule material)

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Nurgle is the odd one that shows the issue with an exclamation point, but the issue isn't actually any different than the issue there is for BoK, DoT, and HoS - there's units that don't appear in those factions that have the keywords you're looking for in both Slaves to Darkness and Everchosen. 

Without more from GW, I think the only way to make it work properly is to consider allies an advantage that comes at the cost of taking all your non-allied units from a single faction (ie, a single category off pitched battle profiles from GH2). Under this approach, for factions that don't have a keyword matching their name, the allies let you ignore the lack of a keyword that appears on all battlescrolls in that faction when determining allegiance. 

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1 hour ago, Gilby said:

Yeah you're right :P if you're going GA, then allies are irrelevant, so I guess I gave a bad example!  What if you mix StD marked with Khorne and BoK though? Would you consider those 2 factions in that case?

 

 From my interpretation of the rules, if you are aiming to use the Khorne allegiance then you take from the BoK allies list due to the rule on page 74 about allies being allies of your chosen allegiance.

Yes, they are two factions. BoK and StD.

The fact they share an allegiance beyond Chaos (i.e. Khorne) doesn't mean they are suddenly the same faction. It's still a GA Chaos army.

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For Battalions goes the same as with normal warscrolls?

As example, I'd like to play a list with Bloodmarked Warband from the Everchosen Faction. (which I cannot take if I chose BoK or StD Faction?!)

Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos

Allies: none available

Allegiance: Chaos or Khorne (if I chose later, I get their abilities, items, BLifs etc.)

 

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23 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Yes, they are two factions. BoK and StD.

The fact they share an allegiance beyond Chaos (i.e. Khorne) doesn't mean they are suddenly the same faction. It's still a GA Chaos army.

And if you're going Khorne Allegiance you can use the Khore (BoK) allies?

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10 minutes ago, Xasz said:

For Battalions goes the same as with normal warscrolls?

As example, I'd like to play a list with Bloodmarked Warband from the Everchosen Faction. (which I cannot take if I chose BoK or StD Faction?!)

Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos

Allies: none available

Allegiance: Chaos or Khorne (if I chose later, I get their abilities, items, BLifs etc.)

 

Are you looking to include non-Khorne allies in your army? If everything you want to include has Khorne keyword, then there is no reason to worry about factions and allies. Allies are the only advantage to restricting yourself to a faction.  If you don't need non-khorne allies, then take a grand alliance chaos faction army, and you don't need to worry about any of this. 

If you want to include non-khorne allies, then the  Bloodmarked Warband, as an everchosen option, would need to be part of your allies. 

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2 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Are you looking to include non-Khorne allies in your army? If everything you want to include has Khorne keyword, then there is no reason to worry about factions and allies. Allies are the only advantage to restricting yourself to a faction.  If you don't need non-khorne allies, then take a grand alliance chaos faction army, and you don't need to worry about any of this. 

If you want to include non-khorne allies, then the  Bloodmarked Warband, as an everchosen option, would need to be part of your allies. 

Could I request a reference to the rules about this 'all warscrolls must be from one faction before you can have allies from that faction' point of view please?

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1 minute ago, Gilby said:

Could I request a reference to the rules about this 'all warscrolls must be from one faction before you can have allies from that faction' point of view please?

FACTIONS (and Allies)
FACTIONS & ALLIES Pitched Battle profiles are split into a number of factions. For example, Gors and Ungors are part of the BRAYHERDS faction. A model or warscroll battalion’s faction will usually appear as a keyword. Some factions include a list of allies. For example, the BRAYHERD faction can have Chaos Gargants, Monsters of Chaos, Thunderscorn and Warherds as allies. In a Pitched Battle, you can spend some of the points for your army on a faction’s allies without changing the army’s allegiance. For example, a BRAYHERD Battlehost could include 400 points of Chaos Gargants, Monsters of Chaos, Thunderscorn, and/or Warherds, and still have the BRAYHERDS allegiance. Thiswould allow the BRAYHERD units in the Battlehost – but not their allies – to use Brayherd allegiance abilities. Additionally, any Bestigors and Ungor Raiders in the army would count as Battleline units.

Page 86, GH2017

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I use the Brayherd quote as my test for what they mean by allegiance. You have to tweak it for factions where the name doesn't match the allegiance (for example, DoT and Tzeentch).

 

Tzaangors and Kairic Acolytes are part of the DISCIPLES OF TZEENTCH faction. A model or warscroll battalion’s faction will usually appear as a keyword. Some factions include a list of allies. For example, the DISCIPLES OF TZEENTCH faction can have (list of tzeentch allies) as allies. In a Pitched Battle, you can spend some of the points for your army on a faction’s allies without changing the army’s allegiance. For example, a DISCIPLES OF TZEENTCH Battlehost could include 400 points of (list of tzeentch allies), and still have the TZEENTCH allegiance. This would allow the TZEENTCH units in the Battlehost – but not their allies – to use TZEENTCH allegiance abilities. Additionally, any Bestigors and Ungor Raiders in the army would count as Battleline units. 

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1 minute ago, decker_cky said:

FACTIONS (and Allies)
FACTIONS & ALLIES Pitched Battle profiles are split into a number of factions. For example, Gors and Ungors are part of the BRAYHERDS faction. A model or warscroll battalion’s faction will usually appear as a keyword. Some factions include a list of allies. For example, the BRAYHERD faction can have Chaos Gargants, Monsters of Chaos, Thunderscorn and Warherds as allies. In a Pitched Battle, you can spend some of the points for your army on a faction’s allies without changing the army’s allegiance. For example, a BRAYHERD Battlehost could include 400 points of Chaos Gargants, Monsters of Chaos, Thunderscorn, and/or Warherds, and still have the BRAYHERDS allegiance. Thiswould allow the BRAYHERD units in the Battlehost – but not their allies – to use Brayherd allegiance abilities. Additionally, any Bestigors and Ungor Raiders in the army would count as Battleline units.

Page 86, GH2017

Thanks! :D

Although, there is no mention here of restrictions or requirements for claiming a faction the same way there is for an allegiance? 

 

 

 

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GW was less explicit than they should have been, and they gave the wrong example. 

My interpretation of faction is that it's just their way of saying "pick your army from a restricted list, get the benefits of an allegiance while including some allies".  So the restriction is basically what they describe in the example. In a pitched battle, if you take your army from a faction, you can include 400 pts of allies without changing the army's allegiance. 

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So the gist of what @TheOtherJosh describes is, that if I build a mixed Khorne (e.g. BoK and StD table but entirely marked), Tzeentch or any list that uses more than one Faction-Table, I cannot take allies.

If I chose BoK and I want Bloodmarked Warband, I either have to forfeit allies and go for Grand Alliance Chaos faction or I have to ally Everchosen and use 100 points for the battalion.

I just want to confirm if I understand it correctly.

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That's how I read the rules.

It's tough, but most affected armies have a LOT of options to make pure allegiance armies using Grand Alliance Chaos. At least your Khorne aren't as badly hit as Nurgle (which is split over five factions: Nurgle's Rotbringers, Daemons of Nurgle, Clan Pestilens, Slaves to Darkness, and Everchosen). 

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5 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Scenario 1: "I want to use Monsters and Get Allegiance:Slaanesh ..."

Factions List: Hosts of Slaanesh

Legal Ally: Monsters of Chaos AND Slaves to Darkness (Allies not available to be used as Battleline)

Legal Allegiance Options: Slaanesh OR Chaos

Scenario 2: "I'm not taking the Chimera and I want StoD as Battleline

Factions List: Hosts of Slaanesh AND Slaves to a Darkness Marked as Slaanesh ... (This would require using the Grand Alliance Chaos entire list) This allows both Hosts of Slaanesh and StoD forces to be used as Battleline. Final "Legal Faction is Grand Alliance Chaos"

Legal Allies:NONE (Grand Alliance Chaos has no Allies list)

Legal Alliances: Slaanesh OR Chaos

Scenario 3: "I want the Chimera... and I want StoD and Hosts of Slaanesh Battleline..."

Factions Chosen: Hosts of Slaanesh AND Slaves to Darkness Marked as Slaanesh AND Monsters of Chaos (This requires using Grand Alliance Chaos as your base 'Faction') This allows Hosts of Slaanesh and StoD as Battleline.

Legal Allies: Legal Allies:NONE (Grand Alliance Chaos has no Allies list)

Legal Alliances: Chaos

 

Remember for RAW as it exists now:

You can't take Allies if you are using multiple Pitched Army Profile faction lists to build the "non-ally" section of your list. As that means that you're using the Grand Alliance.

Determination of "Legal Pitched Battle Profiles Faction + Allies" is different than "What Allegiances can I take?"

You can still meet Allegiance Requirements and take your forces from the Grand Alliance overall list ... as long as it meets the requirements for the Allegiance. You just can't take Allies.

Mostly with you on this, but…

In scenario 1, can my marauders benefit from Slaanesh allegiance abilities? They have the Slaanesh keyword but they are also allies…

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2 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Mostly with you on this, but…

In scenario 1, can my marauders benefit from Slaanesh allegiance abilities? They have the Slaanesh keyword but they are also allies…

The post linked below is my interpretation of how the "Brayherd" quote on p.86 needs to read to make sense in the context of the chaos marks . For the issues you raise above, the last three "BRAYHERDS" need to refer to the allegiance and not the faction in order to make sense (I struck out the last sentence because there are no units that are battleline for allegiance tzeentch, but that would also be a reference to allegiance and not faction). 

http://www.tga.community/forums/topic/11491-allegiances-and-factions-and-allies/?page=6&tab=comments#comment-129379

 

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21 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

In scenario 1, can my marauders benefit from Slaanesh allegiance abilities? They have the Slaanesh keyword but they are also allies…

Yes. 

“Before you select your general’s command trait, pick one of the following hosts for the army to belong to. The associated traits apply to all SLAANESH units from your army for the duration ofthe battle..." p.140 GHB 2017

The unit is Part of your Army. And meets the requirements.

Brayherds is a bad example in this regards because Brayherds is both Faction and Allegiance. And Brayherds Factions Allies are unable to meet the Allegiance Ability requirements.

So, if the unit is unable to meet the Allegiance requirement, they do not get the benefit of the Allegiance Abilities. (Even in the case of Allies where you can 'ignore' their Faction for the sake of determining Allegiance.)

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8 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Yes. 

“Before you select your general’s command trait, pick one of the following hosts for the army to belong to. The associated traits apply to all SLAANESH units from your army for the duration ofthe battle..." p.140 GHB 2017

The unit is Part of your Army. And meets the requirements.

Brayherds is a bad example in this regards because Brayherds is both Faction and Allegiance. And Brayherds Factions Allies are unable to meet the Allegiance Ability requirements.

So, if the unit is unable to meet the Allegiance requirement, they do not get the benefit of the Allegiance Abilities. (Even in the case of Allies where you can 'ignore' their Faction for the sake of determining Allegiance.)

I think he's concerned about these two sentences from page 86 of GHB2016:

"For example, a BRAYHERD Battlehost could include 400 points of Chaos Gargants, Monsters of Chaos, Thunderscorn, and/or Warherds, and still have the BRAYHERDS allegiance. This would allow the BRAYHERD units in the Battlehost – but not their allies – to use Brayherd allegiance abilities."

If the bolded brayherd refers to faction, it actually could be interpreted to restrict allies from using brayherd allegiance abilities. If it refers to allegiance, as it should, it avoids that issue. 

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43 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

I think he's concerned about these two sentences from page 86 of GHB2016:

"For example, a BRAYHERD Battlehost could include 400 points of Chaos Gargants, Monsters of Chaos, Thunderscorn, and/or Warherds, and still have the BRAYHERDS allegiance. This would allow the BRAYHERD units in the Battlehost – but not their allies – to use Brayherd allegiance abilities."

If the bolded brayherd refers to faction, it actually could be interpreted to restrict allies from using brayherd allegiance abilities. If it refers to allegiance, as it should, it avoids that issue. 

The inset text on page 116 is extremely clear. "Only units in the army with the appropriate allegiance keyword can benefit from these abilities."

Allies don't get to use the cool stuff - except situations where you get keyword shenanigans, like StD with Slaanesh.

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