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Allegiances and Factions and Allies


Gilby

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Just now, TheOtherJosh said:

So, we agree.

You're taking a Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos Army. And Choosing to use Allegiance:Chaos.

Well, the faction/allegiance distinction is artificial as I have said.

But aside from that you seemed to be making the point that you needed a different faction (chaos) and allegiance (StD) to take Sayl and Nightmaw, who "would otherwise not be available as an option in a Pitched Battle army". I'm saying that actually its much simpler than you put it and they can be taken by any army that has the chaos allegiance - there's no need to introduce a notion of faction that is different to allegiance.

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23 minutes ago, inunn said:

Well, the faction/allegiance distinction is artificial as I have said.

But aside from that you seemed to be making the point that you needed a different faction (chaos) and allegiance (StD) to take Sayl and Nightmaw, who "would otherwise not be available as an option in a Pitched Battle army". I'm saying that actually its much simpler than you put it and they can be taken by any army that has the chaos allegiance - there's no need to introduce a notion of faction that is different to allegiance.

It might have been better said that they are not usable in anything other than a Faction:Grand Alliance Chaos army. (What Allegiance you get depends on what other unit choices you want from there and basically boils down to either Allegiance:StoD or Chaos.) 

Fortunately, there are multiple Faction names that are different than Allegiance names.

Choosing "Allegiance" over "Pitched Battle Faction Army List" modifies the listmaking choices by the players. These choices that GW has codified in the mechanism of the Pitched Battle Profiles has changed (and will continue to change) he meta and allows control of overpowered units by GW in combination with strong Allegiance abilities and Allies.

It also allows GW to encourage thematic armies in more than just Open and Narrative play.

The great thing is that in keeping things separate, GW can give Allegiance Abilities specific to those Factions down the road ... merely by combining keywords. (Or adding keywords to a Warscroll.) 

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12 hours ago, hobgoblinclub said:

Yes you can create an army using everything with the Chaos keyword. You'd take allegiance 'Chaos'. 

Allies allows you to take random units, which don't share the keyword of the rest of the army, without breaking allegiance. Not only does it add to the game it's massive! It's probably the single biggest change in GHB17. It allows even the smallest factions, those with limited unit choices, to suppliment there forces where there are deficiencies. This leveling the playing field for all. 

The thing remains that if this was the case, RAW Allegiances still do not have allies.

You can indeed thake Allegiance Chaos but still would then still mean you can mix up everything under that Keyword under Chaos. I am totally okay with that but it removes the functionality of Allies as a rule. The prime reason I say this is because at that moment the whole "allies restriction" applies for nothing within a particular Faction.

E.g.
- Under the RAW an Allegiance still forces you to have all starting units to have Keyword X for Allegiance X. Totally clear because it used to be that way anyway under GH2016.
- Under RAW for Allies, a rule tied to Faction and Allies you can have another Allegiance provided it doesn't break the 400 point mark for example on 2000 points. This is in direct contraction with that the RAW for Allegiance states because it does not make the Allies exception. Page 116 doesn't mention it once.
- Factions are still not Allegiances aswell. Factions (Pitched Battle Profiles) have acces to Allies but Allegiances as a rule don't have the room for this.

To me the composition doesn't become more complex if Allegiances are still working out the way they used to. What makes it more complex is that Allies somehow are capable to break Allegiances without downsides while Allegiances do not allow for Allies to begin with under RAW (provided those Allies do not share the same chosen Keyword for that Allegiance). 

11 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

So, a Grand Alliance Army that is mono-Allegiance (e.g. Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, etc) can keep the Allegiance abilities, (because it meets the requirements for the Allegiance) but doesn't get Allies because there is no Ally list that has been provided in the Pitched Battle Profiles.

This is my thake on it aswell. However this would still apply for more as Khorne etc, In fact it would apply in the exact same way for the other Allegiances because the pitched battle profiles are Factions (not Allegiances) and Allegiances as a rule have no room for Allies. Better put, there is no clear rule describing how the two conflicting rules of Allegiances and Allied Allegiances interact with each other.


Leading to the same question for me, say Slaves to Darkness players 1600 points Slaves to Darkness Allegiances, choosen 400 points of Skyfires, can he then have the Tzeentch Allegiances for those Skyfires, leading to 9 Fate Dice on them? Under the RAW it would be possible with Factions and Allies rules but it isn't possible for Allegiances rules.
Not all starting units have the Slaves to Darkness Keyword in this example.

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1 hour ago, Killax said:


Leading to the same question for me, say Slaves to Darkness players 1600 points Slaves to Darkness Allegiances, choosen 400 points of Skyfires, can he then have the Tzeentch Allegiances for those Skyfires, leading to 9 Fate Dice on them? Under the RAW it would be possible with Factions and Allies rules but it isn't possible for Allegiances rules.
Not all starting units have the Slaves to Darkness Keyword in this example.

Yes and no.

You could pick 1600pts from the Slaves faction, and 400pts from the Disciples of Tzeentch faction.

You can then say they all have Chaos allegiance, ignoring factions and allies altogether.

Or they could have Slaves allegiance, in which case your chariots, knights and horsemen become battleline, and the Disciples are your Allies.

Or they could take Tzeentch allegiance, again ignoring factions and allies, but everything must have Tzeentch keyword, and you get no battleline if stuff.

Does that sound about right?

I think it makes sense, but the process could be clearer.

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8 hours ago, Captain Marius said:

Yes and no.

You could pick 1600pts from the Slaves faction, and 400pts from the Disciples of Tzeentch faction.

You can then say they all have Chaos allegiance, ignoring factions and allies altogether.

Or they could have Slaves allegiance, in which case your chariots, knights and horsemen become battleline, and the Disciples are your Allies.

Or they could take Tzeentch allegiance, again ignoring factions and allies, but everything must have Tzeentch keyword, and you get no battleline if stuff.

Does that sound about right?

I think it makes sense, but the process could be clearer.

The issue is the yes and no awnser ;) 

First of the book does not mention that we can actually ignore Factions and Allies altogether because the Pitched Battle Profiles are made up of Factions and Allies not Allegiances.

If everything has the Chaos Allegiance that's allright but the Chaos Allegiance is not a Faction or bound to a Faction.
If you choose the Tzeentch Allegiance you actually do get different 'Battleline stuff' as under that notion Burning Chariots of Tzeentch can become Battleline and because of this supposed option of ignoring Allies completely you again remove the whole functionality of Allies to begin with.

Lastly the prime issue that present itselfs and suggests that we actually can thake multiple Allegiances is also found on the rules in regards to Allies.
- As the below implies that each faction lists the allegiances (which it doesn't) and that we actually can have multiple allegiances because Allied units can have a different Allegiance to the rest of the army.
 

Quote

The Pitched Battle profile for each faction lists the allegiances of the allied units you can take. Allied units can have a different allegiance to the rest of the army.
Page 76, GH2017

 

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Theyve made a real mess of distinguishing between factions and allegiances!

From the quote it reads like allied units could use their own set of allegiance abilities...!? So plonk 400pts of skyfires in any faction that can ally with them (only Slaves and Everchosen tho?) and give them 9 destiny dice...

And it says allies "can" have a different allegiance... so "can" have the same one and thus use allegiance abilities? But this doesnt do anything cos theyve got rid of bloodbound and rotbringers allegiance etc...

I think i wouldve rathered they kept factions for mortals and daemons separate so they couldve just tacked on god-specific allegiance rules as alternatives to the grand alliance ones! Then you could have a khorne allegiance army pick from bloodbound, daemons and khorne slaves, with an allies list as appropriate. 

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I think the easiest fix would be to incorporate Allies within the Allegiance rule but also state that an Army can only have one Allegiance and the Allied have none at all.

Because things get even stranger the moment you say I pick 200 allied with allegiance Y and 200 allied with allegiance Z to essentially obtain the bonusses from 3 Allegiances.

Perhaps this was the intention but even then the Allied rules and Allegiance rules heavily contradict each other.

This is also not Chaos exclusive. Say you pick 1600 Dispossessed units, add 200 Fyreslayers and 200 Stormcast, do these 200 Fyreslayers and Stormcast proceed to obtain their full Allegiance benifits also? (Fyreslayer runes etc).

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Could you clarify:

An army 1600 Points worth of Stormcast allies 400 Points Freeguild in (2000 Point battle). Do the Freeguild have their faction ability "Freeguild Great Company"? Could the Stormcast General pick an  artefact from the Freeguild?

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Allies definitely don't get Allegiance abilities, because you are ignoring their Allegiance for the purpose of building the army. The army's Alleigance, of which you must choose one, is what determines whether you can use Allegiance Abilities.

pg. 116

"An army can have a specific allegiance if all the starting units and warscroll battalions have the keyword for that allegiance".

pg. 76

"Allied units are treated as part of the player's army, except that they are not included when working our the army's allegiance."

pg. 116

"When your army qualifies for more than one allegiance you must choose the allegiance your army will use before you set up any units."

pg. 116

"An army with an allegiance can use the allegiance abilities specific to that allegiance in any game of Warhammer Age of Sigmar."

The only things outstanding for me now are linked to whether there is practical distinction between Faction and Allegiance, with the Chaos Gods probably being the only real problem. Are you able to:

1). Take Slaves to Darkness Faction Army that has Nurgle Daemons as Allies, before finally selecting the Tzeentch Allegiance?

Your faction allows allows you to ignore the Nurgle Allies Allegiance, but is this cancelled out when choosing the Tzeentch allegiance, assuming that choosing the Tzeentch Allegiance is effectively the same as selecting the Disciples of Tzeentch Faction and therefore accepting the restrictions on Nurgle Allies?

2). Select an equal mix of Disciples of Tzeentch and Slaves to Darkness all marked Tzeentch and effectively use the Disciples of Tzeentch ally list?

3). Select an equal mix of Disciples of Tzeentch and Slaves to Darkness all marked Tzeentch, but be unable to use Allies, because you do not qualify as a single Faction.

I cannot find a definitive answer to this in the GHB 2017, because they all require an assumption about whether Factions and Allegiances are functionally  the same thing and I have not found this explicitly written down anywhere. Slaves to Darkness are pretty much the only offender here, so my suggestion would be that selecting an Allegiance other than Slaves to Darkness invalidates the Slaves to Darkness Faction Ally choice.

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1 hour ago, Tzaangor Management said:

 

2). Select an equal mix of Disciples of Tzeentch and Slaves to Darkness all marked Tzeentch and effectively use the Disciples of Tzeentch ally list?

3). Select an equal mix of Disciples of Tzeentch and Slaves to Darkness all marked Tzeentch, but be unable to use Allies, because you do not qualify as a single Faction.

 

In such a list you can take the DOT allegiance abilities and you would use the DOT ally list.  
I can't imagine it working any other way. 

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19 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Page 86 of my copy of the GHB 2017 doesn't appear to have the quote given above.  Is that the right page number or are there rogue versions floating about?  I say appear because I am very good at not seeing the obvious!

That's my fault. Page 76 is what I mend. What get's frustrating is that we have multiple pages that have to be taken into account ;) 

Under the paragraph ALLIES, page 76:

Quote

A player can spend some of their points on allied units. The Pitched Battle profile for each faction lists the allegiances of the allied units you can take. Allied units can have a different allegiance to the rest of the army.

The number of points that can be spent on allies from the player’s total points allowance is shown on the Pitched Battle chart on the previous page. For example, a player playing a Battlehost game could spend up to 400 of their 2,000 points on allied units.

Allied units are treated as part of the player’s army, except that they are not included when working out the army’s allegiance or the number of Battleline units in the army, and an allied model cannot be the army general. However, note that allied units do count towards the maximum number of Leader, Behemoth and Artillery units that can be included in the army.

It's because of this that despite the logic the below quote of Tzaangor Management doesn't comply with the RAW.

4 hours ago, Tzaangor Management said:

Allies definitely don't get Allegiance abilities, because you are ignoring their Allegiance for the purpose of building the army. The army's Alleigance, of which you must choose one, is what determines whether you can use Allegiance Abilities.


We basically don't know if Allies do not get Allegiance abilities because they can have a different Allegiance to the rest of the army. 
While it's certainly true that we used to choose one Allegiance and had to follow the rest, the Allies rule specifically allows us to circumvent this rule/restriction...
 

3 hours ago, tolstedt said:

In such a list you can take the DOT allegiance abilities and you would use the DOT ally list.  
I can't imagine it working any other way. 

I'm not trying to sound like a broken record but there is no Desciples of Tzeentch Allegiance,  there are no Desciple of Tzeentch Allegiance abilities. There is a Tzeentch Allegiance and it's not exclusive to Desciples of Tzeentch.

--

As before I really see the argument from both sides. I fully understand that both variants are found in GH2017 but what I'd indeed like to know from the designers in particular is what the intention behind it all is. The questions asked by Tzaangor Management are indeed good questions.

I assume at this point that we can still only have a maximum of one Allegiance per army too. With the Allies not falling under any Allegiance. The thing is that page 76, paragraph Allies tells or suggests otherwise. If that particular sentence wouldn't be in the book the issue itself would be largely removed. 

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6 hours ago, Kaleun said:

Could you clarify:

1. Do the Freeguild have their faction ability "Freeguild Great Company"?
2. Could the Stormcast General pick an  artefact from the Freeguild?

1. That's what we're trying to figure out :) 
2. It's another good subquestion. We so far only know that the General indeed cannot be from the Allied points but we do not know how these interact with "Allied Allegiances". As the Artefact lists of Allegiance in GH2017 do not further pur a restriction on which HERO can thake which Artefact it all depends on wether or not what is stated on page 76 applies or not... Specifically the part that states that allied units can have a different Allegiance to the rest of the army.

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Thanks, yes found the quote!  I think it's sloppy proof reading.  I suspect they meant Allied units can be "from" a different allegiance.rather than "have".  I agree it needs clarifying.  In the meantime, I will assume the intention was to have one army allegiance with allies that do not have their own and are not covered by the main army allegiance.  In my case, it won't be too hard because I basically have Aelves!

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TLDR: faction is just a way of grouping models together for easy reference, you guys.

I think we should consider the possibility that "faction" wasn't really intended to have a specific rules meaning, and is being used in different places, as 1)  a synonym for "allegiance more specific than chaos/order/destruction/death" - evidence = in GHB it says e.g.  "Battleline if allegiance Slaves to Darkness" - not faction , and 2) merely a way of grouping different models together in a way that is easy to look up - hence "Blades of Khorne" being all the models with warscrolls in that battletome, even though I think we all agree Khorne armies are not limited to the models in that book. On the app, SILVER TOWER is listed as a faction, as are DARK ELVES, BRETONIA, DREADHOLD - obviously none of these have a rules meaning.

I think the other interpretations, with deep intended meanings, are just too convoluted, sorry.

 

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On 03/09/2017 at 2:14 PM, Gilby said:

Okay so... revised faction, ally, allegiance how to in 5 simple steps:

  • Pick Allegiance you want to use
  • Look at the corresponding Faction table* for list of Allies Allegiances*
  • Identify the Warscrolls in your list that don't have the Allegiance keyword you want to use
  • IF that list is wholly from the list of Allies AND is less than 400 points, ignore them
  • Rest of army should now have desired Allegiance keyword

*DoT/Tzeentch and BoK/Khorne are interchangeable here as inconsistencies is wording of faction and allegiance would otherwise make them completely unusable as allies or make DoT and BoK a new previously unmentioned allegiance.

 

Is there anything in that that would cause a problem or make people build illegal lists? Might be over simplified in parts, but better that than confusing people.

That's definitely wrong. You are misreading what allegiance you can ignore through allies. If your army is taken from Slaves to Darkness allegiance, you can ignore the lack of slaves to darkness keyword on allies for the purpose of determining allies. If you have 1600 pts of slaanesh slaves to darkness and 400 pts of nurgle allies (let's say from Nurgle Rotbringers faction), this lets you ignore the lack of Slaves to Darkness on the allies, not the lack of Slaanesh. There is no way to run that army as slaanesh allegiance. 

Your star about DoT/Tzeentch and BoK/Khorne doesn't cover all the problem allegiances either. There's a bunch of different ones with faction names that don't match the allegiances.

----------------

I think the intention probably was for an army of all tzeentch allegiance units to use the disciples of tzeentch allies list. However, it is clear that the rule GW wrote does not accomplish this, and it leads to some odd situations. 

Consider Nurgle allegiance.  GW's latest FAQ, released this week, added a list of potential allies to Daemons of Nurgle. Doesn't this imply that Daemons of Nurgle faction is different than Nurgle Rotbringers faction, which has its own list of potential allies? They're not just "Nurgle" faction - they're distinct. Nurgle stuff is actually split over four different listed factions, and those factions have varied lists of allies. There's currently no rule allowing Slaves to Darkness faction units and Clan Pestilens faction units to be mixed in a Nurgle Rotbringers faction army as anything but allies. If you want to mix all nurgle stuff freely, you can select all nurgle units as a chaos grand alliance army, but cannot benefit from the ally rules. 

Consider Clan Pestilens faction. All units in the faction have keywords NURGLE and PESTILENS. Does taking a Clan Pestilens faction army allow you to ignore one or both of PESTILENS and NURGLE in determining allegiance? If you can ignore both, it makes for a very flexible army with three possible allegiances to choose from before each game, but that's probably not what was intended. 

The rule as written does not function for numerous different factions (not just marks of chaos). If GW intended Disciples of Tzeentch to be equivalent to Tzeentch allegiance, they wrote the wrong rule and they should fix it. 

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7 hours ago, Tzaangor Management said:

1). Take Slaves to Darkness Faction Army that has Nurgle Daemons as Allies, before finally selecting the Tzeentch Allegiance?

Your faction allows allows you to ignore the Nurgle Allies Allegiance, but is this cancelled out when choosing the Tzeentch allegiance, assuming that choosing the Tzeentch Allegiance is effectively the same as selecting the Disciples of Tzeentch Faction and therefore accepting the restrictions on Nurgle Allies?

RAW - "Effectively the same" doesn't equal "the same". 

The Allegiance rules for Tzeentch don't restrict it. And you use the Allies for your chosen Faction (there is no ally table for Allegiances). You would only not be able to take DoT as the Faction and Nurgle Allies. 

So the following is legitimate:

Faction: Slaves to Darkness

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Allies: Daemons of Nurgle or Nurgle Rotbringers

not thematic ... but legitimate. (Though there might be some twisted plan associated with it ...)

That being said ... it isn't entirely different than the Sorcerer Lord From Shadows over Hammerhal who gathered Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle Allies.  

 

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1 hour ago, decker_cky said:

If you have 1600 pts of slaanesh slaves to darkness and 400 pts of nurgle allies (let's say from Nurgle Rotbringers faction), this lets you ignore the lack of Slaves to Darkness on the allies, not the lack of Slaanesh. There is no way to run that army as slaanesh allegiance. 

I agree and so does the thing I said that you quoted and then said you disagreed with, so maybe there is a misunderstanding? I reworded it later for clarity.

  1. Pick Allegiance you want to use
  2. Look at the corresponding Faction table* with the same name as chosen Allegiance for the list of Allied Allegiances*
  3. Identify the Warscrolls in your list that don't have the Allegiance keyword you selected in step 1
  4. IF that list is wholly from the list of Allies (step 2) AND is less than 400 points, ignore them
  5. Rest of army should now have desired Allegiance keyword, making your army a legal list for that Allegiance

In this case you'd be using StD as your allegiance then right? Seeing as you said:

1 hour ago, decker_cky said:

this lets you ignore the lack of Slaves to Darkness on the allies, not the lack of Slaanesh. There is no way to run that army as slaanesh allegiance. 

So..

  1. The Allegiance you're aiming for is StD
  2. StD Faction table Allies includes Nurgle
  3. Identify non-StD Warscrolls
  4. If they are all from the Allies list in step 2 and less that 400 points ignore them.
  5. Your army is legal for the Allegiance (from step 1)

 

Your star about DoT/Tzeentch and BoK/Khorne doesn't cover all the problem allegiances either. There's a bunch of different ones with faction names that don't match the allegiances.

Yeah, but the GHB2017 says all your Ally warscrolls have to be from the Allegiances listed at the bottom of the Faction table. They call them Allegiances but then use Faction names.

 

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2 minutes ago, Gilby said:
1 hour ago, decker_cky said:

this lets you ignore the lack of Slaves to Darkness on the allies, not the lack of Slaanesh. There is no way to run that army as slaanesh allegiance. 

So..

  1. The Allegiance you're aiming for is StD
  2. StD Faction table Allies includes Nurgle
  3. Identify non-StD Warscrolls
  4. If they are all from the Allies list in step 2 and less that 400 points ignore them.
  5. Your army is legal for the Allegiance (from step 1)

 

If all of the Slave to Darkness Warscrolls have Keyword Slaanesh, or can be set to the keyword Slaanesh on set-up then it could be:

Faction:Slaves to Darkness

Allegiance: Slaanesh OR Slaves to Darkness

10 minutes ago, Gilby said:

Look at the corresponding Faction table* with the same name as chosen Allegiance for the list of Allied Allegiances*

The caveat to this is:

"If the name of the Allegiance is not the same as the name of the Faction, choose a Faction that can meet the chosen Allegiance and the Requirements of that Allegiance either because it has the appropriate keywords or can be given the appropriate keywords."

Effectively, it is easier to choose the Pitched Battle Profile Faction list you want to take your main Army from, and then ensure that the army meets the Allegiance requirements for the Allegiance you want. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Killax said:

It's because of this that despite the logic the below quote of Tzaangor Management doesn't comply with the RAW.


We basically don't know if Allies do not get Allegiance abilities because they can have a different Allegiance to the rest of the army. 
While it's certainly true that we used to choose one Allegiance and had to follow the rest, the Allies rule specifically allows us to circumvent this rule/restriction...

The point I was making is that it is the army that qualifies for the Allegiance Abilities. The units can have a different Allegiance, but the whole army must have the same Allegiance in order to qualify for Allegiance Abilities. You can ignore the Allegiance of the Allies to qualify for the army-wide Allegiance.

In this case, the distinction is between Unit Allegiance and Army Allegiance and therefore the Allied units cannot access separate Allegiance Abilities, because the Allegiance is not shared army-wide.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:

RAW - "Effectively the same" doesn't equal "the same". 

The Allegiance rules for Tzeentch don't restrict it. And you use the Allies for your chosen Faction (there is no ally table for Allegiances). You would only not be able to take DoT as the Faction and Nurgle Allies. 

So the following is legitimate:

Faction: Slaves to Darkness

Allegiance: Tzeentch

The logical extension of coming down on this side of the argument being that you either:

A). Cannot have an army that is 50% Slaves to Darkness and 50% Disciples of Tzeentch because it has no Faction.

B). An army that is 50% Slaves to Darkness and 50% Disciples of Tzeentch cannot have Allies because it does not have a Faction table to choose from.

This is what still needs to be cleared up in my opinion, because there are still people coming down on and I can understand both sides.

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44 minutes ago, Tzaangor Management said:

The logical extension of coming down on this side of the argument being that you either:

A). Cannot have an army that is 50% Slaves to Darkness and 50% Disciples of Tzeentch because it has no Faction.

B). An army that is 50% Slaves to Darkness and 50% Disciples of Tzeentch cannot have Allies because it does not have a Faction table to choose from.

This is what still needs to be cleared up in my opinion, because there are still people coming down on and I can understand both sides.

RAW it is B.

(The key thing to remember is that I'm not talking about Allegiances which require keywords as the requirements for Allegiance Abilities in this, I am only talking about Factions (which sometimes don't have keywords). We know there is odd stuff cross referencing the two ...  that will require a FAQ. But, I digress...)

If you want more than 20% of your force as Allies at the given point levels one needs to use the Grand Alliances.

There is nothing to keep you from taking any forces you want in a Grand Alliance Chaos Army. Grand Alliance Chaos (like the others) isn't properly a Faction as it encompasses all of the sub-factions. As such it has nothing that it can ally with. (You could say that it is the Chaos Faction.... but RAW that isn't defined, and will likely only cause confusion.) 

As noted, a Grand Alliance Chaos Army has  no Pitched Battle Profile ally List you so one can't take Allies and use the Grand Alliance.

And as we know a Grand Alliance Army can take forces from all of the Pitched Battle Faction Profiles for the Grand Alliance. So you can have a 50/50 Army.

And that would rule out option "A"

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1 hour ago, Tzaangor Management said:

The logical extension of coming down on this side of the argument being that you either:

A). Cannot have an army that is 50% Slaves to Darkness and 50% Disciples of Tzeentch because it has no Faction.

B). An army that is 50% Slaves to Darkness and 50% Disciples of Tzeentch cannot have Allies because it does not have a Faction table to choose from.

This is what still needs to be cleared up in my opinion, because there are still people coming down on and I can understand both sides.

Where in the rules does it say you have to have all of your warscrolls from one faction to take that faction's allies?

 

GHB2017 p74 says that, "The first step in picking an army is choosing it's allegiance. All of the units in the army must either have the allegiance, or be allied to that allegiance."

 

800 points of StD marked Khorne and 800 points of Blades of Khorne could take 400 points of Khorne allies IF you choose Khorne allegiance. All your army is then allegiance Khorne or allied to Khorne.

 

However you can't take StD allies and then select Khorne allegiance as the allies are not allied to the army's allegiance. Even though (excluding allies) everything is legal in a Khorne army. The allies you get are based on the allegiance you select.

 

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@Gilby, I'm not saying it does, I'm saying if you make the argument that @TheOtherJosh is making, you are logically saying either A or B from the post you quoted. He has gone on to say B.

@TheOtherJosh, you can see the counter argument made almost straight away that Faction and Allegiance are essentially interchangeable, in this case that the DoT Faction is interchangeable with the Tzeentch Allegiance.  Hence me saying clarification is needed. 

The reason I made this point in the first place is to separate it from the 'your allies can take allegiance abilities' argument, which I don't think requires clarification, as access to Allegiance Abilities is based on the Army's Allegiance not the individual units.

For what it's worth I think I agree with @TheOtherJosh, but I think that enough people don't, which I can understand due to the GHB mentioning that Allegiances can have Allies, for it to require formal clarification.

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