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Allegiances and Factions and Allies


Gilby

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13 minutes ago, Xasz said:

Yeah I saw it right after I send my post... but to be absolutely certain:

We choose an allegiance at the start of list building. (or at whatever stage, the rules are always ambiguous about the order of steps in that process but for clarity's sake lets roll with at the start, it shouldn't make a difference in the end)

-> access to their BLifs, allies, allegiance abilities

If I'd take Slaves to Darkness and take all StD units, I'd be able to use their BLifs and so on but even if I mark everything with Khorne I could only choose between StD and chaos abilities.

If I'd take Khorne (BoK), I could take all StD units that are marked with Khorne, I cannot use StD specific BLifs and have to abide by the Khorne allies. I then can choose between Khorne abilities and chaos.

Exactly correct.

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23 minutes ago, Xasz said:

If I'd take Slaves to Darkness and take all StD units, I'd be able to use their BLifs and so on but even if I mark everything with Khorne I could only choose between StD and chaos abilities.

If I'd take Khorne (BoK), I could take all StD units that are marked with Khorne, I cannot use StD specific BLifs and have to abide by the Khorne allies. I then can choose between Khorne abilities and chaos.

Seems fair enough. What about the allies situation though? @Thomas Lyons you're content that, if the allegiance chosen is Khorne on an all marked StD army, you take the allies from the BoK list? Khorne allegiance = BoK. It's a real sticking point in this discussion. 

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4 minutes ago, hobgoblinclub said:

Seems fair enough. What about the allies situation though? @Thomas Lyons you're content that, if the allegiance chosen is Khorne on an all marked StD army, you take the allies from the BoK list? Khorne allegiance = BoK. It's a real sticking point in this discussion. 

Correct.  Allegiance is based on keywords, as noted in my second post.  As I noted in my first post, there is no such thing as a Blades of Khorne keyword.   The only shared keyword, other than Chaos, is Khorne for BoK units and Allegiance is based on keywords (as noted in the second post). The same is true f Disciples of Tzeentch, Hosts of Slaanesh and probably Rotbringers of Nurgle.  None of these units have those keywords.  Also notice that all BLif units in these factions use just the god Allegiance, not thefaction they are in.  This is exactly what Pestilens does  (Pestilens is the keyword; the faction is  Clan Pestilens). This is also backed up with all the anecdotal evidence from GW and WHTV responses.  

The only questionable element is whether allies allow you to pull in other only other factions but not other keywords. If this is the case it creates a weird situation where Sayl couldn't be pulled in as a STD ally since he isn't STD faction (although he is that as an Allegiance), as Sayl is a Tamurkhan's Horde faction (that is the faction list he is in,  although he could be included in a STD Allegiance since Allegiance is keyword based).  The more I think about this, it seems like who is legal for an Allegiance will be different than the allies listed.  Does that make sense? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Thomas Lyons said:

I need to add one additional addendum.  I did get one thing wrong, and it is this:

 FullSizeRender.jpg.58a9effe19b4582d4efc5e451f67079b.jpg

You cannot choose a third allegiance for allegiance abilities.  You can choose either the allegiance of your construction, or your Grand Alliance allegiance; no other options are available.  The clause suggesting you can choose an allegiance that you have the keywords for suggests that is for step 1 from my post, not step 3.  

Battalions that are out of faction/have other keywords use allies points.  For example, Fatesworn is an Everchosen keyword battalion and is found in the Everchosen list, so utilizing it in a Tzeentch list utilizes allies points for it.  This came from Ben Johnson on day 2 of WHTV's First Blood GHB2017 week.  If you rewatch it, you can listen to Ben's response and see the discussion in the chat.

This clause was written before the GHB2017 allegiance rules were published.  This is based on how Allegiance abilities worked in 2016.  I suspect you'll see clarification of this on battle tomes from here on out given that there are rules for dealing with stuff like this utilizing the allies system.  Again, Ben's response directly contradicted this.  

@TheOtherJosh, you'll see given what I just posted that this example is impossible.  You can only choose the allegiance you actually belong to or the generic Grand Alliance you are part of for allegiance abilities, not a third option that you share the keywords for.  The clause people are using is referring to choosing your allegiance, not your allegiance abilities. 

Allegiances aren't "part of the construction" per-se. They're determined based on the possible options that your Army meets.

Your post just indicates the Allegiance abilities to choose from. And the "Allegiance chosen" determines what ability options you have, So:

Faction: Slaves to Darkness (marked Slaanesh)

With the example mentioned previously, you can still have a Faction: Slaves to Darkness (Slaanesh) Army with Blades of Khorne Allies and then one has to make the following decision.

Which Allegiance? 

The Allegiance Options would still be: Chaos, Slaanesh, Slaves to Darkness

This is because all the requirements are met for all three options.

Then one is in the position of what Allegiance abilities does that chosen Allegiance give you? 

As you noted, these depend on the Allegiance chosen):

If Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness: Chaos or Slaves to Darkness

If Allegiance:Slaanesh : Slaanesh or Chaos

Basically, you can only Choose the Allegiance Abilities from the Parent (Chaos) or the Child (Slaanesh OR Slaves to Darkness).

But, either Slaanesh or Slaves to Darkness are available to be chosen, because the army meets the requirements.

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1 hour ago, Xasz said:

... If I'd take Khorne (BoK), I could take all StD units that are marked with Khorne, I cannot use StD specific BLifs and have to abide by the Khorne allies. I then can choose between Khorne abilities and chaos.

As a side note, you would only ever have options for Slaves to Darkness Allies under your scenario.  As there is no actual alliance "table" for Faction:Khorne

But, if you went:

Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos

Allegiance:Khorne

And then met the requirements for the BoK "battleline if" you could use them as Battleline. 

But, you would no longer qualify for StoD Allegiance, and you would have no ally options.

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8 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Allegiances aren't "part of the construction" per-se. They're determined based on the possible options that your Army meets.

Your post just indicates the Allegiance abilities to choose from. And the "Allegiance chosen" determines what ability options you have, So:

Faction: Slaves to Darkness (marked Slaanesh)

With the example mentioned previously, you can still have a Faction: Slaves to Darkness (Slaanesh) Army with Blades of Khorne Allies and then one has to make the following decision.

Which Allegiance? 

The Allegiance Options would still be: Chaos, Slaanesh, Slaves to Darkness

This is because all the requirements are met for all three options.

Then one is in the position of what Allegiance abilities does that chosen Allegiance give you? 

As you noted, these depend on the Allegiance chosen):

If Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness: Chaos or Slaves to Darkness

If Allegiance:Slaanesh : Slaanesh or Chaos

Basically, you can only Choose the Allegiance Abilities from the Parent (Chaos) or the Child (Slaanesh OR Slaves to Darkness).

But, either Slaanesh or Slaves to Darkness are available to be chosen, because the army meets the requirements.

The problem with your example is that the GHB2017 directly contradicts your suggestion.  When choosing Allegiance abilities, you get two and only two options: Your chosen Allegiance (what you have used to determine your BLifs and allies) or your Grand Alliance.  That's it.  See the underlined text in my image you quoted.  

Where do you think you get to choose Allegiance Abilities based on everything you qualify for? It says you get to choose your Allegiance based on anything you qualify for, but not your Allegiance abilities.  I'd love an example from the text proving me wrong.

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39 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

Based on this text in GHB 2017, on page 116, you only need appropriate keywords to be able to take different allegiance abilities. It's a situation of contradictory text within the rules. Debate won't solve this but errata certainly can. 

image.jpg

That entire top section is only for determining Allegiance, not Allegiance abilities, as I noted a couple pages back.  Read the first sentence of the call out box on abilities.

IMG_7252.PNG.dbe2f896ed849f0436e6f6e240a0ed32.PNG

It literally says your army must belong to an Allegiance to have access to its Allegiance abilities. So no, you can't declare STD Allegiance then take Khorne abilities, even if everything STD is marked Khorne. 

So you:

1) Declare your allegiance. 

2) Build your list from legal units for your Allegiance and their allies.

3) Select either the Allegiance abilities for your declared Allegiance (step 1) or your Grand Alliance.  

If you think the text supports any other reading, I'd invite you to show me where.

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"An army can have a specific allegiance if all the starting units and warscroll battalions in the army have the keyword for that allegiance, including any units that you assign a keyword to during set-up."

"An army with an allegiance can use the allegiance abilities specific to that allegiance."

This suggests to me that a Slaves to Darkness army can take a chaos god's keyword and use that allegiance as well. Again, I'd like to see errata to fully clarify, because I think either way could be the intent of the rules as written. 

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20 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

"An army can have a specific allegiance if all the starting units and warscroll battalions in the army have the keyword for that allegiance, including any units that you assign a keyword to during set-up."

"An army with an allegiance can use the allegiance abilities specific to that allegiance."

This suggests to me that a Slaves to Darkness army can take a chaos god's keyword and use that allegiance as well. Again, I'd like to see errata to fully clarify, because I think either way could be the intent of the rules as written. 

It depends on what you mean by a  "Slaves to Darkness army".  Yes, you can make an entire Khorne Allegiance army from units that come from the Slaves to Darkness faction, but this is a Khorne Allegiance force, not Slaves to Darkness Allegiance.  You wouldn't get the "Battleline if" units of Slaves to Darkness unless you were Slaves to Darkness declared allegiance.

Each of those quotes you've cited have a specific context where they are referring to either the army's declared allegiance or deciding the Allegiance abilities.  Rules that apply to deciding the Allegiance don't also apply to deciding Allegiance abilities. Those clauses are in different sections. The first quote comes from determining what allegiances a given force can declare; the second comes from the Allegiance ability section.  Note the second quote states that your Allegiance ability comes from your declared allegiance.  If  you haven't declared that Allegiance, you can't use the abilities. Does that make sense?

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2 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

2) Build your list from legal units for your Allegiance and their allies.

You've combined the concept of Pitched Battle Faction lists and Allegiance.

We know that there are differences between the two, and that an errata is required to clarify this point. This isn't an issue for factions and Allegiances that are named identically. But for Chaos, that is not always the case.

So, yes ... if you declare StoD Allegiance, you can't use Khorne abilities. But, Allegiance:Slaves to Darkness has no Pitched Battle Faction list of units. Faction:Slaves to Darkness does.

Remember, you can be "Faction: Slaves to Darkness" and declare Allegiance: Khorne, if you meet the requirements.

As Allies come from Pitched Battle Faction lists, And not Allegiances, one would use the Faction: Slaves to Darkness Allies List for a Faction: StoD, Allegiance:Khorne Army.

So, yes it says "pick Allegiance" ... but you're actually choosing which Pitched Battle Army faction list you're pulling your main army from, and what Allies are available to you by choosing that main Pitched Battle Faction.

The units and their keywords (or the keywords which can be added based on warscroll) determine which Allegiances one has available and can be picked.

Then the Allegiance joined, and any other requirements listed on the "battleline if" selection determine which "battleline if" one has available. (It is possible that the requirements might not be able to be met.)

At this point in the list build process, one can then choose the Allegiance Traits, either the one from the core Chaos, or from the Allegiance that was specifically chosen from the available keywords.

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Despite the lengthy thread I thought it was quite clear the intention of allies with regard to the chaos gods and their keyword allegiances.  But then, FW go and muddy the waters again with their awfully implemented Tamurkhan's horde update...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/10/faqs-for-blightwar-and-tamurkhans-horde-now-available-sep-10gw-homepage-post-1/

They announce this update with the statement  "We’re adjusting the matched play profiles for Plague Toads of Nurgle and Plague Ogors to make them Battleline choices, as well as providing the army with an allies table of its own.  With some new Nurgle Allegiance abilities now available thanks to Blightwar, there’s never been a better time to start your own Tamurkhan’s Horde army."  

So many issues...:

1. If you want those battleline ifs, you need Tamurkhan's Horde allegiance, which means you can't take the Nurgle allegiance ability like they suggested above.

2. If you take Tamurkhan's Horde allegiance (rather than Nurgle) for the battleline if's, you can't ally in regular Nurgle units as they're not in the allies list.

3. Some of the units in that list don't even have Tamurkhan's horde keyword (eg. Sayl the Faithless) so don't even belong in that allegiance.

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47 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

You've combined the concept of Pitched Battle Faction lists and Allegiance.

We know that there are differences between the two, and that an errata is required to clarify this point. This isn't an issue for factions and Allegiances that are named identically. But for Chaos, that is not always the case.

So, yes ... if you declare StoD Allegiance, you can't use Khorne abilities. But, Allegiance:Slaves to Darkness has no Pitched Battle Faction list of units. Faction:Slaves to Darkness does.

Remember, you can be "Faction: Slaves to Darkness" and declare Allegiance: Khorne, if you meet the requirements.

As Allies come from Pitched Battle Faction lists, And not Allegiances, one would use the Faction: Slaves to Darkness Allies List for a Faction: StoD, Allegiance:Khorne Army.

So, yes it says "pick Allegiance" ... but you're actually choosing which Pitched Battle Army faction list you're pulling your main army from, and what Allies are available to you by choosing that main Pitched Battle Faction.

The units and their keywords (or the keywords which can be added based on warscroll) determine which Allegiances one has available and can be picked.

Then the Allegiance joined, and any other requirements listed on the "battleline if" selection determine which "battleline if" one has available. (It is possible that the requirements might not be able to be met.)

At this point in the list build process, one can then choose the Allegiance Traits, either the one from the core Chaos, or from the Allegiance that was specifically chosen from the available keywords.

First, all Allegiance play or discussion of allies is by definition Pitched Battle rules.  You can't even  discuss what allies are whose unless you are looking at Pitched Battle profiles, so that is a false dichotomy.  Notice, I'm combining the rules/sections because that is what the GHB tells us to do. Observe:

IMG_7238.PNG.fcc1f21f4c630da9244f3a0fc4e91058.PNG

That is on page 74 of he Matched Play Pitched Battle section. Notice that this is what points you back to the picking an Allegiance section on 116. This is also the section where you find out how many points of your army can be allies.  If that isn't the type of game you are playing, then why are you arguing about this?  Take whatever allies and however many you want. 

Second, you've created a step that never exists in the rules.  You never choose a faction list, you choose an Allegiance. To make this point clear, read the following passage on allies of factions:

IMG_7253.PNG.3b4eb482ec826206164e01ca1cd36bfd.PNG

You spend points on a factions allies so that that factions Allegiance may be selected.  A faction's Allegiance is keyword based.  The Allegiance of Blades of Khorne is Khorne Allegiance.  This is the very Battletome you find it in. Same with DoT.  You never choose a faction when building a list.  You are always choosing an Allegiance.  Can you find anywhere in the text where a faction is chosen when you are building?  You can't because factions aren't chosen, allegiances are. The language of Faction is what is used to refer to the list in the Pitched Battle profile section. They didn't use the language of allegiance, because those geouping aren't exhaustive for an Allegiance, as we see with the Chaos God/STD situation, so they needed another word (although in many instances faction and Allegiance are synonymous in title and keyword), hence faction.

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18 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Correct.  To be very clear, you choose an Allegiance, then you choose your units, then you choose your Allegiance abilities.

Here are he relevant sections:

IMG_7238.PNG.3ff514ee5deddd88667c42646f64c2fb.PNG

This is then what it says on page 116:

IMG_7236.PNG.a7af8b73c6e958b64088529501458c2a.PNG

IMG_7237.PNG.e78a9ccdf7e99b3eac91bb40b6e8042e.PNG

Allegiance, by the book, is fully dependent on a shared keywords.  Who is in an Allegiance is fully keyword based; notice that every reference to every Allegiance is a keyword. Period.  If a unit has the appropriate keyword, it is in that Allegiance.  Allegiance is not based on the Matched play profile faction lists in the GHB2017; if it were, you would never be able to field the new SCE Blacktalon in a SCE army since she isn't in the list. If a unit gains that keyword during setup,  they are in Allegiance.

As I noted previously, all indicators suggest that DoT, BoK etc are simply the default list for those god's allegiances.  These lists are not all inclusive; there are other things that are in Allegiance not included in these lists, especially those units that gain keywords on setup for example. The key is to look for whatever keyword unifies these factions- that is the determinative unifying factor according to what the Ghb says.

Now, once you've built this legal force, with appropriate allies, you can choose an Allegiance ability suite.  This choose is based on one thing: what are the  shared keywords your faction has, with appropriate exempted allies for a specific allegiance. Thus, you couldn't have bloodletters in a Slaanesh force; if you chose STD Allegiance, marked everything Slaanesh and brought in Bloodletter allies, then you could only be Chaos or STD Allegiance since everything doesn't have the Slaanesh keyword (the bloodletters dont), and they only get the "allies exemption" for STD Allegiance, since that is what the force is.  Now, you could make a STD force, and if everything was slaanesh marked, you could choose either Chaos, STD or  slaanesh Allegiance abilities (but only if literally everything had the slaanesh keyword). [ Edit: This example is wrong.  You can only choose either the allegiance you built your list in or the grand alliance you are part of.  You may never choose a third option that you may qualify for.  See the attached image immediately below.]

 FullSizeRender.jpg.31c457cd18866a89190798806952eb40.jpg

Also, as a final note, battalions have the keyword of the Allegiance you find them in and count as that force for list construction.  This means that you can choose an Everchosen battalion for a STD Allegiance list, but you have to use some of your allies allotment since it isn't an STD battalion.  I asked this on the WHTV stream on chaos day and Ben Johnson confirmed that you need to use ally points for out of faction battalions.  This would also mean that you can only do battalions that are in your allies list. Luckily, this only generally occurs with Everchosen, and they're in most allies lists. 

No one has disputed that Allegiance is solely keyword based. Your allegiance determines which allegiance abilities you may use, as you note later.

However, does allegiance also determine which allies you can take? That is up for debate, since the text in the GHB contradicts itself. Under "Picking your army" it says "...allied to that allegiance" which implies allegiances, not factions, have allies. However, on pg. 76, under "Allies", it says "The Pitched Battle profile for each faction (emphasis mine) lists the allegiances of the allied units you can take." The first part of the sentence, in direct contradiction to the "Picking your army" text, implies that factions, not allegiances, have allies. This is also supported by the fact that the factions lists have allies, but there are no allegiance lists with allies. Nowhere does it say that the faction lists are incomplete, or that for example Slaves of Darkness with the TZEENTCH keywordshould be included in the Disciples of Tzeentch faction. Interestingly, the second part of the sentence also implies that the allies you can take are not based on faction, but on allegiance. So, according to this sentence, your faction determines which allies you can use, but the list of allies is a list of allegiances, not factions, that you can include as allies. So, again according to this sentence, if you have "Nighthaunt" as an ally, you can use the Mourngoul in your army as an ally, even though he does not belong to the Nighthaunt faction, because he has access to the Nighthaunt allegiance. However, if you have Nighthaunt as your "main" faction, you cannot use the Mourngoul if you want access to allies, since he does not belong to the Nighthaunt faction! This is obviously absurd and convoluted, but that's what this sentence tells us.

On p. 86 allies are again explained, under "Factions & Allies". This time it says that "Some factions include a list of allies. [...] In a pitched battle you can spend some of the Points for you army on a faction's allies without changing the army's allegiance." This again implies that factions, not allegiances, have allies.  However, if your army contains more than two factions, which allies can you take? Both faction's allies, one of them, or none? This is not clear since there is no mechanism for picking faction and how this affects allies. Also of note is that the text here uses keyword bold, for example "BRAYHERD faction", which implies that factions are keyword based, which would make no sense since that would make them identical to allegiances. If that is indeed the case, and faction and allegiance are the same thing, then the list of "factions" should've been a list of "allegiances", with a note above each saying, for example "Any units with the TZEENTCH keyword are considered part of the Disciples of Tzeentch allegiance even if they are not on this list". Creating a new term ("faction") would be completely unnecessary and convoluted.

tl;dr: the book contradicts itself several times and we won't know how allies, battleline-if etc actually work until we get a proper FAQ. What GW employees say, even on the Community site,  is immaterial since we know from many examples in the past that they often get things wrong.

 

 

 

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Exact, despite the great effort in this discussion several pages of rulings in GH2017 contradict and without designer Errata it will still continue to do so.

The guys from GWs Social Media are an excellent source to ask quick and easy questions. The one thing they cannot do however is speak on intention as they are not the game designers.

All in all what we can do now is forward the issues to their Social Media so they can pass it through Design.

Several examples can be given about the Facebook page not being able to awnser specific questions, as they revolve around design. Last examples next to this one where Khul and Battalion interaction and more recently 40K rules from Index not appearing in Codex. The result of this was that several rules have changed in order to clarify intended design.

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3 hours ago, Nevvermore said:

No one has disputed that Allegiance is solely keyword based. Your allegiance determines which allegiance abilities you may use, as you note later.

But they have.  For pages folks argued that your Allegiance abilities don't have to match your allegiance or your grand alliance but instead a third Allegiance that you might qualify for.

Regarding allegiances and factions, things are a little bit more convoluted but still workable. As noted, factions are functionally non- exhaustive allegiances (in some cases; sometimes they are exhaustive of that Allegiance, like Pestilens for example).  GW had to do this because of how both the Chaos gods work and because releasing other models "in faction" would be unplayable if a list was "exhaustive" (at least until the new GHB would be released).

So yes, they often use the language of faction and Allegiance interchangeably because functionally they are, except they're not synonymous with allegiances.  

For example, Clan Pestilens is the faction and its associated allegiance is Pestilens.  Since they are functionally synonymous (as there are no Pestilens keyworded units anywhere else in the game), I can effectively talk about the allies of the faction or the allies of the Allegiance and they mean the exact same thing for Pestilens: they are the allies listed at the bottom of the Pestilens faction Pitched Battle profile table.  

Using Pestilens as an example of how this functions, we can now look across the factions, their allies, and associated allegiances  and see that this clearly explains 95%+ of the associated factions.  Each faction chart has one Allegiance associated with it; the BLif units identify what the  Allegiance is for that faction; the allies for that faction and its associated allegiance are at the bottom of each chart.  

The only confusing element might be how to treat the Chaos god factions, but even these follow this same pattern.  Disciples of Tzeentch is the faction whose allegiance is Tzeentch (the BLif units identify the associated faction, as observed with all other factions) and the allies for the Disciples of Tzeentch faction and it's associated allies are found at the bottom of the faction table.  It should be no surprise that the Discples of Tzeentch Battletome contains the Tzeentch Allegiance: that is the associated allegiance of the faction.  

In spite the possible contradictions around allegiances and factions, I think this explains all of the clauses and rules in the GHB2017.  There is certainly some interchangeability of these terms and this is understanble in context, although it can be imprecise.  This imprecision in no way makes the allies and Allegiance system unplayable or the design intent indiscernible.   

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3 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

For example, Clan Pestilens is the faction and its associated allegiance is Pestilens.  Since they are functionally synonymous (as there are no Pestilens keyworded units anywhere else in the game), I can effectively talk about the allies of the faction or the allies of the Allegiance and they mean the exact same thing for Pestilens: they are the allies listed at the bottom of the Pestilens faction Pitched Battle profile table.

"Functionally the same" does not equal "the same." 

It is much like saying "a countertop toaster oven is functionally equivalent to a real oven" ... for anything that can fit inside of it ... sure. But as soon as you need something that doesn't ... it isn't. 

By using "functional equivalents", rather than using the actual reference you can end up in a bit of a boondoggle when it comes to more complex situations where there isn't a direct "functional" equivalence. (Even if you might really want it to be the case.)

For most of the Grand Alliance armies, you're right. Pitched Battle Faction Name and Allegiance are identical. 

So let's talk about where it isn't "functionally equivalent" for specific Allegiance options. And by attempting to equate "functional equivalence" for "actual equivalence" makes the conversation much more difficult.

This is primarily an issue for the four Chaos gods, so here are the Factions that can actually meet the requirements for their Chaos gods Allegiance:

Allegiance:Khorne

- Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos, with Mark of Khorne

- Faction: Blades of Khorne

- Faction: Slaves to Darkness, with Mark of Khorne

Allegiance: Slaanesh

- Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos, with Mark of Slaanesh

- Faction: Hosts of Slaanesh

- Faction: Slaves to Darkness, with Mark of Slaanesh

Allegiance: Nurgle

- Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos, with Mark of Nurgle

- Faction: Slaves to Darkness, with Mark of Nurgle

- Faction: Daemons of Nurgle

- Faction: Clan Pestilins

- Faction: Nurgle Rotbringers

- Faction: Tamurkhan's Horde (except for Sayl)

Allegiance: Tzeentch

- Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos, with Mark of Tzeentch

- Faction: Disciples of Tzeentch

- Faction: Slaves to Darkness, with Mark of Tzeentch

And the newest update from Forgeworld to Tamurkhan's Horde didn't fix the "equivalence" solution.

Yes, the players must make a decision, which faction do they want to play ... because Pitched Battle Faction lists are what give Allies, they are the defining piece that makes Allies function. Not Allegiances. 

Your pointing out that Allegiance Traits can only be taken after defining the chosen Allegiance is another key in clearing out the complexity puzzle. And that that choice is either the Chosen Allegiance Trait, or the Parent "Grand Alliance Trait" you can't have all options available at once.

However, until the Allegiance decision has been finalized by the player a given Pitched Battle Faction Army might have multiple choices available for their Army.

If we consider that Faction: Clan Pestilins army ... they could choose:

Allegiance: Chaos

Allegiance: Pestilins

Allegiance: Nurgle

Allegiance: Skaven (which doesn't currently do anything...)

Some of the choices are better than others. Some just open up Battleline If, others have actual Traits... but there are a whole bunch of possibilities. 

It is "easier" to attempt to shoehorn into "functional equivalent" but it doesn't answer the question of "what do I do for the other Chaos gods?"

Working with Pitched Battle Profile Factions and Allegiances being separate actually allows the system to work... unfortunately the folks who were proofreading GHB 2017... probably weren't playing Chaos. ;) So for them ... the Allegiance name and Pitched Battle Faction name were the same.

The Chaos gods demand much from their adherents. Including ... apparently ... complex requirements for Factions and their Allies, and what Allegiances one qualifies for... B|  

 

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1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:

"Functionally the same" does not equal "the same." 

It is much like saying "a countertop toaster oven is functionally equivalent to a real oven" ... for anything that can fit inside of it ... sure. But as soon as you need something that doesn't ... it isn't. 

By using "functional equivalents", rather than using the actual reference you can end up in a bit of a boondoggle when it comes to more complex situations where there isn't a direct "functional" equivalence. (Even if you might really want it to be the case.)

For most of the Grand Alliance armies, you're right. Pitched Battle Faction Name and Allegiance are identical. 

So let's talk about where it isn't "functionally equivalent" for specific Allegiance options. And by attempting to equate "functional equivalence" for "actual equivalence" makes the conversation much more difficult.

This is primarily an issue for the four Chaos gods, so here are the Factions that can actually meet the requirements for their Chaos gods Allegiance:

Allegiance:Khorne

- Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos, with Mark of Khorne

- Faction: Blades of Khorne

- Faction: Slaves to Darkness, with Mark of Khorne

Allegiance: Slaanesh

- Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos, with Mark of Slaanesh

- Faction: Hosts of Slaanesh

- Faction: Slaves to Darkness, with Mark of Slaanesh

Allegiance: Nurgle

- Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos, with Mark of Nurgle

- Faction: Slaves to Darkness, with Mark of Nurgle

- Faction: Daemons of Nurgle

- Faction: Clan Pestilins

- Faction: Nurgle Rotbringers

- Faction: Tamurkhan's Horde (except for Sayl)

Allegiance: Tzeentch

- Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos, with Mark of Tzeentch

- Faction: Disciples of Tzeentch

- Faction: Slaves to Darkness, with Mark of Tzeentch

And the newest update from Forgeworld to Tamurkhan's Horde didn't fix the "equivalence" solution.

Yes, the players must make a decision, which faction do they want to play ... because Pitched Battle Faction lists are what give Allies, they are the defining piece that makes Allies function. Not Allegiances. 

Your pointing out that Allegiance Traits can only be taken after defining the chosen Allegiance is another key in clearing out the complexity puzzle. And that that choice is either the Chosen Allegiance Trait, or the Parent "Grand Alliance Trait" you can't have all options available at once.

However, until the Allegiance decision has been finalized by the player a given Pitched Battle Faction Army might have multiple choices available for their Army.

If we consider that Faction: Clan Pestilins army ... they could choose:

Allegiance: Chaos

Allegiance: Pestilins

Allegiance: Nurgle

Allegiance: Skaven (which doesn't currently do anything...)

Some of the choices are better than others. Some just open up Battleline If, others have actual Traits... but there are a whole bunch of possibilities. 

It is "easier" to attempt to shoehorn into "functional equivalent" but it doesn't answer the question of "what do I do for the other Chaos gods?"

Working with Pitched Battle Profile Factions and Allegiances being separate actually allows the system to work... unfortunately the folks who were proofreading GHB 2017... probably weren't playing Chaos. ;) So for them ... the Allegiance name and Pitched Battle Faction name were the same.

The Chaos gods demand much from their adherents. Including ... apparently ... complex requirements for Factions and their Allies, and what Allegiances one qualifies for... B|  

 

I fully agree that "functionally the same" is not equal to "the same."  I think you've illustrated in your Allegiance discussion of the Chaos gods some of the issue, although I think you're approaching it backwards.  The primary issue I see is that you've ignored the fact that Allegiance is the primary driver for building lists.  GW has spelled this out as the "first step" in the GHB.  You start with Allegiance first, because Allegiance is (or can be) bigger than factions.  Take for example your Allegiance Khorne example.  Allegiance Khorne is associated with Blades of Khorne.  That is where the Allegiance Khorne "battleline if" units are located for Khorne, in the Blades of Khorne faction.  No where else.  That is the book the allegiance is printed in.  Now, because of how the Khorne keyword is distributed, you can pull any unit marked with Khorne into this allegiance (or Blades of Khorne faction from your perspective).  But, at the end of the day, the Blades of Khorne faction is the faction that owns the Khorne Allegiance.  GW likely chose not to print every unit in every possible faction whose allegiance they can be in because of page restrictions.  

Now, in your Pestilens example, if you formed a force out of only Clan Pestilens units, you couldn't actually form a legal army out of anything other than a Pestilens Allegiance, because there are no generic battleline units present in that faction.  This is why allegiance is chosen first, as articulated in the GHB.  Because it will tell you what units you MUST include in order to build a legal army.  Just choosing the Clan Pestilens faction will get you nowhere if you don't declare Pestilens Allegiance.  

Each faction has an associated Keyword.  The faction charts are not exhaustive of all the units for those allegiances (demonstrated in not only the Chaos Gods factions/allegiances but also the Forgeworld models and their associated keywords/factions/allegiances).

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23 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Now, in your Pestilens example, if you formed a force out of only Clan Pestilens units, you couldn't actually form a legal army out of anything other than a Pestilens Allegiance, because there are no generic battleline units present in that faction.  This is why allegiance is chosen first, as articulated in the GHB.  Because it will tell you what units you MUST include in order to build a legal army.  Just choosing the Clan Pestilens faction will get you nowhere if you don't declare Pestilens Allegiance. 

By this reasoning they couldn't pick Allegiance: Chaos, as their BLifs are Allegiance: Pestilens only.

If they CAN pick Allegiance: Chaos (which it says they can on p116) before setting up any units (so presumably after all units have been picked) then surely they can pick any Allegiance they all have keywords for, like Skaven (unless theres a verminlord) or Nurgle?

Im still not convinced that a marked Slaves to Darkness army with no Blades/Disciples/Hosts units would use those factions' allies lists, or that Slaves units can cross into god-specific factions just by being marked.

However I do recognise that theres no such thing as, say, Hosts of Slaanesh allegiance, as you'd have to pick Slaanesh allegiance to unlock Hellstriders as BLif before you pick your army (and as mentioned there is no Hosts of Slaanesh keyword).

For my Slaanesh Slaves to Darkness army I guess I would pick Slaanesh allegiance (meaning no Slaves BLifs), and stick to Slaves faction allies, meaning my hellstriders, despite being Slaanesh BLif, would NOT count as BL as they are allies.

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1 hour ago, Captain Marius said:

By this reasoning they couldn't pick Allegiance: Chaos, as their BLifs are Allegiance: Pestilens only.

If they CAN pick Allegiance: Chaos (which it says they can on p116) before setting up any units (so presumably after all units have been picked) then surely they can pick any Allegiance they all have keywords for, like Skaven (unless theres a verminlord) or Nurgle?

Im still not convinced that a marked Slaves to Darkness army with no Blades/Disciples/Hosts units would use those factions' allies lists, or that Slaves units can cross into god-specific factions just by being marked.

However I do recognise that theres no such thing as, say, Hosts of Slaanesh allegiance, as you'd have to pick Slaanesh allegiance to unlock Hellstriders as BLif before you pick your army (and as mentioned there is no Hosts of Slaanesh keyword).

For my Slaanesh Slaves to Darkness army I guess I would pick Slaanesh allegiance (meaning no Slaves BLifs), and stick to Slaves faction allies, meaning my hellstriders, despite being Slaanesh BLif, would NOT count as BL as they are allies.

They can pick Chaos Allegiance Abilities (see image) even while being Pestilens allegiance, but they couldn't be Chaos Allegiance without having generic battleline units (none of which are in Pestilens).

 FullSizeRender.jpg.31c457cd18866a89190798806952eb40.jpg.f8dddb6cdd059aa55a7f53d7cd9f7163.jpg 

 

As noted, the rules say that allegiance is determined by keyword (even keyword gained upon setup).   In your Slaanesh allegiance army, anyone that has the Slaanesh keyword is in allegiance.  This is made clear in the discussion of allegiance (see page 116).

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1 hour ago, James Ramsay said:

Daemon plague toads of nurgle aren't daemons of nurgle right? So can't ally in with anything? 

Correct, they are not on any ally tables as they are on the Tamurkhan's Horde Pitched Battle Profile list. (And that force is not listed on any of the GHB 2017 ally lists.)

They have the "Chaos, Daemon, Nurgle" keywords.

But, if you go to the "parent" faction i.e. Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos you could add them into a Grand Alliance Chaos Army.

You then would be able to at least choose Allegiance:Chaos and if you made sure that all of the units had the Nurgle keyword you could use Allegiance:Nurgle which would at least give some "Battleline if" options. (Though the toads can't be battleline in that scenario.)

 

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4 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Correct, they are not on any ally tables as they are on the Tamurkhan's Horde Pitched Battle Profile list. (And that force is not listed on any of the GHB 2017 ally lists.)

They have the "Chaos, Daemon, Nurgle" keywords.

But, if you go to the "parent" faction i.e. Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos you could add them into a Grand Alliance Chaos Army.

You then would be able to at least choose Allegiance:Chaos and if you made sure that all of the units had the Nurgle keyword you could use Allegiance:Nurgle which would at least give some "Battleline if" options. (Though the toads can't be battleline in that scenario.)

 

This is not correct. They have been recently updated.  That also have the Tamurkhan's Horde keyword. They can be fully included in a Chaos, Nurgle or Tamurkhan's Horde allegiance army.
59b6f50aadd0d_ScreenShot2017-09-11at4_41_12PM.png.b1caf33d0cae50e45207197d357ca13c.png

Daemon-Plague-Toads-of-Nurgle-1-1.pdfDaemon-Plague-Toads-of-Nurgle-1-1.pdf

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Every time I get caught up with this thread, I go to work and I'm lost. 

@TheOtherJosh what, functionally, is a faction though? You're stating 'Faction: Grand Alliance Chaos' which in my mind isn't a thing. Factions were surely intended as subdivisions of the Grand Alliance. It seems there's needlessly two terms functioning in tandem (faction and allegiance). 

If I'm taking the Chaos allegiance abilities it's because all of my warscrolls share a keyword, therefore allowing me to select Chaos allegiance. I don't see that 'faction' serves any function but the name on a battletome. Perhaps GW need to drop the term altogether. 

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I keep trying to pin down exactly what the issues are — what questions would we actually ask GW, given the chance.

So far I have:

  1. Can I use one allegiance to determine what is battleline, while using the allegiance abilities of another? (e.g. Chaos Knights as battleline but Slaanesh Allegiance Abilities)
  2. If I want to use allies, do all my non-allied units have to come from a single table in the GHB2017 (or can I use Slaanesh Marauders and Hosts of Slaanesh Allies*)?
  3. If I want to use allies, do I have to use the allegiance abilities that match the faction I'm using the allies list of* (eg. can I use the Slaves to Darkness allies list but the Slaanesh allegiance abilities)?
  4. Do my allies have to come from the relevant table, or is it enough for them to have the relevant keyword* (e.g. Mourngul as a "Nighthaunt" ally for a Deadwalkers army.

*all these options assume Hosts of Slaanesh = Slaanesh, etc.

Does that cover it?

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