WYSIWYG?

[NiallJC1984]

Or for the uninitiated - What You See is What You Get...

How do you folks play this?  If I rocked up with a Verminlord Deceiver model but played him as a Warbringer at a tournament would you have any objection?

Individual TOs to decide or flat out not allowed in general?

Interested to know people's thoughts on this one

I'm a fairly easy going player so as long as a model is on an appropriate base, represents the model effectively and is costed to suit I'm not in the habit of objecting to things like this.

[Trouncin]

I'm with you on the subject. Not sure how tournaments usually do it but as long as its decently represented and there's no flip flopping on what it actually is I'm game!

 

[yarrickson]

9 hours ago, NiallJC1984 said:

Or for the uninitiated - What You See is What You Get...

How do you folks play this?  If I rocked up with a Verminlord Deceiver model but played him as a Warbringer at a tournament would you have any objection?

Individual TOs to decide or flat out not allowed in general?

Interested to know people's thoughts on this one

I'm a fairly easy going player so as long as a model is on an appropriate base, represents the model effectively and is costed to suit I'm not in the habit of objecting to things like this.

 I have no issue with some light proxying Niall, but be careful cause this bretonnian army is where you could end up.....

[Gaz Taylor]

Basically use common sense. In a casual game, I don't care but in a tournament it's a big no. No issue with you converting or doing something cool but some stuff is a no (such as Deceiver as a Warbringer)

[Shane]

A tournament I'd say WYSIWYG.

Casually I don't care as long as a) model looks cool b) you tell me what it is.

My friend's Chaos Warriors have mixed weapons because it looks cool but he always runs the unit as if they're double-handed weapons only.

[DamonRafael]

9 hours ago, NiallJC1984 said:

Or for the uninitiated - What You See is What You Get...

How do you folks play this?  If I rocked up with a Verminlord Deceiver model but played him as a Warbringer at a tournament would you have any objection?

Individual TOs to decide or flat out not allowed in general?

Interested to know people's thoughts on this one

I'm a fairly easy going player so as long as a model is on an appropriate base, represents the model effectively and is costed to suit I'm not in the habit of objecting to things like this.

I'm totally fine if you play a unit of wrathmongers as skullreapers in casual games. For tournaments, I would say that you have to have the unit you're going to play, with some exceptions:

if you have a treelord and you want to play it like Durthu, or ancient treelord, I'm fine. If you want to play a Chaos Knights unit armed with A while the model itself is equipped with B, I'm fine as long as you inform me. If you want to play wrathmongers but you have skullreapers then... no  

[Durant]

 If you convert a model or change it for the purpose of it being more cool I am ok with that. If you do it to have an advantage in the game (rules wise) then I am not.
I would be happy to play with pony bretonia, as it took thinking and time to do, also it looks cool.
 In Mordheim I play chaos dwarfs on dwarfs rules, just because I like the models and there are no good rules for chaos dwarfs for Mordheim. But I know that people try to play different warbands on beastmen rules simply  coz their warband is strong.
This shows that proxing models can make the game more fun but it can also ruin it.

[Nico]

Chaos units are often modelled with a mixture of weapons because it looks cooler and more chaotic (ditto orcs). So I'm pretty flexible on weapon choices as long as you tell me. Similarly, very many champion models are armed with a sword instead of a lance or whatever (so you can see it's the champion, e.g. Dragon Princes) - also ditto standard bearers and musicians in a unit of double handed weapons. However, you clearly don't want to have to roll separately for the champion and look up a different weapon profile. 

[RuneBrush]

Personally I think it depends entirely on the game in question and ultimately what the aim is.  I've played proxies to try out units before buying/painting and played against opponents who only fielded flying bases as they'd not managed to finish painting up some rot flys and I think that's fine for casuals.  Where I draw the line is when a model isn't recognisable or is very tenuous, especially if it's a long-term addition to an army.  For example, running a unit of Skullreapers as Wraithbringers is fine for a game or two at home to prove that you're happy with them, but after a while you'll need to make some effort to put in place something that more accurately represents that unit.

Tournaments should be down to the organiser, but I'd not create an army that could be ambiguous as it would cause more issues than its worth.

Awesome looking conversions should always be allowed, even if it's not 100% accurate - however you have to be a little more careful in AoS as you can mix weapons in units.

I also have the same opinion on 'home grown' armies.  If you're using the rules for Wraithbringers on a custom unit then they need to have some kind of flail weapon - not spears, swords, shields etc.

[polarbear]

For my own army, I like getting as close to WYSIWYG as possible. Don't really care about other people using alternative models, unless it gets confusing. I probably wouldn't even notice if you said your lord is an alternative version of the other lord, but if you were running sword guys as archers it might get weird. 

[The Stronghold]

In a tournament setting, if it's somewhat close to what it should be (like a conversion or weapon swap) and you're totally open and clear about what it's supposed to be, then I wouldn't really mind.

Outside of tournaments, I'd also be OK with say, someone completely proxying a different unit to try it out before making a time and money investment it's that's made clear beforehand.

That said, you automatically get more leeway IMO if there's a great theme to the army

Just don't be a beardy git by using a lack of WYSIWYG to mislead your opponent or to purely gain a gaming advantage

[NiallJC1984]

Hi folks!

Thanks for the replies, I'm glad it's generated some debate! Although I really don't want to paint another Verminlord so I'm beginning to wish I'd magnetised my Deceiver  

might have to bring out the Dremel haha!

[Nico]

I know the feeling. I've used a Ghorghon (with added Skaven on the base) as a second Verminlord).

 

It's hard to do a Ben Johnson and paint multiple copies of the same monster. I'm pondering a formation featuring 3 Ghorgons (especially bad as they don't seem to have much pose variation), but might have to use close proxies.

[NiallJC1984]

57 minutes ago, Nico said:

I know the feeling. I've used a Ghorghon (with added Skaven on the base) as a second Verminlord).

 

It's hard to do a Ben Johnson and paint multiple copies of the same monster. I'm pondering a formation featuring 3 Ghorgons (especially bad as they don't seem to have much pose variation), but might have to use close proxies.

So a Ghorgon as a Verminlord is OK?  Would you take that to a Tournament and get away with it?

[Aaron Schmidt]

As an aside its important to delineate 'counts as', I like this model better, or better fits a theme, from proxy, I have some chaos warriors and I want to play them as chosen. Both can cause some confusion with your opponent which is the issue. When gaming outside of an event be super clear what is what, the burden of clarity is on you. For events you would have to ask TOs. Send them a pic if its a potentially confusing conversion or something. 

[Knight of Ruin]

In tournaments: WYSIWYG, always. 

 

In casual play, i don't mind if it's done properly. If my opponent is going to play a cola can for a steamtank or a barbie doll for a giant, then it's not cool. But cool conversions are always welcome, as long they are clear (or explained).

In addition to that, it should sort of be consistent. So if you say that the guy with the shield in that unit has a special weapon, then there shouldn't be 2 or 3 guys with shields

[nuttyknatty]

I'm with the majority too, I think.

Friendly games pretty much anything goes, and for tournament play, as long as clearly explained and not too confusing to keep track of, then proxies are fine (although there may be a limit (remember buggate?)).

 

[Nico]

Quote

So a Ghorgon as a Verminlord is OK?  Would you take that to a Tournament and get away with it?

I did get away with it. I stuck some warp stone on its face and little Skaven on the base. Similar height and idea to the model.

[Lysandestolpe]

I have always WYSIWYG'd in tournament out of respect of the opposing players, and most of the time it is tournament rules to not proxy anything. However, had I seen that Bretonnia army at a tournament I would have flipped ****** and asked to game it instantly! But that's me, I love creativity as long as it has some theme or quality and that army most definitely has a theme! 

As I played 40k in torunaments and just got into AoS, I would say I had a harder time dealing with people using a Space Marine with a Heavy Bolter as a Lascannon than a complete proxy army of Greenstuff globs with some swords and eyes as Nurgle Demons (which i did play against once, and it looked terrible). ^^

[Stevewren]

7 hours ago, Nico said:

I did get away with it. I stuck some warp stone on its face and little Skaven on the base. Similar height and idea to the model.

You'd have to be very careful with this at a tournament though, particularly a large event. If you want to use such a conversion idea i'd always email the event organiser first and check, as you don't want someone coming up and saying its a no no

[Paul@DiceFiend.com]

At this stage in my AoS life I wouldn't know the difference so would just hope you'd clarify and I'd probably just say, "Meh".

[NiallJC1984]

5 hours ago, Paul@DiceFiend.com said:

At this stage in my AoS life I wouldn't know the difference so would just hope you'd clarify and I'd probably just say, "Meh".

Yeah - this is exactly how I feel. I don't know the units or armies well enough to care. Maybe I'm too casual a gamer haha.

[someone2040]

In a tournament, WYSIWYG definitely for AoS.

Casual environment not as fussed unless there's a ton of stuff to remember (Like if every unit in the army is armed with something else, etc). Then it would likely get a bit frustrating.

I think given that most comp systems don't care what weapons units are armed with, and there's less variance in power between weapon options, people should generally just try to play WYSIWYG.

 

The only exception I think is special characters proxying as non-special characters. Pretty fine with that, some people just want a cool model for their character but don't want to use the special characters rules.

[Gotrek]

IMO a verminlord is a verminlord is a verminlord. Same with bloodthirsters. Just because you like the look of one variant better doesn't mean you should be locked out of using it as the other 2. Also I'd love to play that long Bretonnia army. I think it looks fantastic and is pretty creative. Having played against corn chips and with slips of paper on movement trays I have no issue in friendly games doing whatever as long as you're either testing it out before you buy, or if the kit is a multi-build kit (like the BTs and the verminlord). You just need to make it crystal clear to your opponent before the game starts what is counting as what.

Honestly until AoS came around most of the time my generic heroes were just normal rank and file models with a different paint job. Now I feel it's important to delineate them a bit more (different pose or weapon swap for example) since its not as clear as it used to be (hey that knight of the realm is off on his own so that's pretty obvious he's a paladin isn't as easy since there's no locked formations)

[NiallJC1984]

Seems like this is an opinion that will come down to individual TOs I suppose. I also suppose it might come down to how tough the competition is and how willing you are to help your opponent.

I think I'll play it safe and PM the next TO