Can't get my head around Re-rolls and modifiers

[Ian R]

Is there a good explanation of this anywhere?  The new faqs refers to this rule, which is not new, but I really need some clearly written examples which assume nothing to help me " get it". 

[Tasman]

15 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

1. Rend still affects the results as you expect when there are no rerolls. 

2. -1 to hit doesn't affect rerolling 1s because the rerolls take place before modifiers - you get to rerolls the natural 1s. 

3. You can stack minuses to hit to make it "impossible" to hit; however, the new rules of one state that 6s to hit are always successful, so even if you give a unit -10 to their "to hit" rolls they still succeed on 6s. 

4. If a unit gets a special bonus for rolling a 6 to hit, that is affected by +/- to hit. Give them +1 and they get the bonus on 5s and 6s. Give them -1 instead and they can't get the bonus. 

Thanks a lot. I feel better now as that's how I've been playing (and explaining to others) it.

[rokapoke]

10 minutes ago, Tittliewinks22 said:

Since modifiers apply after roll, the Latchkey Grandaxe rule on runefather is basically worthless vs rend?

Right, unless you're in cover or have another method to boost your save. 

[Tittliewinks22]

Since modifiers apply after roll, the Latchkey Grandaxe rule on runefather is basically worthless vs rend?

[Frozenbeast]

On 9/11/2017 at 12:58 PM, rokapoke said:

1. Rend still affects the results as you expect when there are no rerolls. 

2. -1 to hit doesn't affect rerolling 1s because the rerolls take place before modifiers - you get to rerolls the natural 1s. 

3. You can stack minuses to hit to make it "impossible" to hit; however, the new rules of one state that 6s to hit are always successful, so even if you give a unit -10 to their "to hit" rolls they still succeed on 6s. 

4. If a unit gets a special bonus for rolling a 6 to hit, that is affected by +/- to hit. Give them +1 and they get the bonus on 5s and 6s. Give them -1 instead and they can't get the bonus. 

Are you sure abilities don t trigger? even if the description says "on a 6 or more"?  I mean I am refering to the Sisters of the Thorne's shiled which is an ability that trigger on save rolls and I am quite sure it triggers even when modifiers are applied as the rule of one states "hit, wound and save rolls". Are you refering to all abilities or it depends on how they trigger?

 

edit: forget about that i remembered wrong

[Kramer]

21 minutes ago, Sastopher said:

For instance, 5 pack masters have buffed a stormfiend with shock gauntlets. The stormfiend rolls a 1. The attack "automatically misses", but does the rule still attempt substitution?

When you roll the one the attack misses, so the sequence is stopped and any bonuses to hit are not applied. 

So it means the effect won't take place.

[Sastopher]

10 hours ago, rokapoke said:

That is correct. The Blightkings could be given -10 to hit, but natural 6s would still succeed. However, the D6 hits ability is only activated when the result is a 6+ after modifiers, so giving them even a -1 to hit means it won't happen. 

Woah, this is really counter-intuitive to me. If we follow this logic, then doesn't that mean the opposite is true? A unit with a special trait that triggers on 6+ firing even though the attack missed on a 1, with sufficient bonuses?

For instance, 5 pack masters have buffed a stormfiend with shock gauntlets. The stormfiend rolls a 1. The attack "automatically misses", but does the rule still attempt substitution?

Quote

If the hit roll for an attack made by a Shock Gauntlet is 6 or more, that attack scores D6 hits rather than 1

"rather than 1" is incongruous here, which you might argue negates the effect. Feels really weird to me though. And hypothetically, would it be different if the rule said "instead" there?

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, Tasman said:

I'm sure that this will become automatic for me as I play more. I never gave this any thought before. Now that I read this thread it kind of confused me a bit. The light is starting to glimmer now.

I've been there but following a order of things such as @rokapoke mentioned really helps. At some point it will click and then only in the wierder examples you will have to go back to it  

[Tasman]

I'm sure that this will become automatic for me as I play more. I never gave this any thought before. Now that I read this thread it kind of confused me a bit. The light is starting to glimmer now.

[rokapoke]

3 minutes ago, Tasman said:

Umm, see above. Which is it? Blightkings that are affected by -1 to hit shouldn't get the d6 on 6s as the 6s become 5s. Rule of one says 6s always hit before modifiers. So:

a six will always hit regardless of any modifiers that would cause a roll to miss, but won't trigger any special traits?

That is correct. The Blightkings could be given -10 to hit, but natural 6s would still succeed. However, the D6 hits ability is only activated when the result is a 6+ after modifiers, so giving them even a -1 to hit means it won't happen. 

[Tasman]

2 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Rule of one applies after re-rolls, but before modifiers.

Umm, see above. Which is it? Blightkings that are affected by -1 to hit shouldn't get the d6 on 6s as the 6s become 5s. Rule of one says 6s always hit before modifiers. So:

a six will always hit regardless of any modifiers that would cause a roll to miss, but won't trigger any special traits?

[Squirrelmaster]

Rule of one applies after re-rolls, but before modifiers.

[Rubencm81]

Related to this post... will a modifier change the Rule of 1 or not? I mean, If I roll 1-2-2-2 and I have +1 to hit and re-roll, will that 1 become a 2 and the 2s will become a 3 without any re-roll?

 

Quote

As an aside, when an ability says you can re-roll a
failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that any modifiers will have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4 or more and you have a +1 modifier, you don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied! 

 

[rokapoke]

7 minutes ago, Tasman said:

So this is only in the case of rerolls, right? I mean, rend 1 is unaffected as well as stuff like -1 to hit etc in a normal turn with no preroll.

And exactly how does -1 to hit work with rerolling 1s? And does -1 to hit mean that in some cases it's impossible to hit someone? i.e. a boobsnake lord with a group of hell striders affecting a unit that is also within 3" of him, so -2 to hit him. Sixes would still hit.

As for blight kings, +1 to hit gives them the d6 on 5s. Does -1 to hit take it away?

1. Rend still affects the results as you expect when there are no rerolls. 

2. -1 to hit doesn't affect rerolling 1s because the rerolls take place before modifiers - you get to rerolls the natural 1s. 

3. You can stack minuses to hit to make it "impossible" to hit; however, the new rules of one state that 6s to hit are always successful, so even if you give a unit -10 to their "to hit" rolls they still succeed on 6s. 

4. If a unit gets a special bonus for rolling a 6 to hit, that is affected by +/- to hit. Give them +1 and they get the bonus on 5s and 6s. Give them -1 instead and they can't get the bonus. 

[Tasman]

So this is only in the case of rerolls, right? I mean, rend 1 is unaffected as well as stuff like -1 to hit etc in a normal turn with no preroll.

And exactly how does -1 to hit work with rerolling 1s? And does -1 to hit mean that in some cases it's impossible to hit someone? i.e. a boobsnake lord with a group of hell striders affecting a unit that is also within 3" of him, so -2 to hit him. Sixes would still hit.

As for blight kings, +1 to hit gives them the d6 on 5s. Does -1 to hit take it away?

[rokapoke]

8 minutes ago, Ian R said:

Yes it does. Thanks.  In that 2nd example in the past on the first save roll of a 4 our group would have simply made the re roll and be happy to get a 5.  This is saying they don't get that chance to re roll. Starting to understand and seems quite important!

Yes, it's the difference between two different ways to rank the "strength" of rend and rerolls.

1. Reroll > rend. This is the way your group has done this in the past.

2. Rend > reroll. This is the way the FAQ clarifies such interactions to work.

[Ian R]

Yes it does. Thanks.  In that 2nd example in the past on the first save roll of a 4 our group would have simply made the re roll and be happy to get a 5.  This is saying they don't get that chance to re roll. Starting to understand and seems quite important!

[TheOtherJosh]

14 minutes ago, Ian R said:

Sorry Nico can you expand your example,  why not re rolled?   #ineed anew brain

Rules FAQ p. 7 v1.2 

Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?
A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied,
so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll.

As an aside, when an ability says you can re-roll a
failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that any modifiers will have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4 or more and you have a +1 modifier, you don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied! 

The key item to remember is that modifiers happen after re-rolls.

Remember that Rend is a negative modifier. 

Quick overview of the process:

1. Roll, determine innate success or failure of the roll.

2. Can it be rerolled? If so, do you want to reroll?

3. Apply Modifiers. 

4. Determine whether attack was able to bypass the save.

example:

Kurnoth hits a unit with an attack that does rend -1.

The unit attacked has a 4+ save. And this unit can reroll failed saves.

The unit rolls a 4 for the save and "successfully saves". As they are only allowed to "reroll failed saves" and this save meets the requirement of a 4+ the save was successful.

Modifiers are then applied, and the 4+ Save is modified by -1 to a 3.

The rending attack bypasses the armor and the save fails.

If the roll for the save had been a 5, and not a 4, it would have also been initially a successful roll, but when the -1 rend was applied it would have still have met the 4+ requirement to save. And the save would have been successful.

(Does that help?)

 

 

[Ian R]

Sorry Nico can you expand your example,  why not re rolled?   #ineed anew brain

[Nico]

The better one is Kurnoths with -1 to save. 

You test whether the save is successful on the unmodified roll - so a 4, 5 or 6 is successful and cannot be rerolled.

Hence rolls of 4 cannot be rerolled and then are modified to a 3, which fails.

[Arkiham]

Yeah that's correct  

[TerrorPenguin]

The key word in any rule which you attempt to apply this is 'can', which is not the same as must. 

Eg. My kurnoth hunters have a 4+ save, I activate their tanglethorn thicket allowing me to re roll saves. I also cast mystic shield on them giving a +1 to their save roll.

I roll a 3 for a save. If I 'must' re roll saves then I would have to re roll this. However my ability says I 'can' re roll saves. I choose not to re roll. Now we apply the +1 modifier to my roll, 3+1=4 so I have passed my save.

I have fulfiled the rules because I applied my re rolls before modifiers, even though I choose not to re roll the dice.

This is how I understand it anyway. I suspect you are playing it correctly because 99÷ of the time people abbreviate this to '3's rerolling 1's and 2's' which is effectively the same thing. 

[Antipodean7]

I'm doing a show on it next week which have an accompanying blog post and a number of worked examples.  Hopefully that will help.