Let's chat mixed Chaos

[Darksider]

Starting this thread to discuss mixed chaos armies, that don't fit into disciples of tzeentch, blades of Khorne or the new nurgle release .

 

So to start the discussion, what are you guys bringing to your games after the new generals handbook? How do you find the reworked Alligiance for Chaos (even when only a few things got slightly changed)?

 

[Flood]

I'm really sad about the crown of conquest, I play mixed chaos with all skaven (thinking I should branch out soon), and double inspiring was much needed. It's not much of a crown of conquest anymore, more like a tiara of conquest. 

Id also be interested to hear about people's pure skaven  (e.g. mixed chaos, so sad) lists. 

[Darksider]

Yeah the crown nerf really sucks. On a 3+ it would be okay, even on a 4+ it would not suck that hard. I think it's a wasted artefact slot atm.

About skaven, i don't know what people are playing. Think it will go towards Plaguemonks with Furnace and Priest + Corruptor or you play Skryre with Stormfiends + Grinder and Thrower teams.

[Vomikron Noxis]

Aside from a big blob of plaguebearers, what's your go to battleline choice for a mixed army? More plaguebearers?

[Darksider]

I like Plaguebearers as you said, but also 1 or 2 small squads of Pink Horrors (if you don't play a Secrator or only one and have no other wizards).

Bloodwarriors are also really good, as they bring some punch and Reavers are nice as cheap battleline or you play them as a big horde with buffs (Secrator, Aspiring Deathbringer etc).

You also can use Daemonettes in small squads, but i like a block of 30 Plaguebearers 10 Bloodwarriors (maybe will try a block of 30) for games at 1000 points and for 2000 i have no idea yet^^.

 

 

[Arkiham]

The blood secrator isn't an issue for allies casting spells, 

Ability order in the hero phase solves it.

[Vomikron Noxis]

1 hour ago, Darksider said:

I like Plaguebearers as you said, but also 1 or 2 small squads of Pink Horrors (if you don't play a Secrator or only one and have no other wizards).

Bloodwarriors are also really good, as they bring some punch and Reavers are nice as cheap battleline or you play them as a big horde with buffs (Secrator, Aspiring Deathbringer etc).

You also can use Daemonettes in small squads, but i like a block of 30 Plaguebearers 10 Bloodwarriors (maybe will try a block of 30) for games at 1000 points and for 2000 i have no idea yet^^.

 

 

Yeh I'm leaning towards blobs of plaguebearers generally. Great staying power and a good price. Need something else to do the killing though!

[Flood]

15 minutes ago, Vomikron Noxis said:

Yeh I'm leaning towards blobs of plaguebearers generally. Great staying power and a good price. Need something else to do the killing though!

Stand 6 stormfiends with warpfire projectors behind them. They'll do plenty of killing for you :p. 

[Vomikron Noxis]

1 hour ago, Flood said:

Stand 6 stormfiends with warpfire projectors behind them. They'll do plenty of killing for you :p. 

Still worth doing without Sayl?

[Darksider]

2 hours ago, Arkiham said:

The blood secrator isn't an issue for allies casting spells, 

Ability order in the hero phase solves it.

Thank you for the info, always forget that you can choose which spells or abilities resolve first .

 

1 hour ago, Flood said:

Stand 6 stormfiends with warpfire projectors behind them. They'll do plenty of killing for you :p. 

You mean through a block of 30 Plaguebearers? Don't you have issues with the 8" reach ?

 

18 minutes ago, Vomikron Noxis said:

Still worth doing without Sayl?

Think they are still good, even without Sayl. They are slower now, without him.

[Vomikron Noxis]

Yeh that's my concern. Can you mix weapons in the unit? A bunch of skyfires with shaman might be better for dishing out mortal wounds, and the speed is great.

[Darksider]

Don't know, but i think you can. Probably makes the fiends worse, as you have different ranges for shooting.

Yeah Shaman + Skyfire are good, but now more expansive as before.

[Flood]

39 minutes ago, Vomikron Noxis said:

Still worth doing without Sayl?

I do think they are still good. Sayl made them broken. Just cause they aren't broken anymore doesn't mean they still aren't a great unit. You just have to be a bit more tactical rather than the mindless hail Mary toward a problem unit to evaporate them. 

20 minutes ago, Darksider said:

You mean through a block of 30 Plaguebearers? Don't you have issues with the 8" reach ?

When you charge in the plague bearers, or even during movement (if you are anticipating receiving a charge) you have to position the big unit such that the stormfiends have valleys to step into. I do it with 40 clanrats and it seems to work for me. Just takes planning. This is why movement trays arent always the greatest idea imo. Remember the point of the blob (whether plague bearers clanrats) isn't to do damage, it to hold the line. You won't get in as many into combat, but that's not the goal. 

I do something like this  (very roughly outlined) 

X = clanrat 

Y = stormfiend

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxx Y xxxx Y xxx

xx       xxxx.         xx

Sorry sending this from my phone so its hard hehe. 

Anyway im no pro so take my advice with a grain of salt. 

[Kugane]

1 hour ago, Flood said:

I do think they are still good. Sayl made them broken. Just cause they aren't broken anymore doesn't mean they still aren't a great unit. You just have to be a bit more tactical rather than the mindless hail Mary toward a problem unit to evaporate them. 

When you charge in the plague bearers, or even during movement (if you are anticipating receiving a charge) you have to position the big unit such that the stormfiends have valleys to step into. I do it with 40 clanrats and it seems to work for me. Just takes planning. This is why movement trays arent always the greatest idea imo. Remember the point of the blob (whether plague bearers clanrats) isn't to do damage, it to hold the line. You won't get in as many into combat, but that's not the goal. 

I do something like this  (very roughly outlined) 

X = clanrat 

Y = stormfiend

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxx Y xxxx Y xxx

xx       xxxx.         xx

Sorry sending this from my phone so its hard hehe. 

Anyway im no pro so take my advice with a grain of salt. 

Can't your stormfriends just be sniped with ranged attacks though? Or is that no longer a thing in GHB2017? They are quite dominantly visible on the field ><

[Darksider]

Maybe if he can see them, but it seems difficult to position them exactly the way, that you get something in range with the Flamer and then can punch it in combat afterwards.

[Screwface]

I played Beastmen in 8th. They immediately became my favorite army despite not being massively competitive, and have remained an army I've always had a soft spot for. Lots of other armies have come and gone for me, but I've always gone back to them. I stupidly sold  most of my Beasts a few years ago, and then focused on other forces as 8th became the End Times and the End Times led to AoS. But I've decided to  go back to my Beasts and to try to build something as close to  what I used to play as possible (I used to go Minotaur heavy - what used to be called the "Minobus", which was a load of minotaurs led by a Doombull and 2 Gorebulls (like a Doombull but a bit less killy ) and then  I used to mix some Gors and a few other units in). Mixed Chaos seems the best avenue for me to do this, as the splitting up of Brayherd and Warherd was a  real disappointment for me, as was the fact that Warherd didn't get their own allegiance in GH17. I'm aware that something like this is never going to be ultra-competitive, but what I have in mind is:

- Doombull with the trait that allows you to pick a unit and give them +1 to hit (reserved for my unit of great weapon Bullgors as 4s to hit always makes me nervous).

- 6x Bullgors with great weapons and 6x Bullgors with dual hand weapons - the former for more heavily armored stuff, and the latter to throw at hoards).  Dual hand weapon  Bullgors can roam a lot further from the Doombull than the great axe unit can, as long as they're within 16" for the +1 to wound buff. 

- 1 Ghorgon and 1 Cygor (yeah I know 2 Ghorgons would be more "effective", but aesthetically I think the  inclusion of one of each looks so much better).

- 3x20 dual hand weapon Gor units (good for grabbing objectives, decent-ish in combat if buffed, and most importantly they fill my battleline requirements).

-  1x dual hand weapon Beastlord with Crown of Command, and 1x Bray Shaman for casting mystic shield (the nerfing of Crown of Command is a definite blow, as being able to rely on the Beastlord's command ability for a potential +1 to hit would have been good, but  as the Beastlord's command ability is conditional itself I figure it's not as big a blow as it might have been.)

- That leaves me with just over 100 points to play around with. I have an old Tuskgor Chariot lying around, or maybe a unit of Warhounds for that old-school feel, or some Razorgors.

 

[Flood]

5 hours ago, Darksider said:

Maybe if he can see them, but it seems difficult to position them exactly the way, that you get something in range with the Flamer and then can punch it in combat afterwards.

Not sure what you're referring to exactly. I try and keep the stormfiends out of combat, so the goal for me at least is not to do damage with the stormfiends melee, it's to do damage with the flamers and avoid damage by receiving it with the clanrats. Preferably I'd remain 5-6 inches away to prevent enemy pile in. So my troughs won't need to be as deep as i diagrammed - as i said, that was a very rough diagram. You just need to make some sort of shallow depression so the fiends can get within 8 inches. Its not that difficult really. 

The melee damage output by the stormfiends is pretty good, but it's not the greatest. I prefer to keep them back and prevent losses as the majority of the damage is coming from the flamers. Each time you lose a single stormfiend, you lose 2d3 damage. I'm not sure that's worth dishing out some extra wounds from melee, which can also be saved as they aren't mortal. 

2 hours ago, Screwface said:

Can't your stormfriends just be sniped with ranged attacks though? Or is that no longer a thing in GHB2017? They are quite dominantly visible on the field ><

Ya the stormfiends would take fire, but they would take fire anyway. I'm not sure how taking fire changes anything as they would take fire whether in combat or not. 

 

[Screwface]

22 minutes ago, Flood said:

Not sure what you're referring to exactly. I try and keep the stormfiends out of combat, so the goal for me at least is not to do damage with the stormfiends melee, it's to do damage with the flamers and avoid damage by receiving it with the clanrats. Preferably I'd remain 5-6 inches away to prevent enemy pile in. So my troughs won't need to be as deep as i diagrammed - as i said, that was a very rough diagram. You just need to make some sort of shallow depression so the fiends can get within 8 inches. Its not that difficult really. 

The melee damage output by the stormfiends is pretty good, but it's not the greatest. I prefer to keep them back and prevent losses as the majority of the damage is coming from the flamers. Each time you lose a single stormfiend, you lose 2d3 damage. I'm not sure that's worth dishing out some extra wounds from melee, which can also be saved as they aren't mortal. 

Ya the stormfiends would take fire, but they would take fire anyway. I'm not sure how taking fire changes anything as they would take fire whether in combat or not. 

 

Hi Flood, I didn't actually write the quote you attributed to me :-)

[Flood]

3 hours ago, Screwface said:

Hi Flood, I didn't actually write the quote you attributed to me :-)

What the heck!? How did that happen? I just clicked the quote button and started typing away... didn't even realize the name was wrong. But I wonder why the quoted comment was correct :o. Well I'm sending from my phone so maybe it had a CPU ****** or something. Sorry bout that hehe. 

[Darksider]

So, how would you make a decent 1000 point mixed chaos army?

Thouht long about it, but actually i have no idea how to build it. Some ideas were Belakor, + Rage Thirster + 2x10 Reaver + Varanguard (but i find them to expansive for what they do).

Another idea was 30 Plaguebearers, Gaunt Summoner, Daemonprince of Nurgle, 10 Pink Horrors + Belakor.

I don't know if 30 Plaguebearers will do anything, without buffs and if they are necessary in a 1000 points game.

 

Do you have any ideas?

[Darksider]

Made a new list for a 1000 point tournament.

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)
- Staff of Change
Gaunt Summoner (120)
Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (260)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
- Artefact: Chaos Runeblade

Battleline
10 x Daemonettes Of Slaanesh (100)
10 x Daemonettes Of Slaanesh (100)
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
- Khorne Daemon Battleline (Karanak General)
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
- Khorne Daemon Battleline (Karanak General)
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
- Khorne Daemon Battleline (Karanak General)

Total: 1000/1000

 

Lots of fast units, only the herald of tzeentch and the gaunt summoner are slow. 38 Models, 5 unbinds against Disciples of tzeentch, gaunt summoner against hordes, tzeentch herald to dish out mortal wounds. Daemonettes are also fast, have rend and can hurt if they ever see close combat.

What do you think of this?

[misthv]

Playing around w a mixed chaos list... needless to say its going to play ORDER! I'd happily make some switches, maybe even throwing some Tzeentch in there to make better use of the Dark avenger trait. 

WoC + bloodstoker to send bloodletters flying, maybe conga-lining for that +1 to hit from the WoK. 

Crushers for shock-trooping (D6 mortal wounds is sweet) and holding some objective (and area denial)

Reavers for initial bubble-wrapping and then ... dying or charging

Blood warriors for objective holding

Daemonsmith protected by the talisman to baby-sit the artillery

Artillery - wreck havoc! 

 

Thoughts?

 

EDIT: Might drop 3 crushers for +10 Reavers and a Gaunt Summoner for more magic and anti-horde! 

 

1	Wrath of Khorne Blood Thirster - Command trait: Dark avenger +1 to hit against ORDER within 10"	Leader, General	330
1	Bloodstoker	Leader	80
30	Bloodletters	Battleline	270
6	Mighty Skullcrushers		280
1	Bloodsecrator	Leader	120
10	Blood warriors	Battleline	200
30	Bloodreavers	Battleline	210
1	Daemonsmith - Artifact of chaos: Chaos talisman (ward 6+, 5+ against ORDER)	Leader	100
1	Deathshrieker rocket launcher	Artillery	120
1	Magma cannon	Artillery	140
1	Magma cannon	Artillery	140
83			1990

[Darksider]

Seems like a really good army. Why not push the Reaver up to maximum, so you get the discount? (only problem, would be that you have to kick something instead of )

 

Btw:  Any ideas for my army above, or is it decent enough?

[jkav86]

On ‎01‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 1:46 PM, Screwface said:

- 1 Ghorgon and 1 Cygor (yeah I know 2 Ghorgons would be more "effective", but aesthetically I think the  inclusion of one of each looks so much better).

I think it is very true that 2 Ghorgons are better, but I really love the way that the Cygor looks and have tried to squeeze mine into games. He usually does nothing for me, I have yet to have his rock throw hit, but that's just my crappy rolling >.<

[misthv]

1 hour ago, Darksider said:

 

Btw:  Any ideas for my army above, or is it decent enough?

I usually have a hard time building 1k mixed lists since it's hard to create "blocks" that "synergize". Your list I feel lack synergies, although you do have a reasoning/role for each unit which is great :-) My 2 cents: Herald does not dish out MW reliably as the casting value for its unique spell is quite high (9). Flesh hounds really miss a Bloodsecrator or something to give them an edge. They're fast on their own but go down fast and are not that cheap. Daemonettes I lack experience of, but it seems to be they benefit from greater numbers. A BT is always great, but at 260 points (@1k) you'd likely need some synergies/clear role to really benefit from the investment. Also I lack any objective holding capabilities in the list!