Screamers and Flamers in GH2, still too expensive or viable now?

[themortalgod]

So looking through my new GH2 and I noticed that Screamers and Flamers got a points reduction which was certainly needed, they felt completely unplayable before. 

Looking at the new pts costs they seem more viable but still too expensive to me. For 20pts more Skyfires are still more attractive than Flamers given that they are so much more resilient and bring more firepower and far more close combat performance. 

Screamers feel closer to being ok but they also seem a bit overcosted to me for what they do. Comparing to Tzaangor Enlightened for 30% more pts they are 25% tougher and far more potent in close combat. Though, I can see there being some value in the faster screamer movement. 

What are everyone else's thought? With the Skyfire nerf I was hoping for some of the other units to step into the limelight but at a glance, they still feel a bit underwhelming. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ssharkus]

I have 12 flamers and 12 screamers, but as far as i can see they will still stay on my shelf, collecting dust. 

Screamers need rend or damage increase. Flamers just need to be 150-160 i guess.

[Darksider]

Flamers got slightly cheaper, but they are still to expansive at 180. They really should lower their cost down to 160 or even less or change their special rule a bit, so it don't heal enemy models anymore, or maybe give their flameattack rend -1 ?

Screamers look better now, but i also can't see them beeing taken in an army, maybe for summoning sometimes or as a small squad of 6 screamers, to herass lonely wizards or warmachines.

[CyderPirate]

The value of flamers increased a bit, though, with the new battleplans focusing on horde units.  Don't know if they're better than Skyfires (haven't picked any up yet) but I've always found them really good at chewing through lightly-armoured hordes - on the rare occasions that they I saw any! 

Haven't played with screamers yet, either, so no idea where they fit it. Might be good for summoning in a few of the scenarios - like the one where you can destroy objectives in your opponent's half.

 

 

 

[themortalgod]

I think my main struggle with flamers is they are so very squishy at 60pts and its not like they have crazy damage output to compensate.  A single D6 MW ability (pretty common) can erase 180pts worth of models in a single shot if it gets lucky and its not like we can really protect them other than cowering behind cover which means they won't be effective either. I could see if a volley of fire from 3 flamers was terrifying so it becomes a game of protecting them to get off some devastating attack but in reality their output is just "ok", 180pts of horrors is going to bring quite a bit more damage output if you factor in them casting a spell and shooting and the horrors are a lot more resilient. Def a different battlefield role since they are so much slower but imo flamers should bring some impressive pain if they are going to be glass cannons, which they just don't. 3 Flamers do ~4.5 damage per turn to something without armor with a 50% chance to do an extra 1.5 and a 16% chance to heal them for 1.5. 

For screamers I feel they have two useful but very specific situations, and other than that they are outclassed by something else in DoT:

1. Fighting monsters. The D3 damage actually makes them a threat, unfortunately, no rend kinda hurts.  Though, even at this spamming a few MW spells at the monster is likely more efficient at killing the monster

2. Tar pitting stuff that depends on roll of 6 effects (skeleton righteous smiting, bloodletter MWs, Daemonette bonus attacks, etc) but it depends on having a herald nearby.  They are also very good at tar pitting stuff that has a ton of 5+ to hit attacks as it makes the locus cut the damage output in half.  A good example being big units of spear armed chafe that have a 5+ to hit base. 100 (30 guys) Unbuffed skeleton spearmen attacks do 5 wounds to screamers, that's pretty good given that volume of swings.  

 

[TheOtherJosh]

Remember that the roll to split your flamers is at each model removed.

Screamers nullifying "auto-hit because of a roll of 6" good on stuff hat has poor to hit.

They both would likely work much better in combination with a herald on disc. (Or Chariot) (as mentioned above)

Eternal Conflagration also leverages Flamers nicely with the LoC, keeping the LoC out of harms way.

Is it perfect? No, but from a points cost, it is better than previous, and in a more Daemon-Centric Tzeentch army it might be better than expected. (Especially with the changes to the Changehost.)

[themortalgod]

11 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Remember that the roll to split your flamers is at each model removed.

Screamers nullifying "auto-hit because of a roll of 6" good on stuff hat has poor to hit.

They both would likely work much better in combination with a herald on disc. (Or Chariot) (as mentioned above)

Eternal Conflagration also leverages Flamers nicely with the LoC, keeping the LoC out of harms way.

Is it perfect? No, but from a points cost, it is better than previous, and in a more Daemon-Centric Tzeentch army it might be better than expected. (Especially with the changes to the Changehost.)

I always forget about the split rule for flamers, though the odds are so low that I feel it rarely would pay off in a meaningful way.