Hellstriders and rapturous banner

[Tasman]

OK, this may have been asked, but here goes:

If I have 2 units of hellstriders each of which has a rapturous standard within 6" of each other, do they each get -1 to hit? Also, if I have the Lord on boobsnake within 6" of both of those, does he now get -3 to hit from an enemy that's within 3 inches of him?

[BaldoBeardo]

-1 for the Hellstriders.

The penalty is -1, the test is "within 6 inches of a unit containing..."

There's no "for each" or "this unit", so it's not stackable.

 

It will stack with the Lord's ability though as they're separate abilities!

 

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[Tasman]

On 8/29/2017 at 6:00 PM, BaldoBeardo said:

-1 for the Hellstriders.

The penalty is -1, the test is "within 6 inches of a unit containing..."

There's no "for each" or "this unit", so it's not stackable.

 

It will stack with the Lord's ability though as they're separate abilities!

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

I'm still confused about this The FAQs now say that the wording on the war scroll, [whether the ability in question contains the defining "a unit/model" vs "ANY unit/model".

Under this explanation, the shamans with sky fires should stack, as it says- "

Preternatural Enhancement: If this unit is within 9" of a friendly Tzaangor Shaman at the start of the shooting phase, add 1 to any hit rolls made for their Greatbow’s Arrow of Fate attack " [italics mine].

Now, the hell striders seem to fall into a grey area, as the wording is such that both words are used: "subtract 1 from the hit rolls of enemy models within 6" of a unit that contains any Enrapturing Banners". So which is it? Both of these abilities stack? One, or none? And why? The wording is, as usual, vague enough to cause a headache.

[Squirrelmaster]

The FAQ only states that "any" is synonymous with "one or more", and means an ability doesn't stack. It does not state that a rule must use the word "any" in order to not stack.

Although it's not spelled out in the FAQ, I think we have to assume that these abilities do not stack, because they just become ridiculously over-powered otherwise.

[Tasman]

20 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

The FAQ only states that "any" is synonymous with "one or more", and means an ability doesn't stack. It does not state that a rule must use the word "any" in order to not stack.

Although it's not spelled out in the FAQ, I think we have to assume that these abilities do not stack, because they just become ridiculously over-powered otherwise.

I agree with you. The problem here is the rules lawyers who would bend these because of the obscure wording. Why can't GW jus come right out and say, "Abilities don't stack under any circumstances if they are being applied by the same type units or items."?

[BaldoBeardo]

18 hours ago, Tasman said:

I agree with you. The problem here is the rules lawyers who would bend these because of the obscure wording. Why can't GW jus come right out and say, "Abilities don't stack under any circumstances if they are being applied by the same type units or items."?

Because some abilities do stack, and are intended to. Typically you're looking for wording like "this unit".

The best way of reading is break the ability into two sentences - the test and the effect.

[Frozenbeast]

21 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Because some abilities do stack, and are intended to. Typically you're looking for wording like "this unit".

The best way of reading is break the ability into two sentences - the test and the effect.

I hate to be pedantic like this and I apologize because it seems I am doing it on purpouse (as I opened another post reguarding this) to irritate people but I am not. I don t get when you say "this unit": what do you refer to? to the enemy unit or to the unit with the ability? why would the wording "this unit" be associated to an ability that stack? can you make an example of an ability using the wording you are refering to or link/quote a specific warscroll ability where your wording is used?

Again I am not trying to mock anybody just try to understand better

[Sarkazim]

On 10/25/2017 at 11:10 PM, Frozenbeast said:

I don t get when you say "this unit": what do you refer to? to the enemy unit or to the unit with the ability? why would the wording "this unit" be associated to an ability that stack?

Treat it as a condition that you check for, and that might help you make sense of it.  It's not associated with an ability stacking, but it's an additional qualifier within the ability to state 'Hey, do this and apply it 1x!'  (The FAQ clarified that 'a' and 'any' are intended to be used the same.)
* If an ability says 'Within X" of a unit... ' or 'Within X" of any unit with this ability..." then the condition only needs to be met once for the effect to apply.  The check for the other abilities still happens, but most of us just consider actually doing it a waste, since the unit is already being affected.

So with the Hellstriders/Banner, it gets a little confusing because the word any is in an awkward place, especially for the non-english speakers.  It could be a little clearer, but we break it down and check.  Is the unit within 6" of a unit containing any Banners?  Yes.  Now when we get to the second unit with the banner we check again.  Is the unit within 6" of a unit containing any Banners?  Yes, but since they were already in range of a previous unit, the effect is already on the unit because they were in range of A unit that applied the effect.  It would be nice if it was worded like the other non-stacking abilities, but it isn't so we do the best we can.

* If an ability is missing the 'A' or 'ANY' , then we don't automatically assume that it does stack, just that it could stack.  It still needs to be checked.  Talk to your group, playtest it,  ask the TO, get a ton of feedback generated on it.  When there is enough feedback/confusion on a particular rule, then GW will errata it to fix how it was intended, as was the case with the Bloodsecrator. 

I think as a community we'd like to see more wording like 'in X" of this unit' or 'in X" of the ability' for when they do stack.  The Bloodshield is an example of an ability that does stack, or get resolved in an order.  It's also different since it's not applying something that applies or has an effect once it's resolves, which puts it into a different discussion.

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There still isn't a definitive list of what is, or isn't stack-able.  There are far too many warscrolls.  Most of them are still compendium or aren't popular enough to be addressed.  While I agree that in most cases it should be safer to assume that abilities don't stack until you find out that they do, rather than the other way around.  Another simple way to check is to see if anyone else is running the same combo you thought of.  If they aren't, then there is probably a reason for it as a community this large is pretty good at finding all the broken items.

Hope this helps you out a bit.

[PlasticCraic]

On 27/10/2017 at 3:03 AM, Sarkazim said:

(The FAQ clarified that 'a' and 'any' are intended to be used the same.)
 

Bit of a necro here, but could I ask where in the FAQ it does that please? I can't find it. 

[EMMachine]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

Bit of a necro here, but could I ask where in the FAQ it does that please? I can't find it. 

"a" and "an" are indefinite articles (they are never connected to numbers). The answer for the question "Are you in range of a unit with this rule?" is simply "yes" or "no". If it is yes, the effect happens once. Only in cases where we have "each" or "for each" the question is "how many units/models with this rule are in range?"