Lets chat Soulblight

[Koalaninja]

The vampire Lord has a fantastic unique spell that renders most elite infantry useless and is very mobile. The v lord needs to support one of your units that tackles their big elite threat. You won't regret it. 

[Gotrek]

A daemon prince of tzeentch is 160. Compare that to a vampire.

8 wounds, 4+ save, wizard, flies, 4 attacks at 3/3 rend 1 d3 damage and 3 attacks at 4/3 no rend 2 damage. 

The problem with the vampire is that its a hybrid. Much like hybrids in D&D, it suffers from a lack of focus. A paladin cant fight as well as a fighter and cant heal as well as a cleric. The vampire is the paladin. It cant deal or tank damage like a dedicated melee hero and its more expensive than most other wizards which means its not efficient there either. Sure it can fly or be mounted.  So can the 100 point collegiate arcane wizards and the skink priest with the feather cape. 

 

Honestly the blood line I'm most excited about is the one that removes the need for heroes to get deathless minion. As far as im concerned that just opened up an extra 140 points per unit because i dont need a babysitter for every unit now. 

[Lestatjohnraven]

Some of you just ignore the capability of autohealing of the vampire as I see... 

And as somebody said before, it could be the case the stormcast is undercosted.  Any other examples?

[Lestatjohnraven]

3 hours ago, Gotrek said:

A daemon prince of tzeentch is 160. Compare that to a vampire.

8 wounds, 4+ save, wizard, flies, 4 attacks at 3/3 rend 1 d3 damage and 3 attacks at 4/3 no rend 2 damage. 

But this one doesn't heal a wound every combat phase if kills a miniature? Not to mention 1d6 wounds once per battle on hero phase? 

 

Guys, I think you have to see the big picture... 

[Jamopower]

Chaos sorcerer lord is 160 points...

[Nico]

I was a bit shocked by the Chaos Sorc - but a great ally choice. Also gives off a free reroll saves of 1 buff.

[AverageBoss]

From most of what I have seen the Vampire Lord will be outfought by many 100 point melee heroes, and out spelled by many 100 point casters.

As for hybrid characters, there are very few in the game. The only 2 in the VLs weight class I can think of are the DP mentioned above and the Ogroid. DP is a bit different, but I think the Ogroid is a good comparison. When heavily damaged the Ogroid suffers -1 to cast, but gains +1 to hit. He heals 1 wound automatically every hero phase (which is better than having to kill an enemy to heal). He deals D3 mortal wounds just for charging, and has 2 attacks at 3+/3+/1-/D3, 1 attack at 3+/3+/-2/3, and 4 attacks at 4+/3+/-/1. 8 wounds, 6" move, and a 5+ save. His special spell inflicts D6 mortal wounds, and only takes a 7 to cast.

The only thing the VL has going for it over the Ogroid imo is his unique spell (but only in cases where a debuff is more reasonable than killing), the Chalice, and the ability to fly. Though I find the chalice pretty meh to be honest, because the VL is so fragile, that in my experience, in any situation in which he has suffered his 1st wound, the other 4 are mere seconds away and you will not get a chance to use it, doubly so if you are on the receiving end of a double turn.

Honestly think the VL would be more at home in the 120 range.

As for the Sorcerer Lord, hes a bit over pointed now. But he still has one of the best freebie abilities, and one of the best buff spell, in the whole game. And because of that he is still taken often, because he is a huge force multiplier.

[Gotrek]

7 hours ago, Lestatjohnraven said:

But this one doesn't heal a wound every combat phase if kills a miniature? Not to mention 1d6 wounds once per battle on hero phase? 

 

Guys, I think you have to see the big picture... 

The reason i ignore it is because it rarely comes into play. The vamp is too easy to spike down.  Ive been running multiple vampires in my lists since AoS came out and i can count on one hand the number of times the "kill a dude, heal a wound" thing has saved my vamp. The chalice is a bit better because it means if they dont spike down the vamp i can heal and make them waste 2 more rounds of combat. 

[Jamopower]

But in the end, does it have any effect in the game if the Vampire Lord is 120 or 140 points? Even in a 1000 point army, the 20 points is just 2% from the total. Those points add up yes, but in any case, they rarely get fielded in multiplies.

[TerrorPenguin]

Played with 60 zombies and a corpse cart as allies the other day but just realised I cheated throughout. As they were allies they wouldn't have benefitted from the 6+ save, which I was taking for them. In the end they battleshocked off which is something I've not had to worry about for a while. 

I'm thinking skeletons are a better choice, at least they have some save and can be given mystic shield. 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, TerrorPenguin said:

Played with 60 zombies and a corpse cart as allies the other day but just realised I cheated throughout. As they were allies they wouldn't have benefitted from the 6+ save, which I was taking for them. In the end they battleshocked off which is something I've not had to worry about for a while. 

I'm thinking skeletons are a better choice, at least they have some save and can be given mystic shield. 

Who were you playing against and how did the zombies fair? 
What were the issues you found with them?
Do you think you could have used them better or was it just a case of them underperforming?

Interesting to hear someones experience with them.

[discoking]

Just played this list twice to smash my best mates Bonesplitterz twice in a row. No lost units

Lords of Night

VLoZD - Mistform/re-roll charge sigil

Covern Throne

3x5 Bloodknights

6 Vargiests

6 Fell Bats

[TerrorPenguin]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Who were you playing against and how did the zombies fair? 
What were the issues you found with them?
Do you think you could have used them better or was it just a case of them underperforming?

Interesting to hear someones experience with them.

I was playing against phoenix temple, who are a resilient bunch of ******. There is a lot of -1 to wound auras which also don't help.

Issues I found were that I had to keep my general relatively near the zombies to give them inspiring presence. I forgot to do this and not being soul blight they don't get the save, so one turn a couple of phoenixes took about twenty off, then the rest battleshocked off.

They did their job I think and managed to score objectives for a decent amount of time in their mass regiment. But I think skellies would have hung around for longer.

[Tizianolol]

6 minutes ago, TerrorPenguin said:

I was playing against phoenix temple, who are a resilient bunch of ******. There is a lot of -1 to wound auras which also don't help.

Issues I found were that I had to keep my general relatively near the zombies to give them inspiring presence. I forgot to do this and not being soul blight they don't get the save, so one turn a couple of phoenixes took about twenty off, then the rest battleshocked off.

They did their job I think and managed to score objectives for a decent amount of time in their mass regiment. But I think skellies would have hung around for longer.

That s the main reason I don't like run ally in my soulblight list. If you play big block of zomb you need inspiring presence on them! Or they disappear vs enemy monster or strong model too easy. Our vlozd got a nice command ability for himself( with new faq) so you lose damage on your big unit and you can t hold points really well;)

[Malakree]

@TerrorPenguin @Tizianolol
To be fair he probably invested far more than 320 points in order to get those zombies off the field. So in that regard I would view it as proof of concept. The big consideration then becomes the corpse cart for the extra 80 points, if it was worth it and whether or not it is would a block of 40 skeletons for 280 points just function better. So then the follow up questions are.

Was the corpse cart worth it, and did you run the lodestone or brazier?

How important were the extra 20 wounds. (Skeles would have been 40)

Did the zombies function more as a tar pit or did they manage to get some damage out? (I imagine the big issue for this one is actually getting the models into contact with the enemy, that's a large plus for the Skeleton Warriors since you could give them spears.)

Noticeably if the zombie damage output was lacking, which admittedly could be army dependent, and the corpse cart isn't giving you any casting advantages/disadvantages. Then you probably just want to save the 120 points and grab the skeles instead. Running them with spears allows you to get more in range and as you already noted the save is a big advantage for two reasons.  You do drop to 5+/4+ (with +1 to hit if a death hero is in 18") but you get the extra attacks for a large unit. Importantly crypt shields make them way better at bogging down 0 rend units.

EDIT: As a side note for pure tar bit and stayability grabbing a Wight King with Infernal standard is just going to flat out pace the zombies+Corpse Cart. He is vulnerable to sniping but not much more than the corpse cart. He's also optional to the skeles in a way that the corpse cart isn't so much for the zombies.

[Tizianolol]

@Malakree 

you right, infernal standard helps for sure. 

My intenction is show that maybe we are over rating the hords meta. I mean ok, there Are battleplan where hords help a lot. But if you Are a soulblight player You can destroy them with vargh or bats . We are so fast, we can fly and vlozd with mist for is really a game changing.

so instead of follow the meta I think we got weapons to counter the meta. Instead of follow hords meta we have to focus on our points of strength imo;)

[Malakree]

49 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

My intenction is show that maybe we are over rating the hords meta. I mean ok, there Are battleplan where hords help a lot. But if you Are a soulblight player You can destroy them with vargh or bats . We are so fast, we can fly and vlozd with mist for is really a game changing.

so instead of follow the meta I think we got weapons to counter the meta. Instead of follow hords meta we have to focus on our points of strength imo;)

So what I'd say to that is that adding a single large block unit isn't committing to the horde meta. You add it because it's cheap and large nature acts as an indirect force multiplier which amplifies the already powerful aspects that the rest of your army already possesses. I'll try and explain or lay that out below.

So the big thing which soulblight boasts across the board is high mobility, Blood knights are slow at movement 10" for them. The result of this is that you can apply a lot of pressure to a specific area far more easily than your opponent can, allowing you to hit specific units then pull back, in that regard you use your speed to seize the initiative and take control of the game.

The answer to this for your opponent is to then fan out in such a way that his units can always support each other allowing him to pin you and then counter attack. He can also try to ignore your units and instead force objectives. Both of these strategies attempt to remove one of your strengths so that he can instead abuse the lower wound count and elite nature of your units. Blood Knights for example do D3 damage with their lances on charge, if he can pin them in combat he neuters them quite badly. On the other hand if you can get 2/3 units to charge into an exposed unit, overwhelming it, then you allow yourself the option to do it again the turn after.

The reason I say that a single large cheap unit acts as a force multiplier is because it gives you something around which to pivot the rest of your army and answer your opponents attempts to pick the battlefield. Your single large block can fearlessly walk into the centre of the field to seize an objective or just limit how your opponents army can move. This then isolates his flanks both from each other and from the centre which is currently in a quagmire thus amplifying the speed/flight combination that you have in re-positioning causing your opponent to either expose parts of his army for you to smash or surrender objectives allowing you to seize the game.

Lastly there's the psychological effect. The single large block provides a target for your opponent, it gives them something they can get hold of while your more important units win you the game. The fact there are some battleplans where a block of 40 skeles/60 zombies can hold the objective is just a nice bonus on top of their actual purpose.

For a pure statistical comparison 5 blood knights costs 260 points for 15 wounds with a 4+ save. They regenerate 3 wounds a turn. 40 skeles cost 280 points for 40 wounds with a 6+ save returning d6 wounds a turn and 60 zombies is 320 points with 60 wounds. Take the example above

1 hour ago, TerrorPenguin said:

a couple of phoenixes

That's 240 points a model assuming it doesn't have an anointed on top of it. Plus the turns that it tied down any Phoenix Guard it was engaged in. Those 320 points probably stalled and absorbed far and above that from his opponent, 20 phoneix guard are 320 and 30 are 420. As an additional bonus they were scoring the objective over that duration as well. In terms of impact on the game the one large block of 60 zombies far outperformed an equal block of blood knights in the same situation. You wouldn't want an army of them, but one unit amplifies the rest of your army in a way that one extra unit of blood knights wouldn't.

[Tizianolol]

3 hours ago, discoking said:

Just played this list twice to smash my best mates Bonesplitterz twice in a row. No lost units

Lords of Night

VLoZD - Mistform/re-roll charge sigil

Covern Throne

3x5 Bloodknights

6 Vargiests

6 Fell Bats

How coven throne performed? Is it worth for beguile?:)

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

On 9/7/2017 at 9:41 PM, Gotrek said:

5 wounds, 4+ save, 4 attacks 3/3 rend 1 d3 damage. Mage.  140 points

Lord relictor: 5 wounds, 3+ save, 4 attacks 3/3 rend 1  1 damage, priest (heal d3 wounds or d3 mortal wounds & -1 hit). 80 points.  Relictor > vampire all day, every day.

Branchwraith: 5 wounds, 5+ save, -1 to hit.  Wizard. Can heal d3 wounds, teleport. 80 points 

I can pull examples out all day of cheaper or similarly priced units that are better/more durable than a vamp in either of the roles it tries to fill.

 

Basically, i want them to be WORTH 140 points. Is a 3+ save too much to ask? Or an extra wound? 

Vampire Lord has a 10" move that ignores scenery (can become 12" with the other bloodline), heals a wound per combat where he slays a model, and can heal D6 wounds once per game.  

You're whining and conveniently leaving out the ability to ignore scenery and other models during a movement/charge for a melee hero with damage potential of 4-12 in the combat phase...

EDIT: Don't forget a decent command ability

[Gotrek]

1 hour ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Vampire Lord has a 10" move that ignores scenery (can become 12" with the other bloodline), heals a wound per combat where he slays a model, and can heal D6 wounds once per game.  

You're whining and conveniently leaving out the ability to ignore scenery and other models during a movement/charge for a melee hero with damage potential of 4-12 in the combat phase...

EDIT: Don't forget a decent command ability

I will give you the command ability is good. The other stuff, not so much.  Ive addressed it already

[TerrorPenguin]

9 hours ago, Malakree said:

That's 240 points a model assuming it doesn't have an anointed on top of it. Plus the turns that it tied down any Phoenix Guard it was engaged in. Those 320 points probably stalled and absorbed far and above that from his opponent, 20 phoneix guard are 320 and 30 are 420. As an additional bonus they were scoring the objective over that duration as well. In terms of impact on the game the one large block of 60 zombies far outperformed an equal block of blood knights in the same situation. You wouldn't want an army of them, but one unit amplifies the rest of your army in a way that one extra unit of blood knights wouldn't.

Oh the loss of the game was my fault entirely and the zombies did ok for their points, but for the role I wanted them in (holding objectives) I think skeletons would've been better. 40 skeletons plus Wight king with standard gives them the 6+ save again. The only thing is babysitting them with the general for inspiring presence, although I suppose he can inspire them move away

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

7 hours ago, Gotrek said:

I will give you the command ability is good. The other stuff, not so much.  Ive addressed it already

Right, except that 1v1, a Vampire Lord would defeat a Relictor or the Branchwych.  Personal preference to which you prefer, but I think you're just complaining over something that is fairly costed.

[discoking]

12 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

How coven throne performed? Is it worth for beguile?:)

Worth it all day long,beguile is amazing.

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, TerrorPenguin said:

Oh the loss of the game was my fault entirely and the zombies did ok for their points, but for the role I wanted them in (holding objectives) I think skeletons would've been better. 40 skeletons plus Wight king with standard gives them the 6+ save again. The only thing is babysitting them with the general for inspiring presence, although I suppose he can inspire them move away

Aye that's what I theorised above. It's good to get some actual "on the ground" experience and opinions. 

The fact the standard affects all death is also a really huge perk.

[bonzai]

My wife is starting a Nighthaunt army, so with the GHB17 I got her a Coven Throne and am trying to get her the cool mini or not female vampire on horse when it gets restocked. This gives her 400 points of soulblight allies.

https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/cmon-miniature-limited-edition/mounted-female-vampire-1.html

This made me realize that with that investment it was a gateway into a soulblight army, which I have a feeling she would like better than the Nighthaunts at the moment.

The initial list would be;

coven throne

vampire lord on nightmare

10 blood knights

6 vargheist

6 vargheist

Ally: Neferata

Total: 2,000

It covers all the cool vampire chicks for her (though I could sculpt ****** on the vargheist), and would be a Death Star style build with the Blood Knights. It's also really fast which is great, as her primary army is swifthawk agents so she is used to mobility. She liked the look of spirit hosts and banshees and wanted a melee army to change things up. I have a feeling she would like how Soulblight plays better.

Feed back is appreciated. Also, anyone know if there are female alternatives to blood knights? If I can pull off an all female army for her she would love it!