Is Karl Franz the Celestant Prime?

[Guest]

On 29/08/2017 at 5:08 PM, DarkWingDuck said:

If I recall correctly, not even the Celestant Prime knows who he once was.

But my favorite fan theory is he's Giles Le Breton (aka the Green Knight). He was a Great King and tireless Protector of his people. Those are the qualities that the Celestant Prime's exhibited in his former life. Also, he's immortal ... and it's not clear what happened to him during the End Times. 

I like seeing links to The World that Was, so I'm probably biased and it's wishful thinking.

Now I really want to see a version of the Celestant Prime converted and painted up as the Green Knight!

[VBS]

Well, in the mortal realms basically anything can happen because "magic, gods and dragons the size of a continent in space" or whatever. And the setting is not really fleshout yet. 

So if GW decides the CP is Karl Franz, they can easily come up with whatever story that will make sense from a Mortal Realms/AoS perspective (because they do whatever they want with their own product to make it cannon).

Yeah, not much to discuss whether it is possible or not, because it is possible. I do however think they will keep the CP to be one of those "mysterious characters" whose identity will be a unknown to instigate speculation (like the Green Knight pre-ET or the 2 lost Primarchs in 40k). Simply coz fantasy fluff nerds like us like that  

[Darth Alec]

4 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

There's no reason Sigmar couldn't have had Karl Franz's soul to hand when he forged the Celestant Prime. Either Karl Franz's soul or part of it could have hung around in his mortal body after the wind of Azyr with Sigmar inside of it crashed into it, staying with Sigmar until he decided to use it as a dry run for forging his very first Stormcast; or if Karl Franz had really died his soul would have been bound for Morr's realm, by then along with most of the other WFB death gods' underworlds subsumed by Nagash. I'm surethat at some point during the Age of Myth or Chaos Sigmar could have easily bartered or tricked Karl Franz's soul from Nagash or failing that, stolen it without his knowledge or taken it by force.

Anything's possible when you're writing in broad strokes about imaginary gods on a vaguely defined timeline with even vaguer powers!

 

There's no textual evidence that Franz' soul remained with Sigmar. The Sigmar of the End Times was at best unaware of the true extent of his powers. And until he had Ghal Maraz, was not even Sigmar at 100%. There's no reason for it to have remained with him. In fact, the Sigmar of the Mortal Realms sees no reason to keep the souls of Mortals for any other purpose than the Stormcast. Everyone else who dies goes to Nagash. We can reasonably assume that this attitude would extend back prior to the Eternals, and so Sigmar would release any soul he had because there was no purpose to keeping it. In fact, keeping the souls subverts the natural order of the Realms, annoying Nagash to no end (which was a major concern until the Betrayal).

 

Quote

Archaon and all the named Death characters would like a word.  

 

There's a bit of poor storytelling in how Gutrot Spume, the GLottkin, Scylla Anfingrim and all the minor chaos characters survived. They should have been made generic, or not been brought over at all. Like Vlad and Isabella. However, there's also a major mechanic that allows these characters to be brought over. Chaos and Death naturally bind people's souls. They all belong to Chaos/Nagash already. Except Archaon, who is probably just too badass to die.

 

We also know each of the "minor" survivors, including the Glottkin and the Mortarchs don't remember TWT. Even Nagash doesn't think about Mannfred as the guy who cost him the Old World.

 

3 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I'm not sure Sigmar would be holding on to a Soul for a process he didn't know would exist in a plane of existence he didn't know existed to fight a war he didn't know was going to happen. I'd also venture he wouldn't have the ability to steal souls from Nagash at that point as he hadn't developed all the clobber needed for Reforging.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

There's also this.

 

1 hour ago, DarkWingDuck said:

 

Just a nit: If I recall correctly, after the destruction of "The World that Was" (TWTW), Sigmar floated about hanging on to the remains for a bit, and then discovered the Mortal Realms. The Realms were already populated and had existed for 1,000's of years. So unless Sigmar floated for 1,000's of years, the timelines overlap for 1,000's of years.

This leads to my other fan theory.

What significant event happened 1,000's of years before the destruction of the TWTW?

6,000 years prior, TWTW was beset by daemons (sound familiar?). The High Elf mages, lead by Caledor Dragontamer, created the Great Vortex and channeled the 8 winds of magic into another place/dimension (or maybe ... 8 dimensions?). This drained the world of most magic, which the daemons used to sustain themselves, thus saving TWTW.

My theory is that the Great Vortex led to/created the Mortal Realms and that Caledor and the High Elves inadvertently created them.

The High Elves (and Slaan and other forces of Order) then spent the next 6,000 years keeping Chaos from the Vortex. Hence why it was untouched by Chaos until Sigmar arrived.

Similarities between TWTW and the Mortal Realms are due to the fact that the first 6,000 years of it's existence, each of the Winds of Magic blew across TWTW, picking up psychic impressions, before finally arriving and "forming/adding onto" the Mortal Realms.

It doesn't change anything for AoS, but I like that in this theory, The Mortal Realms (and their idyllic first age) are a result of the heroics, and dogged resistance against Chaos, of the people(s) of TWTW. Thus giving their "lives" more meaning in the overall story line.

 

I'll quote you this; Page 1, line 1, every single campaign book, battletome and novel, "From the maelstrom of a sundered world, the Eight Realms were born." The Mortal Realms were born when the WTW went under. Sigmar no doubt floated around for countless aeons, it's one of those mythical elements, where time doesn't mean a whole lot. Hence why when he was awakened, the realms were already populated and old. Much simpler both for us and GW to write.

 

It's a lovely theory, but it doesn't match up. For one, where did the winds go? The Great Vortex was cut off. At the end of Khaine, several years before the end of the world, the Vortex is unbound. Were the Mortal Realms self sufficient at this point? Secondly, we saw the inside of the vortex. Teclis, and Morathi were there. Guess what they found on the other side? Slaanesh' giant crab arm.

 

"psychic impressions" is 40k speak. Fantasy hasn't had that stuff for ages. The chaos gods are real, malignant and their own entities independant of other forms of life. They are not psychic reflections of emotions. The reason the mortal realms have some similar creatures to TWT is because magic. There is no deeper explanation. The Sylvaneth didn't even make it over! Alarielle had to replant them before they sprung into existance.

 

 

Ultimately, I'm not saying that any of these theories are impossible. GW can always retcon it. I'm just saying that it's far more likely that GW wants to keep AoS, AoS. Any references to the Old World are vague whispers meant for Longbeards. Arkhan thinking about himself as a gambler is an intreguing tidbit for new players and a great callback for old ones, but nothing more. The Celestant Prime being a major character from the Old World means that they can never explore him. Exploring his character would take you out of AoS and into a game and setting that isn't AoS.

 

And before anyone says it, this doesn't apply to the other "survivors", because they have history between TWT and modern AoS. Nagash remembers being thawed out and has X thousands of years as as character. We don't need his Old World history to understand him, because there are plenty of AoS-stories to tell about him. The god's characters in AoS and in TWT don't rely on each other. The Prime, if Franz/Settra/Bretonnia King guy, would have nothing between TWT and reforging.

[DarkWingDuck]

 

1 hour ago, Darth Alec said:

I'll quote you this; Page 1, line 1, every single campaign book, battletome and novel, "From the maelstrom of a sundered world, the Eight Realms were born." The Mortal Realms were born when the WTW went under. Sigmar no doubt floated around for countless aeons, it's one of those mythical elements, where time doesn't mean a whole lot. Hence why when he was awakened, the realms were already populated and old. Much simpler both for us and GW to write.

I don't have any books on me, but I thought somewhere it said Sigmar floated for centuries. But as you pointed out, time might have been passing for him differently, so maybe it was millennium in the Mortal Realms.

That particular passage is poetic, but I don't think it necessarily invalidates my theory. In fact, if you assume TWTW protected the nascent Mortal Realms (for 6,000 years), then it's destruction can be viewed as the birth of the Mortal Realms. Picture a bubble (TWTW) that has 8 other bubbles in it (the Mortal Realms). Archeon popped the outer bubble, causing the 8 other bubbles suddenly becoming visible. It's the difference between conception and birth.

1 hour ago, Darth Alec said:

It's a lovely theory, but it doesn't match up. For one, where did the winds go? The Great Vortex was cut off. At the end of Khaine, several years before the end of the world, the Vortex is unbound. Were the Mortal Realms self sufficient at this point? Secondly, we saw the inside of the vortex. Teclis, and Morathi were there. Guess what they found on the other side? Slaanesh' giant crab arm.

The winds went to the incarnates during the End Times.  But yes, the Mortal Realms would have been self sufficient by the End Times, they no longer needed to slurp up their specific wind to exist.

As far as Slaanesh's giant crab arm goes, yeah that's a discrepancy in my theory. But if you assume Teclis was breaking the connections to the Realms in order to free each wind; maybe after he freed the last one he was left with a whole in reality that Slaanesh tried to use to climb through.

The problem I have with the Vortex led back to the Realms of Chaos Theory is that you can't drain a basin back into the same basin. And that's what the Vortex was, a drain of the winds of magic that poured in from the Realms of Chaos into TWTW (and out through the Vortex).

1 hour ago, Darth Alec said:

"psychic impressions" is 40k speak. Fantasy hasn't had that stuff for ages. The chaos gods are real, malignant and their own entities independant of other forms of life. They are not psychic reflections of emotions. The reason the mortal realms have some similar creatures to TWT is because magic. There is no deeper explanation. The Sylvaneth didn't even make it over! Alarielle had to replant them before they sprung into existance.

I'm not sure you can be sure of that argument. It's not even 100% clear if the AoS/TWTW universes are different than the 40k one. Every-so-often GW likes to hint they might be the same. The Skaven communicating with what appeared to be Eldar in the Thanquol End Times book and

Spoiler

more recently the description of the rotting Universe seen by Gardus at the end of Plague Garden could be viewed as the 40k Universe.

 

1 hour ago, Darth Alec said:

Ultimately, I'm not saying that any of these theories are impossible. GW can always retcon it. I'm just saying that it's far more likely that GW wants to keep AoS, AoS. Any references to the Old World are vague whispers meant for Longbeards. Arkhan thinking about himself as a gambler is an intreguing tidbit for new players and a great callback for old ones, but nothing more. The Celestant Prime being a major character from the Old World means that they can never explore him. Exploring his character would take you out of AoS and into a game and setting that isn't AoS.

But that's kinda the crux of the matter. I don't see it as a different setting. I'm saying it's the same setting, just further down the road. Some character's are still kicking around ... some have died ... some are still/finally dying

Spoiler

(like the Ice Queen of Kislev)

... some we just don't know. By tying some bits to the Old World, I see it as strengthening the story being told in AoS by giving it even more depth/epic scope (in a historic sense), as long as it doesn't become so common that it overshadows the story being told in AoS (or AoS's own timeline).

[SuperHappyTime]

Elf souls hang around, why wouldn't human souls?

[Davariel]

Sometimes I wonder if GW has a list somewhere with answers to all the big mysteries of their settings... or if they're just making it up as they go and don't have a clue either

[Double Misfire]

On 29/08/2017 at 5:08 PM, DarkWingDuck said:

But my favorite fan theory is he's Giles Le Breton (aka the Green Knight). He was a Great King and tireless Protector of his people. Those are the qualities that the Celestant Prime's exhibited in his former life. Also, he's immortal ... and it's not clear what happened to him during the End Times. 

That's silly, he's a Bretonnian - it would be like Cypher being revealed to have been Leman Russ all along (which would actually be pretty cool but still).

Also I am pretty sure that Giles is the Sacred Protector and not the Celestant Prime.