DinoTitanedition Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 Knowing that the Stormcast are forged of great heroes and seeing him wield Ghal Maraz and being the first of his kind....I came to question myself, might the Celestant Prime have formerly been Karl Franz? Who has some insight on the Stormcats history/fluff and might shed a little light on this? Cheers Dino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 He certainly can, but as far as I know there are no strong evidences of CP's origins of any kind, so we can only guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 Yeah, I've been sort of hoping that would be the case, but I think all SCEs are ppl from the Mortal Realm. Karl is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 23 minutes ago, Sleboda said: Karl is dead. Isn't that also the premise of their first forging? That Sigmar scooped up their souls to forge them into Stormcast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoodooChileIRL Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 Didn't Karl Franz end up dying in The End Times and was reborn as Sigmar himself? If so, if Karl Franz is anywhere he is a facet of Sigmar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester1487 Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 I was always under the impression that Karl Franz became sigmar. While it's possible the prime is him I don't think it's likely. It took a good while for sigmar to come up with the idea of stormcast, and this was after the fall of the age of myth in the mortal realms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkWingDuck Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 If I recall correctly, not even the Celestant Prime knows who he once was. But my favorite fan theory is he's Giles Le Breton (aka the Green Knight). He was a Great King and tireless Protector of his people. Those are the qualities that the Celestant Prime's exhibited in his former life. Also, he's immortal ... and it's not clear what happened to him during the End Times. I like seeing links to The World that Was, so I'm probably biased and it's wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillagoreFaceslasha Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 59 minutes ago, Kramer said: Isn't that also the premise of their first forging? That Sigmar scooped up their souls to forge them into Stormcast? Actually, no. he scooped the whole deal, then kills them in the first forging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester1487 Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 26 minutes ago, DarkWingDuck said: If I recall correctly, not even the Celestant Prime knows who he once was. But my favorite fan theory is he's Giles Le Breton (aka the Green Knight). He was a Great King and tireless Protector of his people. Those are the qualities that the Celestant Prime's exhibited in his former life. Also, he's immortal ... and it's not clear what happened to him during the End Times. I like seeing links to The World that Was, so I'm probably biased and it's wishful thinking. I would love to see this be the reality. Then a whole new line of mortal bretonnian horsemen led by him. His end was not the legendary one it should have been on the world that was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 22 minutes ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said: Actually, no. he scooped the whole deal, then kills them in the first forging. Net effect.... a dead hero . Haha but good to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 Karl Franz died a some point during the siege of Altdorf during the End Times and Sigmar took his place. This was before Sigmar found the Mortal Realms and thousands of years before he started creating Stormcast. It's unlikely Karl Franz is the Celestant Prime unless Sigmar had some way of storing his essence to enact a plan he would come up with several thousand years in the future. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb Daark Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 7 hours ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said: Actually, no. he scooped the whole deal, then kills them in the first forging. indeed. In essence look at the stormcast as Sigmar Cybermen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoTitanedition Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 @Ollie Grimwood Isn`t one of the Stormcat chambers made entirely of nobles from thousands of years ago as well? The dark blueish guys. How did Karl Franz become Sigmar? I`m not really familiar with the End Times stuff, I left Warhammer long before that happened and returned with AoS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragobeth Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 IIRC There is a Celestant called Imperius or something like that (there is a small text about him on the Stormcast Battletome 2.0)He was the first Celestant of the Extremis Chamber. I always thought that Karl is that Cellestant. The name and the position of the character just say it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obaobaboss Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 56 minutes ago, DinoTitanedition said: How did Karl Franz become Sigmar? I`m not really familiar with the End Times stuff, I left Warhammer long before that happened and returned with AoS. If i recall it correctly Teclis has freed the winds of magic and Sigmar was prisoned (good old tzeentch did it) in the wind of heaven (azyr). At this point Karl Franz died and Sigmar used his body to fight against chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoodooChileIRL Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 51 minutes ago, DinoTitanedition said: @Ollie Grimwood Isn`t one of the Stormcat chambers made entirely of nobles from thousands of years ago as well? The dark blueish guys. How did Karl Franz become Sigmar? I`m not really familiar with the End Times stuff, I left Warhammer long before that happened and returned with AoS. Can't remember the exact details but Karl Franz was the Incarnate of Azyr (Heaven) during the End Times (Not all Incarnates became gods of the Mortal Realms but most did). He was struck down in battle (I think against Glotkin or Archaon, not sure) and as he was dying he called out to Sigmar. At that point the Twin-tailed comet which had heralded the End Times crashed down onto Karl Franz and from out of the crater climbed Sigmar. I'm not sure if he was reborn from Karl Franz or was in the comet the entire time but it makes sense I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoTitanedition Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 Sounds like technically Karl Franz' soul is available if Sigmar can reach out for it, back in time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AthlorianStoners Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 i always wanted him to be Settra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolden Spoons Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I can't remember where I saw or heard it, but the rumour I saw was the Celestant Prime is Valten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Misfire Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Dragobeth said: IIRC There is a Celestant called Imperius or something like that (there is a small text about him on the Stormcast Battletome 2.0)He was the first Celestant of the Extremis Chamber. I always thought that Karl is that Cellestant. The name and the position of the character just say it to me. I'm reading Extremis battleone where Imperius was first introduced right now. "The mortal Imperio was the last Emperor of Hydonia, a continent-wide Empire in Ghur" - nope! 50 minutes ago, AthlorianStoners said: i always wanted him to be Settra I always wanted him to be Lumpin Croop. While we're on the topic of Karl Franz, Valten, the Celestant Prime et all, here's a very silly essay I wrote theorising about them when I had a lot more free time: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Alec Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Not this again. Karl Franz died at Altdorf. Quote Glottkin, page 125 Lightning flashed Overhead as Otto raised his stolen runefang and swung it down with a road of triumph. A thunderclap boomed high above as Karl Franz raised his good arm to deflect the blow. The bladed severed it without slowing and plunged deep into the Emperor's heart. [...] [...] Above the Glottkin, the skies ripped open to reveal a celestial otherowlrd. A twin-tailed sphere of pure force slammed out from the hole in the sky. It blasted into Karl Franz' corpse, hurling the nearby Glotts through the air with the power of its collision. [...] Emphasise mine. Unless Sigmar hung around to Karl Franz' soul for thousands of years, there's no way it's him. This happened before Sigmar became a fully fledged god (when he grabbed his hammer). This happened before the Mortal Realms were a thing. This happened before the pantheon of Sigmar. This happened before the chaos invasion, the battle of the burning skies, the retreat to azyr. This all happened before the Stormcast were even a twinkling in his lightning-wreathed eyes. It would be poor storytelling for it to be Karl Franz. It would be even worse from an AoS metanarrative, as the Prime becomes a character that new fans of AoS have literally no connections to. I'd honestly be dissapointed if it were him. I get that it's cool, in a sense. But it's not Franz. A much better candidate would be the King of the Lantean Empire. Or some other king who we will no doubt get some backstory on one day. Chances are GW don't even know who he is beyond who he's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith01 Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Big Nope. Love Darth Alec's reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Misfire Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 9 minutes ago, Darth Alec said: Not this again. Karl Franz died at Altdorf. Emphasise mine. Unless Sigmar hung around to Karl Franz' soul for thousands of years, there's no way it's him. This happened before Sigmar became a fully fledged god (when he grabbed his hammer). This happened before the Mortal Realms were a thing. This happened before the pantheon of Sigmar. This happened before the chaos invasion, the battle of the burning skies, the retreat to azyr. This all happened before the Stormcast were even a twinkling in his lightning-wreathed eyes. There's no reason Sigmar couldn't have had Karl Franz's soul to hand when he forged the Celestant Prime. Either Karl Franz's soul or part of it could have hung around in his mortal body after the wind of Azyr with Sigmar inside of it crashed into it, staying with Sigmar until he decided to use it as a dry run for forging his very first Stormcast; or if Karl Franz had really died his soul would have been bound for Morr's realm, by then along with most of the other WFB death gods' underworlds subsumed by Nagash. I'm surethat at some point during the Age of Myth or Chaos Sigmar could have easily bartered or tricked Karl Franz's soul from Nagash or failing that, stolen it without his knowledge or taken it by force. Anything's possible when you're writing in broad strokes about imaginary gods on a vaguely defined timeline with even vaguer powers! Quote It would be poor storytelling for it to be Karl Franz. It would be even worse from an AoS metanarrative, as the Prime becomes a character that new fans of AoS have literally no connections to. I'd honestly be dissapointed if it were him. I get that it's cool, in a sense. But it's not Franz. Archaon and all the named Death characters would like a word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I'm not sure Sigmar would be holding on to a Soul for a process he didn't know would exist in a plane of existence he didn't know existed to fight a war he didn't know was going to happen. I'd also venture he wouldn't have the ability to steal souls from Nagash at that point as he hadn't developed all the clobber needed for Reforging. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkWingDuck Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Darth Alec said: [...] Unless Sigmar hung around to Karl Franz' soul for thousands of years, there's no way it's him. This happened before Sigmar became a fully fledged god (when he grabbed his hammer). This happened before the Mortal Realms were a thing. [...] Just a nit: If I recall correctly, after the destruction of "The World that Was" (TWTW), Sigmar floated about hanging on to the remains for a bit, and then discovered the Mortal Realms. The Realms were already populated and had existed for 1,000's of years. So unless Sigmar floated for 1,000's of years, the timelines overlap for 1,000's of years. This leads to my other fan theory. What significant event happened 1,000's of years before the destruction of the TWTW? 6,000 years prior, TWTW was beset by daemons (sound familiar?). The High Elf mages, lead by Caledor Dragontamer, created the Great Vortex and channeled the 8 winds of magic into another place/dimension (or maybe ... 8 dimensions?). This drained the world of most magic, which the daemons used to sustain themselves, thus saving TWTW. My theory is that the Great Vortex led to/created the Mortal Realms and that Caledor and the High Elves inadvertently created them. The High Elves (and Slaan and other forces of Order) then spent the next 6,000 years keeping Chaos from the Vortex. Hence why it was untouched by Chaos until Sigmar arrived. Similarities between TWTW and the Mortal Realms are due to the fact that the first 6,000 years of it's existence, each of the Winds of Magic blew across TWTW, picking up psychic impressions, before finally arriving and "forming/adding onto" the Mortal Realms. It doesn't change anything for AoS, but I like that in this theory, The Mortal Realms (and their idyllic first age) are a result of the heroics, and dogged resistance against Chaos, of the people(s) of TWTW. Thus giving their "lives" more meaning in the overall story line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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