Can Thunderscorn take Chaos Artifacts?

[Aeon]

Previously you could mix and match specific and grand alliance allegiance abilities (ie Battleline if the army is Thunderscorn allegiance, but can take Chaos Artifacts.)

The FAQ entry looks to be removed and the GHB2017 seems clear that you can't.

Can someone please tell me if I'm mistaken? The way I read it, if I take a Thunderscorn allegiance, I don't get the Chaos Allegiance abilities.

[awcamawn]

I believe the important distinction is that your army can be 'X' allegiance when you build your list and then you choose your allegiance abilities at the start of the battle. It is indeed confusing, but "Allegiance" and "Allegiance Abilities" are two different things, and the distinction is very important! Not terrifically worded by GW, similar to how "Command Ability" and "Command Trait" can be easily confused based on name.

4 hours ago, Knight_Death said:

Nowhere in the rules or generals handbook does it say that you can pick an allegiance when building your army and then changing the allegiance when a game starts.

 

On page 74 of the generals handbook 2017 it says under "Picking Your Army" - first step is to choose an allegiance. You then pick units for your army, using the points table on the page opposite, i.e battleline leaders etc.

For example, my army is Nighthaunts, and i therefore choose Spirit Hosts as battleline, and fill the rest of the points with other Nighthaunt units.

When I start a game I cannot say, "well all my units have the Death keyword so I can pick the Death allegiance", the moment i do that, my spirit hosts are no longer battleline and my army is now illegal.

"You can choose to take either the allegiance abilities for the allegiance your army belongs to, or the allegiance abilities for the Grand Alliance your army belongs to."

-Page 1, paragraph 4 of the official GW FAQ for the General's Hanbook [EDIT: The exact same text appears in the 2017 GHB! - page 77, final paragraph]

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/Warhammer_aos_generals_handbook_en.pdf

So the allegiance of your army determines things like battleline-if units such as Spirit Hosts (or Dragon Ogors) but is independent of your choice of allegiance abilities. So your Nighthaunt allegiance army could take the Death allegiance abilities instead if you so choose, and more importantly Thunderscorn allegiance armies can take Dragon Ogor battleline without forsaking allegiance abilities completely (as their are no Thunderscorn allegiance abilities). Same goes for factions like Phoenix Temple, they can use Phoenix Guard as battleline and retain access to Grand Alliance: Order allegiance abilities.

PS - The FAQ I linked was for the first General's Handbook. After some searching I found the same text has been added to the new 2017 edition. See the final paragraph on page 77 of GHB 2017 under the heading 'Army Roster.' It explicitly states that armies can choose the allegiance abilities for their specific faction or those for their wider Grand Alliance, always!

[BaldoBeardo]

Previously you could mix and match specific and grand alliance allegiance abilities (ie Battleline if the army is Thunderscorn allegiance, but can take Chaos Artifacts.)
The FAQ entry looks to be removed and the GHB2017 seems clear that you can't.
Can someone please tell me if I'm mistaken? The way I read it, if I take a Thunderscorn allegiance, I don't get the Chaos Allegiance abilities.

Page 116, second paragraph. If you qualify for more than 1 allegiance, you pick which you use.

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[BaldoBeardo]

Ooh, ******. Just realised what you meant. For example, Grave Guard are BL if you have DEATHRATTLE allegiance. If you can now only pick one, then you can't take DEATH artefacts because you have chosen DEATHRATTLE.
Erk. Um, anyone?

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[BaldoBeardo]

Okay, super derp.
Battleline & allies are determined by *having* allegiance X (check wording on profiles - "has", not "is").
When you get to choosing abilities, your army has two allegiances - grand alliance and X.
You can pick which allegiance you use for abilities and artefacts.

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[Aeon]

Thanks for that, makes sense although confusing until you realise the difference between 'has' and 'is'

[Aeon]

I just reread and I dont think you can. If you choose the Chaos Allegiance, Thunderscorn aren't Battleline, if you choose Thunderscorn, you don't get access to the Chaos traits/artefacts

[BaldoBeardo]

No, remember; battleline if you *have* thunderstorm allegiance, e.g. every unit in your army either has thunderscorn keyword or follows the ally rules for a thunderscorn army.

When you get to picking abilities / artefacts, if your army *has* thunderscorn allegiance then you also by definition have chaos allegiance.

So you can pick which set of abilities etc. you use.

In effect, the choice of allegiance you use for army construction and the allegiance you use for abilities are separate.

[awcamawn]

Good question, one that had me confused as well. From GW's official General's Handbook Faq:

"Page 106 - Pitched Battles, Picking Your Army

Change the last paragraph to read: ‘Once you have picked your army, record the details of it on a piece of paper (your army roster). The roster must include the units in your army, details of the upgrades they have, the army’s allegiance, and must say which model in the army will be the army general. If your army includes any units that are given keywords when they are set up, such as units with a Mark of Chaos, then these must be chosen and written down when the unit is added to the roster. You must record the allegiance abilities for your army when the battle begins, before setting up your first unit. You can choose to take either the allegiance abilities for the allegiance your army belongs to, or the allegiance abilities for the Grand Alliance your army belongs to."

So you pick and build your list (on the same page of the faq it actually says "restrictions are determined when you pick your army" in regards to allegiance restrictions and summoning), set the army's allegiance as Thunderscorn, and indicate on your roster all your units, battleline, and general. Then, when the battle begins you select your allegiance abilities from any that you qualify for. So factions with no allegiance abilities don't get punished horribly for wanting allegiance-specific battleline, and a full Thunderscorn army would look pretty sweet!

[Knight_Death]

Im sorry BaldoBeardo, but you are incorrect...( i believe )

Nowhere in the rules or generals handbook does it say that you can pick an allegiance when building your army and then changing the allegiance when a game starts.

 

On page 74 of the generals handbook 2017 it says under "Picking Your Army" - first step is to choose an allegiance. You then pick units for your army, using the points table on the page opposite, i.e battleline leaders etc.

For example, my army is Nighthaunts, and i therefore choose Spirit Hosts as battleline, and fill the rest of the points with other Nighthaunt units.

When I start a game I cannot say, "well all my units have the Death keyword so I can pick the Death allegiance", the moment i do that, my spirit hosts are no longer battleline and my army is now illegal.

I guess the only time you can do this is if you have allegiance battleline units that are also grand alliance battleline. i.e Stormcast Liberators.

For this example lets say i do the following, 4 units of 10 liberators, 2 units of 5 decimators, and 2 lords on dragoths, now this "list" is both Order and Stormcast Eternals and therefore can have either Order or Stormcast Celestials Allegiance, but in matched play you are suppose to write down what allegiance you are using along with the command trait and artefacts you have chosen.

[Knight_Death]

Or maybe im wrong !

This game has so many confusing elements !!