Lets Chat: Darkling Covens

[Twitch of Izalith]

Well I thought that at first but when you realise SbM heals D3 wounds EVERY combat phase that a model is slain within 12" it starts to look pretty good - that 2 -6 wounds per turn is one of the best healing mechanics in the game.

Unfortunately the pathetic 5+ save means she is kinda easy to kill in one round of combat anyway.

I need to play more games with both traits to really work out which is best.

[Kyriakin]

I am still painting (i.e. not playing yet), but I am looking at Artifacts now. Of course, they are a bit "meh" compared to the Command Traits.

I think it's between the basic 6+ t-shirt save, or the one-use item that limits incoming/outgoing attacks to 3".

The latter would really help the SoBD for a turn when you are really worried about her being blasted from the table by a massive missile attack. Outward limitations don't really matter, as she'll probably just Mystic Shield a nearby Executioner unit or, failing that, herself. I don't think I'll ever use her unique spell, lol.

Anklet for the Word of Pain Sorceress.

Anyway, I will probably build towards this:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Witch Rod
- Trait: Impossibly Swift 
- Artefact: Shadowshroud Ring 
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Anklet of Epiphany 
20 x Black Guard (320)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Executioners (180)
10 x Executioners (180)
10 x Bleakswords (100)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
War Hydra (200)
Thrall Warhost (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121

However, I may drop the Battalion (and therefore Anklet of Epiphany) for another unit of 10 Executioners.

The Hydra can be made more "Darkling Coven" by painting it dark grey-to-black, with some purple where possible. However, I will need new dragon heads for it, as the current ones look like they are either stoned (closed mouth) or retarded (open mouth).

I guess the Cold Ones could also be dark grey-to-black, and would fit in pretty well. As I am not just transferring an old army across from WHFB, I can avoid that greenish Order Serpentis look ruining the overall uniformity.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

Hello.  Torn between two setups here - with both focusing on Blackguard > Executioners because of effective range and rerolls + rending.

List 1 focuses on mobility and double Black Dragon (Order Serpentis Ally):

Allegiance: Darkling Covens
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Darkling Sword
- Trait: Impossibly Swift 
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos 
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Shadowshroud Ring 
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Lance of Spite & Tyrant Shield
- Allies
10 x Bleakswords (100)
10 x Bleakswords (100)
30 x Darkshards (300)
10 x Executioners (180)
30 x Black Guard (430)
Thrall Warhost (180)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 320 / 400
Wounds: 123

This lets you decide on first turn, or to allow the enemy to go, with a 2-drop list.   The Darkshards can Run + shoot with the Decanter 1st turn to get some shots into the squishies, moving the sorceress up (protected) so that she's positioned for Word of Pain next turn, popping Shadowshroud Ring for sniping protection, and your Executioners/Blackguard positioned and ready for your Battalion bonus actions.  Ideally, I'd want to go 2nd, to hinge on the potential double turn, and denying them the chance to get a double turn.  The benefit of this list is having 2 Black Dragons that are mobile Behemoths that have anti-horde shooting attacks that deal mortal wounds, and are great for flying in and cutting through the chaff, or biting down a backline hero.

List 2 focuses on more foot troops and using Hydra as a durable ally for objectives/flank support as needed, and a Balewind Vortex:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Darkling Sword
- Trait: Impossibly Swift 
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos 
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Shadowshroud Ring 
10 x Bleakswords (100)
10 x Bleakswords (100)
30 x Darkshards (300)
30 x Executioners (480)
10 x Black Guard (160)
War Hydra (200)
Thrall Warhost (180)
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121

This lets you place your Sorceress on the Balewind, and opens up a long-range to debuff an enemy unit with -1 to hit, use of Decanter of Egos for a 1st turn run + shooting of the Darkshards, and your Bleakswords up the field as well.  Focus is on the Executioners and Darkshards here.

I'm leaning more towards list 1 for a few reasons:
- 2 dragons are mobile, and the rerollable save on the Dreadlord on Black Dragon is very nice with Mystic Shield.
- Blackguards with reroll 1's to hit/wound (Command Ability) has a higher avg output than Executioners, mostly due to the 2" vs 1" reach
 

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Kyriakin Have a look at Decanter of Egos for your artefact. Its a good way to get your darkshards in range if you get first turn - and extra movement for anything else in fact. You can also organise a 3" nudge in the Hero Phase by summoning a Balewind right behind stuff... I'm sure thats not what its intended for but in a world where Dwarfs are more mobile than Elves you have to make do until we get some new rules!

@Black_Fortress_Immortal I like your Double Dragon list. I started with double dragon, 2 x 30 executioners and 30 darkshards + some odds and ends. Its terrifying in a pick up game at a store but I didn't get on so well against more competitive lists. Post how you get on running the batallion - I never seem to have points for it, even when it was 80 pts

 

The SoBD really is quite bad isn't she!? I wish she had some better spells and could cast more per turn. I don't even try to keep her alive anymore. I just throw her right into combat and hope the dragon rolls high! The Sorceress on the Dark Pegasus has a better spell but she is stuck in the compendiums - My group is not bothered by letting me use it and keep allegiance. Even she is overcosted and too easy to kill though.

Ah who cares, I like the models and the army so I'm gonna keep playing it.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

1 hour ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

@Kyriakin Have a look at Decanter of Egos for your artefact. Its a good way to get your darkshards in range if you get first turn - and extra movement for anything else in fact. You can also organise a 3" nudge in the Hero Phase by summoning a Balewind right behind stuff... I'm sure thats not what its intended for but in a world where Dwarfs are more mobile than Elves you have to make do until we get some new rules!

@Black_Fortress_Immortal I like your Double Dragon list. I started with double dragon, 2 x 30 executioners and 30 darkshards + some odds and ends. Its terrifying in a pick up game at a store but I didn't get on so well against more competitive lists. Post how you get on running the batallion - I never seem to have points for it, even when it was 80 pts

 

The SoBD really is quite bad isn't she!? I wish she had some better spells and could cast more per turn. I don't even try to keep her alive anymore. I just throw her right into combat and hope the dragon rolls high! The Sorceress on the Dark Pegasus has a better spell but she is stuck in the compendiums - My group is not bothered by letting me use it and keep allegiance. Even she is overcosted and too easy to kill though.

Ah who cares, I like the models and the army so I'm gonna keep playing it.

Yeah, I just feel like Darkling Covens are not the most competitive setup and NEED that extra hero-phase activation for additional damage to make up for it.

[Kyriakin]

I am painting and therfore still in the Thoughthammer stage, but isnt better to have the Darkshards back from the front line and shooting at units tied into combat?

Support, basically.

Anyway, I too don't like the SoBD. Paying 300 for a beat stick dragon, but his squishy, one-useless-spell rider-general neccitates staying largely out of combat.

A glass cannon general is not ideal, tbh

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Kyriakin Glass definitely, Cannon not so sure!  Yeah its a real shame - its one of the best models they ever made too. I think 260 points is closer to the mark.

Darkshards are tricky in my games so far - I have probably had 9 games with them since GH2017. If you are playing against an aggressive army like Khorne or IronJaws then yeah I run spears in front to take the hits, executioners/Guard ready to counter attack and the 'shards behind to fire into the combats. Also in Duality of Death you just need to get them in range of the objectives. Against ranged armies or armies that like to castle up in the backfield they are harder to use and tend to be more of a meat shield than an actual threat. 

How you use them is very dependent on the scenario and the opponent so its best not to make too many plans up front!!!

Again they are really underwhelming - No rend, tiny 16" range - not the most inspiring shooting unit! At least its easier to get the 4+ hit rolls now. They don't even compare very well to dwarf or free peoples crossbows - those units have more range & rend and its easy enough to get them to fire twice but they are the same points cost.

Almost the whole army is in its "beta" format. Hopefully we get a battletome next year or at least som more tweaks in GH2018.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

8 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

I am painting and therfore still in the Thoughthammer stage, but isnt better to have the Darkshards back from the front line and shooting at units tied into combat?

Support, basically.

Anyway, I too don't like the SoBD. Paying 300 for a beat stick dragon, but his squishy, one-useless-spell rider-general neccitates staying largely out of combat.

A glass cannon general is not ideal, tbh

Right, well if you're taking the Battalion, and you need a Coven-Master... I'd rather have one that is -1 to hit and has 14 wounds with a 14" fly to get out of danger quickly.

Darkshards can either run + shoot squishy units, or castle up with the reroll 1's to wound Command Ability since 6" move + d6" run + 16" shot + 3" Decanter of Egos = 28-29" average threat range. 

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

7 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

@Kyriakin Glass definitely, Cannon not so sure!  Yeah its a real shame - its one of the best models they ever made too. I think 260 points is closer to the mark.

Darkshards are tricky in my games so far - I have probably had 9 games with them since GH2017. If you are playing against an aggressive army like Khorne or IronJaws then yeah I run spears in front to take the hits, executioners/Guard ready to counter attack and the 'shards behind to fire into the combats. Also in Duality of Death you just need to get them in range of the objectives. Against ranged armies or armies that like to castle up in the backfield they are harder to use and tend to be more of a meat shield than an actual threat. 

How you use them is very dependent on the scenario and the opponent so its best not to make too many plans up front!!!

Again they are really underwhelming - No rend, tiny 16" range - not the most inspiring shooting unit! At least its easier to get the 4+ hit rolls now. They don't even compare very well to dwarf or free peoples crossbows - those units have more range & rend and its easy enough to get them to fire twice but they are the same points cost.

Almost the whole army is in its "beta" format. Hopefully we get a battletome next year or at least som more tweaks in GH2018.

Right, I mean with no rend, you shouldn't shoot them at units with great saves.  Against something like Stormcast Eternals, there's going to be a bit of a problem if you're hitting Dracoth riders and Stardrakes with them.  

False.  Neither Freeguild Crossbowmen nor Quarrelers have rend (only Freeguild on a wound roll of 6+).  Freeguild and Quarrelers have LESS of a threat range than Darkshards, since they can't move/have enemies within 3" for their extra shots, while Darkshards can easily be given the ability to Move + Run + shoot for a 20"+d6" threat range with 2 shots/model.  I think Darkshards can be extremely useful if used on the proper targets.  

I wouldn't say it's in the "beta" format, but I'd say that it's a horde army that has the ability for hero-phase shenanigans (rerollable charges on your elite infantry musicians)  with the ability to dictate 1st turn priority with a 1-drop Battalion.

[Twitch of Izalith]

10 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

False.  Neither Freeguild Crossbowmen nor Quarrelers have rend (only Freeguild on a wound roll of 6+).  Freeguild and Quarrelers have LESS of a threat range than Darkshards, since they can't move/have enemies within 3" for their extra shots, while Darkshards can easily be given the ability to Move + Run + shoot for a 20"+d6" threat range with 2 shots/model.  I think Darkshards can be extremely useful if used on the proper targets.  

Yeah sorry i didn't write that very well, I should have mentioned the 6+ condition for the freeguild and the quarrellers  need to be buffed by a runelord to get rend. I think they may even have another buff that will get them to -2...

I hadn't really thought about using the command ability to run and shoot, so thats a good call  I have generally been using them in units of ten working with a unit of ten dreadspears so things get messy if one unit is moving a lot faster than the others. And I have been using the command ability to run and charge my combat units.

I didn't mean to suggest its a bad army by saying its beta format. Its just underdeveloped. lack of characters and associated synergies is the biggest problem. and a few points costs are still too high. More spells would be good too - for an army where the characters are all magic users.

It still wins games though! It just can't compete with highly optimised lists from the strongest factions although wierdly you CAN compete with 90 Vulkite fyreslayer lists (if you take 60 - 80 Executioners) which all the other top tier lists are struggling with.

 

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

2 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Yeah sorry i didn't write that very well, I should have mentioned the 6+ condition for the freeguild and the quarrellers  need to be buffed by a runelord to get rend. I think they may even have another buff that will get them to -2...

I hadn't really thought about using the command ability to run and shoot, so thats a good call  I have generally been using them in units of ten working with a unit of ten dreadspears so things get messy if one unit is moving a lot faster than the others. And I have been using the command ability to run and charge my combat units.

I didn't mean to suggest its a bad army by saying its beta format. Its just underdeveloped. lack of characters and associated synergies is the biggest problem. and a few points costs are still too high. More spells would be good too - for an army where the characters are all magic users.

It still wins games though! It just can't compete with highly optimised lists from the strongest factions although wierdly you CAN compete with 90 Vulkite fyreslayer lists (if you take 60 - 80 Executioners) which all the other top tier lists are struggling with.

 

Right, I haven't played Darkling Covens, but am going to be proxying a game very soon.  I think having a screen of 3 x 10 swords/spears to block your archers is a good idea, like have the Darkshards RIGHT behind them, run your spears/swords, run the Darkshards behind, and pray that you force them into making some tough saves.  Keeping the Executioners/Blackguards safe also seems to be the linchpin of the list.  Also, depending on the enemy, it may be a good idea to let them go 1st, move their units within range, and you may be able to swing a double turn to make use of your Battalion ability.

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Black_Fortress_Immortal Yeah I have found that getting first turn isn't much of a big advantage with DC. Its helpful VS alpha strikes because it gives you a chance to push forward off home objectives and create a bit of a firewall. I almost never get the choice because I have a lot of drops but your list should give you the option most of the time. There doesn't seem to be many one drop lists around anymore. Its good to go second and then get the chance for an early double turn

20 executioners can do scary amounts of damage. The small bases mean you can fight in 2 ranks and with 41 attacks hitting on 3's + a few 6's doing 2 mortal wounds each you can take apart pretty much anything. 

They are great fun for games with your mates - its just when it comes to writing a list that can take on all armies in all 6 battleplans that the lack of characters and mobility starts to make you struggle a bit.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

9 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

@Black_Fortress_Immortal Yeah I have found that getting first turn isn't much of a big advantage with DC. Its helpful VS alpha strikes because it gives you a chance to push forward off home objectives and create a bit of a firewall. I almost never get the choice because I have a lot of drops but your list should give you the option most of the time. There doesn't seem to be many one drop lists around anymore. Its good to go second and then get the chance for an early double turn

20 executioners can do scary amounts of damage. The small bases mean you can fight in 2 ranks and with 41 attacks hitting on 3's + a few 6's doing 2 mortal wounds each you can take apart pretty much anything. 

They are great fun for games with your mates - its just when it comes to writing a list that can take on all armies in all 6 battleplans that the lack of characters and mobility starts to make you struggle a bit.

Right.  It seems like making your Behemoths stick around is what you need to do - which is why I like the Dreadlord on Black Dragon... 4+ rerollable save is pretty good, and the SoBD with -1 to hit her will extend survivability, especially with Word of Pain support.  Either that, or hide Assassins in some blocks of infantry and move to the objective, release and there ya have it.

With such a limited toolbox, I think that the Battalion is key, imo.

[Twitch of Izalith]

The Assassin can be really useful actually - I always have one in my Daughters of Khaine army recently. Just having a character that is mostly safe until he reveals himself is really powerful. 

I have all the units for the batallion so I might give it a shot next time I play.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

2 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

The Assassin can be really useful actually - I always have one in my Daughters of Khaine army recently. Just having a character that is mostly safe until he reveals himself is really powerful. 

I have all the units for the batallion so I might give it a shot next time I play.

Awesome.  Yeah, I can imagine that a 1-drop list, allowing them to go 1st to hinge the double-turn, so you can make the best use of your Battalion activation may really help.  Also, giving your Sorceress a key Shadowshroud activation to prevent instant-death would be nice, with the Incorporeal Retainer on your dragon for survivability.  Also, was thinking of Celestant Prime allied in for more mortal wounds and being a legit powerhouse.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

Was developing this list:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens

Leaders
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Darkling Sword
- Trait: Impossibly Swift
 - Artefact: Decanter of Egos  
Sorceress (80)
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Shadowshroud Ring 
Black Ark Fleetmaster (40)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Executioners (180)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
30 x Black Guard (430)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
30 x Darkshards (300)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Bleakswords (100)
10 x Bleakswords (100)

Battalions
Thrall Warhost (180)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 40 / 400
Wounds: 129


1-2 drop list.  This, more often than not, will allow you to dictate 1st turn.  If you see that they are deploying defensively, force them to take the first turn, otherwise you can go for an alpha strike like this:

• Deploy your 10-mans of Bleakswords/Shards as screens right on the edge of the deployment line, that can peel away like an "open door," if you decide to go first
• Deploy the Darkshard unit and then the Black Guard unit immediately behind that line
• Deploy a Sorceress behind the line, so that she forms the shortest line between the enemy and your units
• Deploy the other Sorceress to the side a bit, but so that a model from the Darkshards and Black Guard will be relatively close
• Decide turn order - if they deploy with some units relatively unguarded and close to you, then take it, otherwise let them go first if they are being shy
• In your hero phase, sacrifice some models to boost casting, throw Mystic Shield on your Black Guard, have the Sorceress with the Shadowshroud Ring summon the Balewind Vortex, which pushes your front line forward, then cast Word of Pain on a strong unit
• Command Underlings on your Blackguard OR Darkshards
• Use Decanter of Egos
• Run your Bleakswords up the field towards the enemy line, leaving a small lane in the middle
• Move + Run your Darkshards/Blackguard up the field, and fly your Sorceress on her dragon
• Shoot your dozens of Darkshards into the enemy, or attempt your 1st turn charge with the 30-man of Black Guard
• Attempt to charge your Sorceress into the unit with the -1 hit debuff (depends)

This relies on Balewind Vortex "cheese," pushing your line up.  The ability to get +3" movement, then to run + shoot/charge will really give you a good shot at a 1st turn charge (due to Darkling Coven musician).  This relies pretty heavily on the Vortex, which still may not go off, even with the +2 to cast, so it's good to deploy with your "open door" of 10-man chaff units.  However, if you do get the Balewind cast off, you can potentially get BOTH your Darkshards firing into their line (Balewind push + 9" move + 16" range), and your Black Guards charging as well.   The Sorceress on Black Dragon getting into combat is just another possibility, but you have to be VERY careful what you charge, since you should be debuffing whatever the Black Guards didn't charge with -1 to hit from Word of Pain (so they're -2 to hit when they swing into the Dragon... effectively neutering most units), as the Black Guards will most likely be killing what they charge.

The reason I didn't take 30 Executioners is that when there is a -1 to hit from Cunning Deceiver Command Trait (Chaos Allegiance), it makes them near-useless.  Also, they are a good bit more expensive, and the 1" reach is quite limiting.

Black Ark Fleetmaster is to fill out 40pts and act as another body for Objective games.

I can see some potential here in being very tactical/strategic.  Now, some of the counters would be the Cunning Deceiver Command Trait, and having their units in deepstrike reserve.  If you see that they are bubble-wrapping and screening very well, you can force them to go 1st. 

Having 3 Wizards is a great utility, as you're able to cast 3 spells that deal mortal wounds and debuff the enemy, giving you a nice edge against heavily armored targets.  Also, you have the Battalion ability to pick a unit to charge, pile-in, and attack in the hero phase... so long as your Sorceress on Black Dragon survives!  With 14 wounds, and the enemy debuffed to -1 to hit, I can see her surviving a turn, if your Black Guard is right in their face.

Thoughts?

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Black_Fortress_Immortal I think you might be 2 drops cos your fleetmaster is outside the batallion?

Cunning deceiver is only turn 1 so I wouldn't plan my whole list around it but you are right that -1 to hit is a problem for Executioners so watch out also for shadow mages and skink star priests, + neferata and no doubt a bunch of other things!! 

I've been looking at ways to get +1 for them but unless you run GA Order and take a hurricanum, the only option seems to be damned terrain! 

I still think they are the most powerful unit we have. BG are just as good against hordes of low armour troops though.

Fleetmaster is a good call for a cheap hero. Also look at Death Hags in Daughters of Khaine - only 60 points for some bargain damage output!

I'm playing my first game using the Batallion at the end of this week - I haven't done the list yet but I will post it.

 

[HorseOnABeachBall]

Dumb question , can you not use RBTs anymore ?

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

1 hour ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

@Black_Fortress_Immortal I think you might be 2 drops cos your fleetmaster is outside the batallion?

Cunning deceiver is only turn 1 so I wouldn't plan my whole list around it but you are right that -1 to hit is a problem for Executioners so watch out also for shadow mages and skink star priests, + neferata and no doubt a bunch of other things!! 

I've been looking at ways to get +1 for them but unless you run GA Order and take a hurricanum, the only option seems to be damned terrain! 

I still think they are the most powerful unit we have. BG are just as good against hordes of low armour troops though.

Fleetmaster is a good call for a cheap hero. Also look at Death Hags in Daughters of Khaine - only 60 points for some bargain damage output!

I'm playing my first game using the Batallion at the end of this week - I haven't done the list yet but I will post it.

 

Ah true.  I'd drop the Fleetmaster for 1st turn and try it anyways.  Death Hag would put the list at 2010pts, rather than 1990pts.  Also, the point is just to have a body to run towards an objective as needed.

False.  Cunning Deceiver is the first ROUND, so it affects both your turn and the opponent's turn.  I'm not planning around just that, since grot netters, yhetees, Death artefact, Slaanesh banner, etc. all can give -1 to hit.  When you're planning a list around a 1st turn alpha-strike you need to plan around penalties to your output.  With Black Guards, hitting on 4+ with reroll 1s will on avg have 30-35hits or so.

Also, the 2" reach is very important.  I'd rather get 61 attacks with -1 rend and the 3+/3+ with reroll 1's to hit all in on a 4+/5+ save unit.  Remember, the Balewind is pushing you up a bit, but not all 30 of the models will be pushed, so with the 3" pile-in, a 1" reach just may not be enough.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

1 hour ago, HorseOnABeachBall said:

Dumb question , can you not use RBTs anymore ?

You can, but only in ORDER Allegiance.  The main reason to take the Darkling Covens Allegiance is negating battleshock with 1 mortal wound, the insane Command Abilities you gain, and the Command Trait on your Covenmaster to extend their survivability.

[Twitch of Izalith]

18 minutes ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

False.  Cunning Deceiver is the first ROUND, so it affects both your turn and the opponent's turn.  I'm not planning around just that, since grot netters, yhetees, Death artefact, Slaanesh banner, etc. all can give -1 to hit.  When you're planning a list around a 1st turn alpha-strike you need to plan around penalties to your output.  With Black Guards, hitting on 4+ with reroll 1s will on avg have 30-35hits or so.

What I said wasn't exactly false - I might not have worded it in a way that removes all possibility for misinterpretation but the point was that it doesn't last all game!! 

I guess it depends what environment you are playing in. If you know your opponents are taking all this stuff then fair point, but against Stormcast and sylvaneth you will bounce off with BG and you won't with executioners - If you are heading to a tournament with your army you are more likely to see those armies than slaanesh, grots, death etc.

My main opponents are tzeentch, sylvaneth, stormcast and fyreslayers so the mortal wound output is strong against 3 of the 4. If I was facing more FEC, pestilens, deathrattle etc I would probably have had more success with black guard. 

I haven't played against KO yet but i'm pretty sure they would rinse me!

I see Darkling Covens more as a counterstrike army than an alpha strike. Against a good player you are going to run your guard into a chaff screen and then get murdered.  I would want some reliable movement or deployment shenanigans to try an alpha strike. My standard tactic is to get the enemy to come to me, take the hits on my dreadspears and then counter attack with my elites. I think the battalion abilty has a lot of potential for this style of play because you potentially get to initiate your counter in the hero phase instead of trying to pull it off in the move/charge phase. 

I'm not trying to say you should change your list - just throwing some other thoughts out there from the games I have had so far. It wouldn't be much of a conversation if we were both running the same stuff so its cool to have something different to compare with.

 

 

 

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

7 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

What I said wasn't exactly false - I might not have worded it in a way that removes all possibility for misinterpretation but the point was that it doesn't last all game!! 

I guess it depends what environment you are playing in. If you know your opponents are taking all this stuff then fair point, but against Stormcast and sylvaneth you will bounce off with BG and you won't with executioners - If you are heading to a tournament with your army you are more likely to see those armies than slaanesh, grots, death etc.

My main opponents are tzeentch, sylvaneth, stormcast and fyreslayers so the mortal wound output is strong against 3 of the 4. If I was facing more FEC, pestilens, deathrattle etc I would probably have had more success with black guard. 

I haven't played against KO yet but i'm pretty sure they would rinse me!

I see Darkling Covens more as a counterstrike army than an alpha strike. Against a good player you are going to run your guard into a chaff screen and then get murdered.  I would want some reliable movement or deployment shenanigans to try an alpha strike. My standard tactic is to get the enemy to come to me, take the hits on my dreadspears and then counter attack with my elites. I think the battalion abilty has a lot of potential for this style of play because you potentially get to initiate your counter in the hero phase instead of trying to pull it off in the move/charge phase. 

I'm not trying to say you should change your list - just throwing some other thoughts out there from the games I have had so far. It wouldn't be much of a conversation if we were both running the same stuff so its cool to have something different to compare with.

 

 

 

Right, which is why I said that sometimes going 2nd would be best.  It gives you the possibility of a double turn, and your mobility will be great for that first charge into their line.   All I know is that if I'm facing Skyfires, I want a chance at debuffing them with Word of Pain before they can do anything against me, and possibly get some running Darkshard shots into them.  Against something shady like Kharadron Overlords, you have to expect the deepstriking Ironclad, and you should deploy with your bleakswords and darkshards spread out to the MAX and force them to go 1st and eat some shots with your Executioners/Blackguard out of range so that you can counter charge and possibly double turn them.

And against something Khorne/Murderhost, Ironjawz, etc. you're not going to have a chaff screen - they're going to be up front to maximize their mobility.  If you see them set up with a chaff screen, force them to go first, so that it throws them off.

[Twitch of Izalith]

This is actually the first time I have tried to fit the batallion in my lists since it went up to 180pts.

I don't like that it leaves me 10 wounds down and I could get almost the same results as the ability from simply having a another unit...

I do like that I get 2 artefacts because I can make my general a bit more resilient and still take the Decanter which is my go to item.

Still, looking forward to giving it a shot. I think I'm playing Blades of Khorne so it should be fun times

Here's what i'm taking:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens

Leaders
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Witch Rod
- Trait: Sustained by Misery 
- Artefact: Incorporeal Retainer 
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos 
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Lance of Spite & Tyrant Shield
- Allies
Black Ark Fleetmaster (40)
- Allies

Battleline
20 x Black Guard (320)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
20 x Executioners (360)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
20 x Dreadspears (200)

Battalions
Thrall Warhost (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 360 / 400
Wounds: 118

[Kyriakin]

You prefer the Incorporeal Retainer to the Shadowshroud Ring for the SoBD? I was the of same opinion previously, but am reconsidering.

I think it depends on the opponent, but the ability to effectively switch off a shooty enemy's attacks against Squishoress on Squish Dragon for a turn is great IMHO.

However, I do like the simplicity and ubiquity of t-shirt saves. Clean, easy-to-remember and (somewhat) useful.

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Kyriakin I haven't actually used the ring so far. I have been running lists that only get 1 artefact and its always been the Decanter of Egos! 

I knew I was fighting a Khorne army for this game so I wasn't too worried about shooting but the shadow ring looks like its worth a try for more shooty opponents. and maybe switch to impossibly swift for the trait to get -1 to hit

On 24/12/2017 at 11:11 AM, Kyriakin said:

Squishoress on Squish Dragon

 that made me laugh really loud which would have been fine if I wasn't in an office full of people...

She actually survived the whole game last week!! I have started using her really aggressively teamed up with the Serpentis Dreadlord - both of them together do decent damage (though its still less than you would want for a 620 point investment!!) and sustained by misery does a good job of keeping her alive and keeping the dragon dangerous if you are fighting all the time. 

I try and use them on my opponents weaker units and hordes which they are more survivable against. Shooting and ranged mortal wounds are still the biggest problem.