Lets Chat: Darkling Covens

[Kaleun]

Well the Bleakswords/Dreadspears are a perfect Tarpit unit. Cheap bodies and they wont deal many wounds to the enemy. In the lists above you can always use them as screening units to lure enemy chargers into. I wouldnt go offensive with them, cause that infantry models neither do much damage nor can take a lot of punches.

The Knights by them selves are beefy indeed, but far to expensive compared to the cheap BSwords, DSpears or DShards (factor 1.6)!

Your Setup depends on the mission and the enemy. Personally I would go for something like this:

... if you have to fear attacks from the front or the back. Buffing most of your units shouldnt be to hard, because you only need one model of each unit close to the Sorceresses.

[Spiny Norman]

Like it that the Druchii are seen on the field again. Came a long way from their supreme rule in WHFB to be neglected in AoS.

What about allying Doomfire Warlocks? Are they too expensive, for what they do?

Doombolt reads awesome, off on a 5, 18", 6 guaranteed MW's if you hit a unit with 10+ models...

[GammaMage]

It's actually 6 if the casting unit has 10+ doomfire warlocks. A lot of people read it wrong (including myself, it had to be pointed out to me).

[Spiny Norman]

Oh, that's unfortunate.

But it explains a lot, thank you.

[Twitch of Izalith]

@GammaMage have you tried allied sisters of slaughter as a defensive unit? I am finding them quite effective in my DoK army. In a unit of 20 with mystic shield they have a 3+ save in combat and succesfull saves do mortal wounds on a 4+. They are quite weak against shooting though because the +2 save mod only applies in combat. 

You can also use units of 10 as suicide blockers against things like muderhost - they have so many attacks that you end up doing a bunch of mortal wounds even though your unit gets wiped. It doesn't work that well against bigger multiwound enemies though.

they die pretty quickly but unlike the spears or swords they usually take a good few enemy models with them.

 

 

[GammaMage]

I was thinking of doing that, but got derailed by planning to build Darkling Covens/Anvilgard which didn't include Daughters as an option. But now that they errata'd Firestorm so I can't take both allegiances, I guess Sisters of Slaughter are back as an option. Will try them out.

[Twitch of Izalith]

Yeah my Anvilguard army hasn't really worked out either. I'm having another go trying to make something with drakespawn knights and fulminators because they will both benefit from the potential for multiple charges and it kinda fits the fluff with the guys who go out to hunt/capture monsters and so on in the jungles. I figure order serpentis would be trying to get some dragons and drakespawn and maybe the stormcast go along hoping to hook up with some dracoths.

Having looked at the Knights in more detail I think they are quite badly overcosted at 160. If you compare them to Goregruntas which are 20 points cheaper or Chaos knights at the same cost they don't have much going for them. They are nice models though and mobility is always good.

[GammaMage]

I respectfully disagree. I have been playing a squad of 5 knights with Mystic Shield on them (provided I don't fail my cast), giving them a 3+ save with the Darkshields rerolling 1s and 2s. Their damage output isn't huge, but they often end up being a roadblock for my opponent. I'm actually gonna try a squad of 10 next week and see how that goes.

 

In other news, I played a game against a new player who only had the Start: Collecting Seraphon box. I played my Sorceress on Black Dragon, a unit of Bleakswords and two units of Darkshards. They did surprisingly well, mowing through her Saurus Knights and Warriors quite easily. I felt like I was rolling high a lot, especially the number of saves I made. Or maybe it was just the bad Seraphon saves that made the difference. Of course, then her Trogladon waded in and single-clawedly took out the Bleakswords and most of the Darkshards. My Dragon Sorceress rallied though, and managed to finish off the Sauraus Oldblood general that the Bleakswords had already wounded, and then kill the Trog. I'm gald it was such a close game (I don't like beating up new players, we want them to come back again) and somewhat impressed by my little battlelines doing some hard work!

[Kaleun]

I also think that the cost of Darkespawn Knights are a bit on the high side, especially after the point drops in the GH2. They are by no means bad, but I also the Dragon Blades of the Order Draconis 20 points cheaper with a very similar profile and a lot more Movement!

[Curry_Supreme]

Hey covens experts,

quick question, I want to build 20 dreadspears or bleakswords. Which is the better, flexible option from your opinions?

Help will be greatly appreciated!

cheers,

CS

[Kaleun]

On 4.9.2017 at 9:06 PM, Kaleun said:

lets talk about the Dreadspears, Bleakswords and the Darkshards.

the table above shows the damage caused in ranged/close combat against certain enemy armor values. Every Unit consisting of ten Models cost 100 Points. The Dreadspears suffered a point increase from 80 to 100 what makes them worse compared to Bleakswords.  However the Spears might have a advantage in big numbers because of their 2" spear range. From my point of few I would use Bleakswords as Chaff units backed up by Darkshards.

I wouldnt say that BG and Executioners are better. They have a different purpose on the battlefield and also an elite status compared to the cheap line infantry. I for myself see the executioners as a flanking unit and do not even try to build them as a center combat regiment. However this is where Black Guard comes in. The 2" range favors large units und they bring very much needed rend to your Darkling Coven army. If you manage to buff your guard's to hit roll they hit on 2+ rerolling ones and wound on a 3+.

I have to add: I would no recommend to ally an War Hydra in. The Hydra is weak damage wise. It is more meant for staying power, holding one flank.

 

page 2 of this thread: I say Bleakswords are far better actually. Dreadspears might only be better in great numbers to capitalize on their 2" range.

[GammaMage]

Bleakswords are more flexible. They always have 3+/4+, and get an extra attack on 6+. If you have 20 or more, the extra attacks work on 5+ instead, but expect to lose models fairly quickly and lose the benefit fast.

Dreadspears are better on defense, as they have a 4+/4+, but have two ways to buff that. One is to stand still, and the other is to have 20 models. If you're playing Darkling Coven allegiance, a unit of Darkshards guarded by a unit of Dreadspears is hard to budge off of an objective or chokepoint, especially if it's close to your deployment zone. But outside of this sort of strategy, they're not as good.

[Curry_Supreme]

Cheers guys the swords it is

[Slave2Chaos]

Considering something along the lines of the following for an upcoming FLGS one day tournament ...

1500 points Battle Host

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Witch Rod
- Trait: Impossibly Swift  
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos  
Sorceress (80)

Battleline
10 x Executioners (180)
-  Darkling Covens Battleline
10 x Executioners (180)
-  Darkling Covens Battleline
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Executioners (180)
-  Darkling Covens Battleline

Units
2 x Fulminators (240)
- Allies
1 x Bloodwrack Shrine (140)
- Allies

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Allies: 380 / 400


Thoughts?

[GammaMage]

Are the extra wounds the Bloowrack Shrine has over the Bloodwrack Medusa worth losing her faster movement?

Do you have a plan for fighting anything that gives -1 to hit? That would completely negate your Executioners.

[Slave2Chaos]

On 11/1/2017 at 3:43 AM, GammaMage said:

Are the extra wounds the Bloowrack Shrine has over the Bloodwrack Medusa worth losing her faster movement?

Honestly I went with the shrine due to it rounding out the points nicely ...

On 11/1/2017 at 3:43 AM, GammaMage said:

Do you have a plan for fighting anything that gives -1 to hit? That would completely negate your Executioners.

Threat saturation is really all I have to offer and at 1500 points I hope that will work. Otherwise I can always try to run up and shoot the xbows and hope to snipe off a character

Any suggestions?

[GammaMage]

Normally I'd suggest switching one squad of Executioners to Black Guard, but you alreadyhave the Fulminators with rend to fill in if your Executioners fail. I have come up against grot netters a lot, but your Bloodwrack Stare should be good at dealing with grot hordes.  It really depends on what you think people will bring.

The fact that losing a single Darkshard drops you below 20 is a concern, but I can't see a way to squeeze in a 100pt squad of Bleakswords to help out.

[Kyriakin]

Is there any viability to an "elite" DC army? By that, I obviously mean, SoBD, sorceresses and allies aside, it's basically all Executioners and Black Guard. I move around a lot, so want to keep my model count reasonably low.

I am guessing many people here have existing BS, DS and DS units as a holdover from WHFB, but I would be starting from scratch.

Obviously, it makes one of the new Allegiance Abilities worthless, while the other one at 3" is also kinda meh anyway - especially with standard bearers. However, the new Command Abilities are inherently useful in this regard.

Also, do large Executioner units work? They obviously have no 20+/30+ rule advantages, but the SoBD being able to Mystic Shield and Command Underlings a greater number at a time (i.e. within a single unit) seems like it should get more to their intended destination. Not to mention the 60-point saving.

Finally,  I can't see a better SoBD combo than Witch Rod (best of a sucky bunch), Impossibly Swift and Incorporeal Retainer. Keeping this squishy general alive is basically the primary goal here, as far as I can see.

Conversely, increasing the spell-range of the regular infantry Sorceress with the Anklet of Epiphany against shooting or thinks in cc against your Executioners and/or SoBD. Obviously, this may well be in conjunction with the Balewind Vortex and Blood Sacrifice.

[GammaMage]

I actually started Darkling covens from  scratch, under the misguided idea that they were slowly going to update all the splinter factions (but instead they started releasing stuff like Kharadron making it obvious they were going to go with newer factions instead).

 

I think an elite DC army is viable, if a bit one-dimensional. If your Black Guard and Executioners are on the small 25mm round bases, the can attack in multiple ranks (Executioners in two, Black Guard in three) and their large number of 3+/3+ attacks makes them very brutal. The only things you have to worry about is keeping them alive long enough to deal the damage, and  avoiding counters (-1 to hit for Executioners, ignore rend for BG).

 

The drawbacks of not playing the Bleakswords or Darkshards are you don't have cheap screening units or ranged attacks. I feel they do still have a role to play in DC armies even with the elites becoming battleline.

[Kyriakin]

Also, i just realized that having no basic infantry means no cheap blood sacrifices.

Allegiance: Darkling Covens
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Witch Rod
- Artefact: Incorporeal Retainer 
Sorceress (80)
Sorceress (80)
30 x Black Guard (430)
30 x Executioners (480)
10 x Bleakswords (100)
10 x Bleakswords (100)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Allies
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Allies
Balewind Vortex (100)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 320 / 400

[GammaMage]

Ah, yes. That too. It really feels bad sacrificing an Executioner to get a bonus on spellcasting. Especially when you then roll an 11...

[Kyriakin]

I like the concept having a unit, which exists purely as a sacrifice so that the SoBD to Mystic Shield herself and live a bit longer. I was beginning to think that being in Order had taken away the DE's edge a bit, but that's suitably dark.

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I have to admit, though, I am finding SoBD to be somewhat awkward. I mean, the Black Dragon is a beatstick, but, unlike the Dreadlord, the Sorceress has almost no surviveability and the combined profile therefore becomes a glass cannon in close-combat.

Glass cannons are all well and good, but not if it's your general. Therefore, a lot of the 300-point value that is tied into the Black Dragon's CC ability might well go unused as you want to avoid putting the squishy rider general into the thick of the action.

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It would be cool if the basic infantry sorceress could "hide" within a Black Guard unit until they fall below, say, five models. She could then project her Word of Pain, Mystic Shield and, if she is a general, command abilities out from this unit without getting blasted off the board.

This would give the Black Guard some fluffy utility as they "guard" their leader, and would make taking a non-SoBD general viable. Bump the Sorceress up to 100 points and the Black Guard up to Executioner prices (180/480), and you'd be good to go.

[Kaleun]

I wouldnt go to town with such a big unit of executioners. The only advantages are a point reduction and the possibility to buff that big unit for a greater impact then a smaller one. Nevertheless I wouldnt do it because you create a huge overkill with all your attacks. Yes you might slaughter every enemy unit you can get to, but your opponent will know how to stop your charge. Executioners are also quite slow. I prefer the Black Guard in a big unit due to their 2" range.

With the Darkling Coven Traits/Artefacts you can make a SoBD quite tougher. Regarding the damage you must take her Arcane Bolt also into account.

However the SoBD is the most survivable hero Darkling Covens can field. So we are kind of stuck with her. She is not bad for her points.

[Twitch of Izalith]

I've been having a bit of a break and playing 40k while everyone gets excited about shadespire but my Daughters of Khaine and Darkling Covens are back on the table now

@Kaleun I think SoBD is ok for 300 points outside of tournaments - against a hard competitive list she would have to be about 160 points to earn her cost back! (like that would happen) Resilience is more important than damage output in competitive games and she is sooo easy to kill.

Are you running her with impossibly swift or Sustained by Misery ? I'm caught between the 2. often she is killed before SbM gets to take effect but I have had good success at keeping her alive in my "double dragon" list where she forms a "unit" with an allied dread lord - something always dies within 12" of 2 dragons! and its a lot tougher prospect for people to deal with. The downside is that its a lot of points in one place.

@Kyriakin I started from scratch with AoS too and with a really similar army to the one you are planning - max executioners!! I think 20 is the optimum number for damage output but my current list has 1 x 20 and 2 x 10 black guard. There is definitely space for another unit of 20 executioners for an elite list. It Does work really well. My first list was just 2 units of 30 and 2 dragons + some spears and a sorceress and it SMASHES things - but its also not that interesting to play or very effective at the objective game. It will do well in pick up games in a store but regular opponents or most tournament opponents will be able to counter it quite easily.

30 is tempting for the points reduction but its so many points in 2 units that the other half of your army suffers. Multiple small units supported by the standard battleline is more versatile and harder to counter.

Thats my experience anyway but there are quite a few armies I haven't played against so I will probably end up changing it up again - I have no idea how I would play against Kharadrons for example. The darkling army is slow and quite fragile so Its likely to fall apart quite quickly against massed high quality shooting

[Kyriakin]

It must be the -1 to hit Trait for the SoBD, surely?