Let´s Talk Skyre

[Betelgeuse]

Nice list! 

There will always be stuff there to ruin your day (like stardragons with mirrorshield, longstrikes, skyfires, rotigus, etc, etc) but that will always be the case for all lists that require certain squishy models to be alive in order to trigger something awsome). 

[Gwendar]

True, and I'm not asking for some list that will beat everything, I just want something that could be tailored to a few situations and I can change it as needed. I understand it all comes down to the player, but I also don't want to run something ridiculous like 3x3 stormfiends and 12 jezzails as fun as that may be. Being new I just really love having some CC from people that have clearly played more than me.

Another idea I had floating around was taking 2x3 fiends, dropping the balewind and going 2x5 acolytes, or dropping the gutter runners and going 2x3 fiends and 2x10 acolytes. Maybe one unit with warpfire and the other with shockfists. How well does a grinderfist+2 ratling gun fiends work in comparison to shockfists or warpfire?

[NemoVonUtopia]

I have found grinder fists to be better than shock gauntlets without buffs. 

I would think that the grinderfist rattling cannon would be good for threatening back line units and objectives since they will require a decent effort to get rid of. Warp fire and buffed shock gauntlets will probably do more damage but you loose the mobility and unpredictability of tunneling.

[Gwendar]

34 minutes ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

I have found grinder fists to be better than shock gauntlets without buffs. 

I would think that the grinderfist rattling cannon would be good for threatening back line units and objectives since they will require a decent effort to get rid of. Warp fire and buffed shock gauntlets will probably do more damage but you loose the mobility and unpredictability of tunneling.

Buffed as in from a packmaster? I just assumed even without that they would still be pretty insane, are doomflayers  much better without packmaster buffs? I'm buying three boxes, so I planned on building 3 projectors, 3 shock gauntlets and 2 ratling guns+1 grinderfist.

[NemoVonUtopia]

39 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Buffed as in from a packmaster? I just assumed even without that they would still be pretty insane, are doomflayers  much better without packmaster buffs? I'm buying three boxes, so I planned on building 3 projectors, 3 shock gauntlets and 2 ratling guns+1 grinderfist.

Shock  gauntlets are still good without buffs but in my experience rolling 6s to hit isn't common enough to make them better than grinder fists unbuffed. But since the build choise is shock or doomflayers, I would rank shock gauntlets over doomflayers all the time because I personally dislike the random number of attacks and random damage. 

[Sastopher]

17 minutes ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

Shock  gauntlets are still good without buffs but in my experience rolling 6s to hit isn't common enough to make them better than grinder fists unbuffed. But since the build choise is shock or doomflayers, I would rank shock gauntlets over doomflayers all the time because I personally dislike the random number of attacks and random damage. 

If you're just talking about flat damage and your'e not factoring in anything like re-rollable armor saves, shock gauntlets are strictly better. They do 22% more damage unbuffed, which more than accounts for the 16.7% reduction from rend against higher armor targets. Of course, you don't get to use their deployment rules, but you only need one grinderfist to do that if you really want it. You also can get opportunities to buff without packmaster (such as doomed terrain) which stretch this imbalance out further.

See this post for the math behind it

[Gwendar]

Sounds good then. I hear different things about all the weapon choices from time to time, some clearly being better or worse for situations and the doomflayers were suggested to me once. I guess I'm just stuck between picking 2 of the 3 mentioned above for an "all-purpose" scenario: 1x3 shock, 1x3 warpfire, or 1 grinder+2 ratling to come up from behind as an "assassin" unit.

Of course I'm strictly talking on what I can build from 3 boxes worth, some of the people around here are heavily in favor of wysiwyg so proxying isn't an option usually. Then again for all I know maybe only using one unit and taking more mortars/acolytes/balewind may be better "all-purpose".

[Mayple]

@Gwendar

Wait wait wait! You have FIFTY acolytes available!? Use them! By the great horned rat! USE THEM! Especially if you're running clanrats as well. Clanrats and Acolytes work extremely well together. Heck, the only reason I'm not running full blobs of Acolytes myself is because I haven't gotten around to converting them all up yet, and proxying more than a few times isn't really my thing. I can guarantee you that those Acolytes will get the job done. Doesn't have to be two full blobs, but at least one well utilized full unit of them will wash the floors, do the laundry, and pay your taxes. Two blobs will paint your house as well. 

Trust me, nothing will want to walk into range of 30 of those, especially if you have a line of clanrats to cover them, and this will give you an extreme board controll. March your little clanrat+acolyte blob of death up onto an objective and unleash choking death upon anyone foolish enough to challenge you. Nothing short of a well-placed surgical acolyte-targeted alpha strike//Gaunt summoner//Enemy Skryre artillery will see them die needlessly, and most of those things can be dealt with in some way. 

Trust in the acolytes. They're the unseen powerhouse of Skryre. 


Listwise, your second list was much better than the first, in my opinion  Much more flexible. 

[Gwendar]

@Mayple Oh, yeah. I went a little crazy on conversions with them in order to mess around with a list idea I had in mind that I'll list below.

Allegiance: Skaven Skryre
Arch Warlock (140)
- General
- Trait: Overseer of Destruction 
- Artefact: Esoteric Warp Resonator 
Grey Seer (120)
- Allies
Plague Priest with Plague Censer (80)
- Allies
3 x Stormfiends (300)
30 x Skryre Acolytes (320)
20 x Skryre Acolytes (240)
9 x Warplock Jezzails (420)
3 x 1 Poisoned Wind Mortar Weapon Team (180)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
- Allies

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 400 / 400
Wounds: 151

Granted this was awhile back and I feel that having some engine-covens would be beneficial opposed to not having any but, what do you think? The initial idea was just using the seer's spell + mortars for hordes and having the 9 jezzails sit on a back obj and shoot at heroes while the blobs on rats and acolytes just, well, kind of do whatever. Maybe even drop 25 acolytes and add another unit of fiends, assuming some engine covens wouldn't be outright better.

[Kisufisu]

I... I want to see the 30-50 acolytes.

[Gwendar]

16 hours ago, Kisufisu said:

I... I want to see the 30-50 acolytes.

Well, they aren't painted yet. And I checked and only have about 36 built as of right now. Just monk bodies, heads and weapons with an electro priest arm that's holding a 6mm airsoft BB and they have skitarii ranger backpacks. I'll be sure to show you all the acolyte legion once I have them up and running.

[Mayple]

Just gonna point out that we're on page 13, and Acolytes are in demand.

 

The great horned rat has spoken!

[Gwendar]

Clearly. I just saw mention previously of bigger blocks of them performing well but I hadn't tried them and it sounded interesting so... I did it and I can't say I regret it so far, even if I've yet to play with them. 50 Acolytes are a lot less time consuming to convert than the 80 night runners that I did.

I imagined that as more of a "fun" list though, but hey..maybe I'm wrong based on your reaction. Would you say that last list I posted would work out better than the one before that @Mayple ?

[Nikobot]

@ Gwendar

Just pointing out that the list on previous page wasn't legal, both enginecovens rattleguage and Gascloud require 1+ units of Stormfiends
I believe you only had 1 unit in there

I liked the list too darnit

[Nikobot]

4 hours ago, Mayple said:

Just gonna point out that we're on page 13, and Acolytes are in demand.

Done. next list is going Acolyte heavy ! Boy I hope I have enough inspiring presence lol.

[Kirjava13]

I'm going to start work on converting my first Acolyte soon, got most of the bits. What I wouldn't give for new models ? 

[Mayple]

@Gwendar your latest list is better, yes, but it can be even better if you modernize it with some enginecovens. A simple gascloud+arkspark, or rattlegauge+arkspark should round it out well. The latter compliments your hordekilling with mortal wounds in a good way.

The grey seer is redundant. Your hordekilling is already great. Warlock engineers is an easy replacement

The plaguepriest, although a good addition, will probably also have to be replaced by a warlock engineer. Grey seer+plague priest = 2x warlocks.

Then it's just a matter of shuffling points around to accomodate the enginecovens. You can consider removing 10 acolytes from the 20man unit to accommodate this. Then a mortar+20clanrats for the warplightning cannon.

The reason you want arkspark is because it is one of the cheapest covens, and you need two covens to get the battalion it also helps you out, so there's that.

[Gwendar]

9 hours ago, Nikobot said:

@ Gwendar

Just pointing out that the list on previous page wasn't legal, both enginecovens rattleguage and Gascloud require 1+ units of Stormfiends
I believe you only had 1 unit in there

I liked the list too darnit

Oh, I was under the impression I just needed 1 unit in general, not one for each coven. Azyr tells me it's valid with only 1 unit, is that not correct?

 @Mayple Sounds good, I want an excuse to use the wlc I have built, so I like arkh+rattlegauge. If I do that I think the only way to fit everything in is to drop the jezzails down to 6 no matter which way I go with this and have the 20 man acolyte unit dropped to 5 and take no mortars, unless of course I just drop the clanrats to 20 and I can have 2 mortars instead. Similarly, arkh+gas would let me have 2 mortars+6 jezzails and keep my clanrats at 40 and  have 35 total acolytes unless I drop the clanrats to 20 as well and take 5 more acolytes, but I don't know about that being a good trade off.

I'm happy with the Arkh+gas idea, but the biggest issue is the different setups I could do with arkh+rattle. 2 mortars and 20 clanrats, or 40 clanrats and 0 mortars. I suppose you could look at one being better with single target (although I guess 2 shots of jezzails per turn will do good against anything, not just heroes) and a stronger screen vs having horde clearing, but a weaker(?) screen and keeping the hero sniping intact. Unless I should just be relying on the acolytes and forget all about the mortars.

I've always had it drilled into my head that clanrats should only ever be in groups of 40, no less, so I've always been hesitant to drop them to 20 just to fit in other things unless that extra 20 clanrats are unnecessary with 35+ acolytes. I just put them in as a 40 man screen for the acolytes to sit directly behind and make use of that 9" range to hit whatever is unfortunate enough to charge the clanrats. But if you guys tell me otherwise I'm cool with it. The less models I have to move around the better.

[Nikobot]

6 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Oh, I was under the impression I just needed 1 unit in general, not one for each coven. Azyr tells me it's valid with only 1 unit, is that not correct?

Whilst handy in some respects, Azyr / Warscroll builder are really pieces of garbage for accuracy. Misleading, not up to date and overall useless for relying upon.

Do not use them to validate your lists. I really can't believe GW hasn't upp'ed their game on these, it blows my mind.

Mayple has some good advice there.

[Nikobot]

Sorry, also should have confirmed, that no you'll need separate units in order to satisfy the requirements of the enginecoven... you could virtually get the special abilities of all 5 enginecovens with the same set of minimal units otherwise!

Or imagine taking 5 rattleguage warplock's so you can fire 5 times in the hero phase with the same unit of 9-12 Jezzails lol ! oh that would be glorious... ahh alas.

[Kugane]

8 hours ago, Nikobot said:

Whilst handy in some respects, Azyr / Warscroll builder are really pieces of garbage for accuracy. Misleading, not up to date and overall useless for relying upon.

Do not use them to validate your lists. I really can't believe GW hasn't upp'ed their game on these, it blows my mind.

Mayple has some good advice there.

I pay 1,50 a month for that azyr app, but its frustrating how much stuff is outdated.

[Kirjava13]

I respectfully recommend you stop paying for something that does not work as advertised.

[Mayple]

Warscroll builder tends to do the job for me, but I only use it to calculate points. No experience with Azyr.

 

On a different note: faced Kroak again. This time my opponent used him properly, and teleported him in 29'' away from my warplightning cannons, and set him up on a Balewind. He then proceeded to hit my entire army with his aoe spell, and finished off my three mortars (who were all at full hitpoints before he popped up) with the comets, as well as crushing my doomwheel, which had been hit by both spells, with an arcane bolt, dropping it from 6 to 0.

I conceded immediatedely My only tactical options were to roll up my cannons, which would still be out of range, but my warlocks and arch warlock were all at half health, and I didn't exactly trust two units of 20 clanrats to carry the day. Nor the gravely wounded (hit by both spells and an engine of the gods) Stormfiends to somehow close the 24 inch gap between themselves and his front line. 

Basically, it turns out that Kroak on a balewind can outrange our entire army, and kill off every weapon team we have reliably in a single turn. Outgunnlined by a single caster.

I didn't get a single hero phase where I was able to use an enginecoven.

For general context:

- scorched earth

- he kept his entire army out of range.

- He failed his first teleport.

- Gutter runners took a stab at Kroak. A second unit threatened an objective.

- Doomwheel sped forward on the flank, beelining to assist the gutter runners. It killed a salamander, so there were only about 15 skinks between it and the objective. Good odds.

- weapon teams moved forward to fire, only in range of skinks. Killed 20 something. Cannons moved forward, shot skinks. 

- Clanrats moved to block off my flank objectives, backed up by acolytes. Not wanting to overextend against his behemoths (engine, bastiladon, bastiladon) - 13 rats died to shooting, but I anticipated this and they were inspired. 

- Stormfiends walked onto a damned terrain with the warlock, ready for a +2 to hit buff on the following turn. Assuming anything walked forward on the centre. 

- his first turn, he moved everything backwards, shot at my clanrats, and hit the stormfiends with the engine of gods for 6 mortal wounds. He failed his teleport.

- doubleturn. He shot the stormfiends for another 3 mortal wounds. Kroak came in on Balewind. The rest is mentioned above.  

 

Jezzails confirmed superior choice (read: only choice) 

 

Any thoughts on how to deal with this? My arch-warlock is seething with anger. His nemesis, the seraphon, has somehow found a way to counter his glorious machines.

 

My own notes points towards a 'There were no tactical choices I could possibly have made that would have changed this outcome. Once Kroak is on the Balewind, victory is unobtainable' but perhaps I'm missing something. 

[Nikobot]

@ mayple

Ahh the dirty frog.. Small model Skryre/Weapons teams are kinda allergic to him.

Possibly Gautfyre? Though he could bubble, but might force an interesting tactical stand-off as he waits to see where you will pop up. Not That you may want to run this list...

Overcharged mortars 30" range, hope for the hail Mary to land and Shard it.

The aforementioned jezzails are your friend.

Balewinds are just turning up way too much it seems.

thanks for the write up!

 

[Mayple]

1 hour ago, Nikobot said:

@ mayple

Ahh the dirty frog.. Small model Skryre/Weapons teams are kinda allergic to him.

Possibly Gautfyre? Though he could bubble, but might force an interesting tactical stand-off as he waits to see where you will pop up. Not That you may want to run this list...

Overcharged mortars 30" range, hope for the hail Mary to land and Shard it.

The aforementioned jezzails are your friend.

Balewinds are just turning up way too much it seems.

thanks for the write up!

 

He put himself in a far off corner. So hitting him early with anything except Gautfyre scorch would have been impossible

and I'm such an opponent of Gautfyre. Hrm.. 

I can also think of how he could counter jezzails, come to think of it. Or at least nudge a few of them off the table. If he starts with throwing a bastiladon in shooting range of the jezzails, he'll have to roll pretty poorly not to kill any. With a chance to wipe em out up until a unit of 9 (if we consider battleshock)

 

Leaving gautfyre as potentially the only answer.

 

Balewind. Why!?

Of course, if I run Verminus, I could just flood the board, and that'd be that which is hilarious. Competitive list stands no chance, but my joke list would hard counter it. Skryre is hard pressed to have any chance at all, it seems

I don't think Balewind vortex is healthy for the game it really underlines an edged rock-paper-scissor aspect to a game that is otherwise about making the right tactical decisions. I will never use it!