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Sigwarus

Stacks are out! New FAQ

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The wording is "it and any daughter of khaine models" to describe models that are affected by the bloodshield. It does not refer to the cauldron of blood or the blood shield, as James Ramsey says above. Therefore the "any" rule does not take affect on this warscroll. As it is worded now, I don't see a good reason why it wouldn't stack.

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19 minutes ago, James Ramsay said:

It never uses the word any to describe the cauldron just if there are any witch elves in range they receive the shield save. 

I suggest reading the FAQ on the 'any' wording again. 

8 minutes ago, Uncas said:

The wording is "it and any daughter of khaine models" to describe models that are affected by the bloodshield. It does not refer to the cauldron of blood or the blood shield, as James Ramsey says above. Therefore the "any" rule does not take affect on this warscroll. As it is worded now, I don't see a good reason why it wouldn't stack.

any.jpg

Cauldron of Blood grants it and one or more Daughters of Khaine models protection with Bloodshield. Add 1 to the result if the model is a Witch Aelf. Can a model be a Witch Aelf twice? I doubt it. Which part exactly do you now assume would stack? 

Additionally lets use the Errata example:
 

Quote

Q: When the word ‘any’ is used in the criteria for an ability, does it mean that the ability is applied only once when the criteria for the ability are fulfilled? For example, if an ability said ‘Add 1 to hit rolls for models that are within 6" of any models with this ability’, would I add 1 to the hit rolls of a model that was within 6" of three models with the ability, or would I add 3?
A: The ability is applied only once, no matter how many times the criteria are fulfilled – ‘any’ is treated as being synonymous with ‘one or more’ in the Warhammer Age of Sigmar rules. In the example, this means that 1 would be added to the hit rolls, not 3.

For example, if an ability like Bloodshield said 'Add 1 to the result if the model is a Witch Aelf for those that are within X" of any models with this ability (it and any). E.g. There are three Bloodshield models. Would you then add 1 or 3?  A.g. This means that 1 would be added, not 3. 

Edited by Killax

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4 minutes ago, Killax said:

I suggest reading the FAQ on the 'any' wording again. 

any.jpg

Cauldron of Blood grants it and one or more Daughters of Khaine models protection from Bloodshield. Add 1 to the result if the model is a Witch Aelf.

Can a model be a Witch Aelf twice? I doubt it. Which part exactly do you now assume would stack? 
 

That'd be the additional 5++ saves.

Not that the save check itself goes lower than 5++ :P

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1 minute ago, Mayple said:

That'd be the additional 5++ saves.

Not that the save check itself goes lower than 5++ :P

Oh that's how I see it too. But that hasn't got anything to do with "abnormally powerful stacking".

Indeed I agree that a 5++ is granted to a Witch Aelf, regardless of the number of Bloodshields active, so to say. 

Edited by Killax

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I think you still got it wrong. If it said "so long as they are within range of any bloodshield" instead of "the bloodshield" you would be right on. But it is referring to the models affected. Just cuz the word any is in the description does not mean that the FAQ takes effect. It matters what it is referring to

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14 minutes ago, Uncas said:

I think you still got it wrong. If it said "so long as they are within range of any bloodshield" instead of "the bloodshield" you would be right on. But it is referring to the models affected. Just cuz the word any is in the description does not mean that the FAQ takes effect. It matters what it is referring to

As before, how would you make your units Witch Aelfs twice (or more)?

It states add 1 to the result if they have the Keyword.
I'm totally okay with you trying to make something different out of that but the added bonus is Keyword related, not ability related.

Edited by Killax

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I'm sorry, I don't really get what you are saying about making a witch aelf a witch aelf twice.

There are lots of abilities that say roughly " do this to any faction/enemy/etc unit within such and such radius." That doesn't mean they only affect 1 unit that meets that requirement because the word "any" is in there, which I guess is what you are getting at, but im not sure.

What matters for the stacking argument is whether the word "any" is in front of the thing giving the buff, not in front of the thing getting the buff. For example, "any blizzard aura" is the wording on the frostheart phoenix, and it doesn't stack. "The Blood shield" is the wording on the cauldron of blood, so the "any" rule doesn't really apply here, even though the word any appears on the warscroll 

Edited by Uncas
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2 minutes ago, Uncas said:

I'm sorry, I don't really get what you are saying about making a witch aelf a witch aelf twice.

There are lots of abilities that say roughly " do this to any faction/enemy/etc unit within such and such radius." That doesn't mean they only affect 1 unit that meets that requirement because the word "any" is in there, which I guess is what you are getting at, but im not sure.

What matters for the stacking argument is whether the word "any" is in front of the thing giving the buff, not in front of the thing getting the buff. For example, "any blizzard aura" is the wording on the frostheart phoenix, and it doesn't stack. "The Blood shield" is the wording on the cauldron of blood, so the "any" rule doesn't really apply here, even though the word any appears on the warscroll 

As on the previous page, there is no all covering rule on this. Meaning stuff like "that say roughly" can't be applied as an overall blanked.

What I am saying to you is that the Add 1 to the result (note result, not roll) is only there for models with a Keyword. It is not just adding to all that are effected, nor is it adding to rolls or characteristics or anything of that kind.

 

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He's saying, I think, that the ability works thusly: For each cauldron you have near your unit in question it gets a bloodshield that 6+ protects them, 5+ if they have the keyword. He's saying that they don't get additional +1's to the roll, but they do get multiple bloodshields as it is written. Which is also how I read it. @Uncas point about "the bloodshield" instead of "any bloodshield" is spot on, logically (for instance banners tend to say any banner).

As to whether they intend for your units to get more than one bloodshield, I titanically doubt  it, but for now the language is poorly written, but clear, and even avoids the FAQ affecting it.

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Ok, maybe we are in agreement and I misinterpreted you. 

I think that with multiple cauldrons of blood, you get multiple 5+ saves. I do not think that the save gets better with each additional blood shield( i.e. The 5+ would become a 4+ with 2 blood shields, etc.)

Edited by Uncas
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2 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

He's saying, I think, that the ability works thusly: For each cauldron you have near your unit in question it gets a bloodshield that 6+ protects them, 5+ if they have the keyword. He's saying that they don't get additional +1's to the roll, but they do get multiple bloodshields as it is written. Which is also how I read it. @Uncas point about "the bloodshield" instead of "any bloodshield" is spot on, logically (for instance banners tend to say any banner).

As to whether they intend for your units to get more than one bloodshield, I titanically doubt  it, but for now the language is poorly written, but clear, and even avoids the FAQ affecting it.

Thanks! I am even saying you don't get additional +1's to rolls but the result because that's specifically what the ability states. 

So as above, yes I agree that there can be multiple areas of Bloodshield active, effecting multiple models. Most models will have that 6++ and specific models with the Keyword have the option to add 1 to the result of that 6++. This usually means that they indeed can obtain a 5++ but not 4++ or 3++.

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It's simple. According to RAW, witches get 2 bloodshields with 2 cauldrons. 1 wound? Roll 2 dice. With a 5+ on any of them, you ignore it.

Edited by Rubencm81
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Yes thats clearly whats is RAW, unfortunately as I've said in the UK right now some tournaments are not allowing it, which is their right! And I don't mind that at all, but I would like GW to clear it up once and for all if possible. 

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For the life of me, I don't know why this is still an issue in this day and age.  All GW has to do is start using the exact same language in ALL of their rules.  Stop using terms like "any" "a" "the" or "this."  Explicitly state in the rule whether it's "for each one" within range or "for one or more" within range:

Thingamajig: Enemy models apply -1 to their hit rolls if they are within 6" of one or more Thingamajigs.
Thingamajig: Enemy models apply -1 to their hit rolls for each Thingamajig within 6".

Whatchamacallit: Friendly models apply +1 to their hit rolls if they are within 3" of one or more Whatchamacallits.
Whatchamacallit: Friendly models apply +1 to their hit rolls for each Whatchamacallit within 3".


Done and done.

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Just to be sure:

If I have a Skeleton standing between  two Wight Kings with Infernal Standards and it dies, do I roll for both flags or for one? I'd guess both because it doesn't say "any".

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14 minutes ago, Aginor said:

Just to be sure:

If I have a Skeleton standing between  two Wight Kings with Infernal Standards and it dies, do I roll for both flags or for one? I'd guess both because it doesn't say "any".

No, roll for one.

"Roll a dice each time a Death model from your army is slain within 9" of an Infernal Standard." Operant word="an". This is a yes or no question, not a count of how many or a trigger for each.

Are you next to a standard? If yes, roll a dice. If not, do not roll a dice.

Ways it could be written for it to work how you want it to:

"Roll a dice each time a Death model from your army is slain within 9" of The Infernal Standard."

"Roll a dice each time a Death model from your army is slain within 9" of each Infernal Standard."

Edited by heywoah_twitch
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17 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

No, roll for one.

"Roll a dice each time a Death model from your army is slain within 9" of an Infernal Standard." Operant word="an". This is a yes or no question, not a count of how many or a trigger for each.

Are you next to a standard? If yes, roll a dice. If not, do not roll a dice.

Ways it could be written for it to work how you want it to:

"Roll a dice each time a Death model from your army is slain within 9" of The Infernal Standard."

"Roll a dice each time a Death model from your army is slain within 9" of each Infernal Standard."

Ok makes sense. I don't really care since I only have one Wight King. I was just asking out of curiosity. :)

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13 hours ago, Rob Hawkins said:

For the life of me, I don't know why this is still an issue in this day and age.  All GW has to do is start using the exact same language in ALL of their rules.  Stop using terms like "any" "a" "the" or "this."  Explicitly state in the rule whether it's "for each one" within range or "for one or more" within range:

Thingamajig: Enemy models apply -1 to their hit rolls if they are within 6" of one or more Thingamajigs.
Thingamajig: Enemy models apply -1 to their hit rolls for each Thingamajig within 6".

Whatchamacallit: Friendly models apply +1 to their hit rolls if they are within 3" of one or more Whatchamacallits.
Whatchamacallit: Friendly models apply +1 to their hit rolls for each Whatchamacallit within 3".


Done and done.

Superb post. Consistency is so important.

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16 hours ago, James Ramsay said:

Yes thats clearly whats is RAW, unfortunately as I've said in the UK right now some tournaments are not allowing it, which is their right! And I don't mind that at all, but I would like GW to clear it up once and for all if possible. 

You are more gracious than I would be. Why would a TO ban a legal list? Do they give you good reasons why, like it takes too much time to roll all the dice and so game lengths are too long? I hope it is not because it is "op," because you could ban a lot of stuff that fit that description...

Edited by Uncas

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I dont think the designers intended models to take multiple special saves from multiple cauldrons of blood or infernal standards. It sounds like some TOs think the same and are comping to that effect.

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2 hours ago, Captain Marius said:

I dont think the designers intended models to take multiple special saves from multiple cauldrons of blood or infernal standards. It sounds like some TOs think the same and are comping to that effect.

We don't know what the designers wanted, I'm sure they didn't but anticipate lots of combinations which slipped through the net which is why I would really like designer faq to cover this issue that's been rumbling on for over a year now.

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At the end of the day this is not a big impact on the game. If you face 2 or even 3 (Not so many people have 3 cauldrons), it is going to be themed list. A unit will be probably under 2 cauldrons max, so you will need to roll 2 dice instead of one for every wound. Not a big problem. I do not see Dark elves Tier 1 to be honest.

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12 minutes ago, Rubencm81 said:

At the end of the day this is not a big impact on the game. If you face 2 or even 3 (Not so many people have 3 cauldrons), it is going to be themed list. A unit will be probably under 2 cauldrons max, so you will need to roll 2 dice instead of one for every wound. Not a big problem. I do not see Dark elves Tier 1 to be honest.

I used 4 at a recent big uk tournament and it was very effective, but the army is extremely limited with no shooting, little. Mortal wound output, no allegiance abilities or artifacts or a useful batallion etc. it's no way near tier 1, but people don't like it as it 'feels wrong' I suppose? I ironically lost to a 0+ save rerolling 1 stardrake which my army couldn't touch! Talk about survivable!! 

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