Rule Question. Mourngol Ally

[FatherHellion]

Hi!

I don't have the new book or havn't found the answer by googling or skimming through multiple forums.
What death armies can the Mourngol ally with? The keywords for the Mourngol is "DEATH, MALIGNANT, NIGHTHAUNT, MONSTER, MOURNGUL"

Because I heard somewhere that it's some ally restrictions unless you build a Grand Alliance army. - I want to have a flesh eaters army but heard some can't ally with them.

So which subfaction can the Mourngol ally with? 

[BaldoBeardo]

IIRC on leaks so far, FEC can't ally with Nighthaunt.
But you can just grab yourself an ally necromancer and summon one?

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[FatherHellion]

Good point. So if that doesn't work. Just an ally Necro and 400p in summoning. Worth a shot. Thanks. 

[choocheelo]

sorry guys.. but https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Monstrous_Arcanum_Aug2017.pdf

Mourngul still 400 pts but his warstroll is nerfed... =\

[meelow]

sorry guys.. but https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Monstrous_Arcanum_Aug2017.pdf
Mourngul still 400 pts but his warstroll is nerfed... =\

But it's 4+ mortal wound save is now a wound and mortal wound save on 5+


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[choocheelo]

2 minutes ago, meelow said:

But it's 4+ mortal wound save is now a wound and mortal wound save on 5+


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he is my single model, who dont fear tzeench magic in our open play with no limit on spells.

[Deathrain]

1 hour ago, choocheelo said:

sorry guys.. but https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Monstrous_Arcanum_Aug2017.pdf

Mourngul still 400 pts but his warstroll is nerfed... =\

That's horrendous. Loses 1 rend, only -1 to hit max, and the mortal wound save reduced to 5+. 

[deynon]

51 minutes ago, meelow said:

But it's 4+ mortal wound save is now a wound and mortal wound save on 5+


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you have to add the CaC rendo from -2 to -1

the malus withinn 6" always -1 bravery 

"devourer of the flesh" works only at the end of the CaC phase

to that decrease in the saving^^

[meelow]

And no more extra attacks, just plus 1 damage on a roll of 6+


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[seanafly]

He didn't only get nerfed, his extra save now counts for regular wounds as well, making him more resilient against non-mortal wounds.

[FatherHellion]

Well. It was bound to happen. Still a nice centerpiece model.

 

But it's still true I can only get him in a FEC list if I ally death and then summon?

[Kramer]

5 minutes ago, FatherHellion said:

Well. It was bound to happen. Still a nice centerpiece model.

 

But it's still true I can only get him in a FEC list if I ally death and then summon?

Yes, you can summon him without breaking allegiance. Same with daemons ouside of a specific god and so on.

[FatherHellion]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

Yes, you can summon him without breaking allegiance. Same with daemons ouside of a specific god and so on.

Yes. But there is no way to have it as an ally if you want to keep it FEC? 

[deynon]

7 minutes ago, FatherHellion said:

Yes. But there is no way to have it as an ally if you want to keep it FEC? 

You can alwas simply summon it, not necessarily it has to be allied.

[KeX]

Stupid question 

Im looking Necromancer and where it says that he can somon Mourngol as he dont have that spell or im missing something?

[TheWilddog]

 Stupid question 

Im looking Necromancer and where it says that he can somon Mourngol as he dont have that spell or im missing something?

 

Look at the Mourngul scroll.  It says Death Wizards know the Summon Mourngul spell. This is the way summoning works in general.

[KeX]

ok so why you need necromancer as any wizard can somon

[FatherHellion]

27 minutes ago, KeX said:

Stupid question 

Im looking Necromancer and where it says that he can somon Mourngol as he dont have that spell or im missing something?

 

7 minutes ago, TheWilddog said:

 Stupid question 

Im looking Necromancer and where it says that he can somon Mourngol as he dont have that spell or im missing something?

 

Look at the Mourngul scroll.  It says Death Wizards know the Summon Mourngul spell. This is the way summoning works in general.

That is true. Any Death Wizard can summon a Mourngul. 

But if I am to take a Necro just to summon I might aswell have a general that can use magic with Command Abilities/similar. 

[FatherHellion]

Since I wanted a army that not needlessly had a Ghoul King. But it works I guess. 

[Naflem]

Arguably he can't ally with anyone because allies seem to refer to the faction names as they're presented in the GHB, not keywords, and despite having the nighthaunt keyword he doesn't appear in a list of nighthaunts factions, rather is, I guess that "Monsterous Arcanum" faction which nobody has as an ally..  Still trying to get a straight answer on this though. 

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Naflem said:

Arguably he can't ally with anyone because allies seem to refer to the faction names as they're presented in the GHB, not keywords, and despite having the nighthaunt keyword he doesn't appear in a list of nighthaunts factions, rather is, I guess that "Monsterous Arcanum" faction which nobody has as an ally..  Still trying to get a straight answer on this though. 

He is a night haunt unit, he can ally with anyone who can take nighthaunt as allies.

The monstrous arcarnum is because it's a forge world model rather than a standard Gw model.

He still has the keyword which makes him part of the night haunt.

[Naflem]

36 minutes ago, Malakree said:

He is a night haunt unit, he can ally with anyone who can take nighthaunt as allies.

The monstrous arcarnum is because it's a forge world model rather than a standard Gw model.

He still has the keyword which makes him part of the night haunt.

That would make sense to me in a vacuum for Nighthaunt, but since we've got things listed for allies like Monsters of Chaos that don't have a common keyword and things like the skaven clans for whom the keyword isn't exactly the same as the faction name, and it's the faction name; it seems to me that the ally rules must be talking about faction names not keywords, and as far as I know there's never been something that says what a faction is beyond the models that are listed under that factions in the generals handbook, or the age of sigmar app, or maybe the games workshop website, or whatever.  But in any of those cases, for example, you'll not find mourngul under nighthaunt.   

[inunn]

7 minutes ago, Naflem said:

it seems to me that the ally rules must be talking about faction names not keywords, and as far as I know there's never been something that says what a faction is beyond the models that are listed under that factions in the generals handbook, or the age of sigmar app, or maybe the games workshop website, or whatever. 

This is a really interesting problem. I lean towards the idea that the faction(s) a unit belongs to are properly determined by keywords. Partly because it seems to be an important part of how keywords work, especially re: allegiance abilities, partly because the other definition of a faction (i.e the grouping that a matched play profile is presented in) has not been explicitly defined anywhere in rules. Though examples like ‘monsters of chaos’ seem to break the keyword=faction rule, it is notable that by and large this is the rule and most factions do have an associated keyword. I think the monsters of chaos thing is forgeworld rules people and gw rules people getting wires crossed, and the skaven thing is basically a mistake.

Consider that having a mourngul in a Nighthaunt army wouldn’t break your allegiance for the purposes of ‘battleline if...’ or for taking allegiance abilities. How strange would it be if they wrote the rules for allies intending to use a completely different basis for determining faction/allegiance.

[Malakree]

48 minutes ago, Naflem said:

That would make sense to me in a vacuum for Nighthaunt, but since we've got things listed for allies like Monsters of Chaos that don't have a common keyword and things like the skaven clans for whom the keyword isn't exactly the same as the faction name, and it's the faction name; it seems to me that the ally rules must be talking about faction names not keywords, and as far as I know there's never been something that says what a faction is beyond the models that are listed under that factions in the generals handbook, or the age of sigmar app, or maybe the games workshop website, or whatever.  But in any of those cases, for example, you'll not find mourngul under nighthaunt.   

So when a monster doesn't have a keyword it is just part of the general grand alliance rather than for a specific faction.  This is most noticeable for the destruction monsters, since there are so damn many, where some of them ARE part of a faction.

So the Rogue Idol of Gork has the Greenskinz keyword, so is part of the Greenskinz faction. This means it can ally with all of the Orruk and Grot factions, who all have Greenskinz as an ally. This makes absolute perfect sense, what Orruk or Grot WOULDN'T ally with what is functionally an embodiment of their God(z) will. 

On the other hand why would any Destruction have an allegiance with a Basilisk? Sure if it's a generic swarm of Destruction you might see random Monsters along with the hordes but it wouldn't make sense for any Greenskinz or Ogres to have an allegiance with the creature.

 

Equally does it not make sense that a Clan Moulder army would field Wolf Rats or a Brood Horror? They literally made them, it's completely believable that a Skryre Warlock might decide to "borrow" some from Clan Moulder. 

 

While it may be a little questionable for the Mourngul it makes perfect sense when taken in context of all the other things in the Monstrous Arcanum.

Oh and https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder ,which is litterally linked to the gamesworkshop website, has Mourngul listed as a Behemoth for Nighthaunt.