STOP WITH THE COMPLAINING AND REMEMBER WHY WE HAVE TGA.

[Tzaangor Management]

I have read a large number of posts on this forum that have tried, unsuccessfully, to address this issue and in far more subtle and circumspect ways. I am glad that the conversation is being had in the open even if it came as a bit of a shock to read it.

I think it's also worth noting that criticism is not inherently bad and I do not think that is what is being suggested here. Repetitive criticism that does not move a conversation forward is bad and would be what I would describe as negativity. The distinction, in my opinion, is worth making.

 

 

[chord]

Personally I feel the negative slide has been increasing since the release of the first GHB and matched play.

There used to be lots of discussion of different units, pros/cons, battle reports,etc.

Now all you hear is over pointed, under pointed, etc.  Bad allegiance abilities, traits etc.

Hopefully this is a wake up call to keep things civil as well as ensuring that people don't come into a thread and automatically start calling units bad

[Kosmion]

I think critisism both positive and negative should be discusses here - the greatest forum on the internet! As long as the wording and language is kept mature and the poster has some sort of point or substanse to his/her agenda. Tho personal preferences might be hard to word in such ways, because aestethics are seldom logical, and no "right" or "wrong" can really be assessed. 

So in short I'd say: express what you feel, just keep it mature and leveled, like you would do talking about plastic figures at a local store (you wouldnt shout out that you ***** hate stormcast, and wanna see something new for example). 

[Warboss Gorbolg]

15 minutes ago, Tzaangor Management said:

I think it's also worth noting that criticism is not inherently bad and I do not think that is what is being suggested here. Repetitive criticism that does not move a conversation forward is bad and would be what I would describe as negativity. The distinction, in my opinion, is worth making.

I tried drafting something similar but couldn't articulate it this well.  

[jazzy128]

Am I right thinking that nobody who is engaging in this discussion is the target? In my opinion, anyone who participates in a meaningful way in a discussion is absolutely fine. To me the few problem cases are single line statements without any arguments made. 
Now I'm the kind of hobbyist that gobbles up anything GW throws out, and I'm usually surprised when people find negative things to mention. That being said, there are definitely cases where a user makes a negative case that i hadn't thought of, but I still end up agreeing with.

In short, negativity based on constructive criticism and argumentation is always ok. Echo chamber one liners that brings nothing to a discussion is not good for the community, or anywhere else for that matter.

[someone2040]

I sadly think that while the message needed to be said, the execution of said message has been pretty poor.

 

I don't think it was necessary for a topic in all caps telling people to play nice or go complain somewhere else (In fact, I think it's a bit sad to resort to calling out other places and telling people to moan there).

I think all that was necessary was a topic making a statement that the mod team is a bit concerned with the negative attitude as of late, and will be taking a more assertive stance in talking to/warning/temp banning people who have been reported as derailing topics/negative attitude/etc.

 

At the end of the day, it's up to the community to come together and present the right kind of attitude to each other and the outside world. But it's up to the mod team to step in and chat to individuals or close topics that they feel are portraying too much of an attitude they feel is not good for the community. In essence, the mod team should be guiding us back on the right path when they feel we're heading off course.

[Galas]

This is a no-brainer.

 

You don't like something? Write it in a reasonable and constructive manner in a related post. One time. JUST, ONE, TIME. ONCE, UNA VEZ,  UNE FOIS, AKONÄHLE , EINMAL.

 

The problem is people that don't stop posting the same thing. One time, and another, and another, and another ,in every post, even unrelated post, 20 times in the same post. "Omg more stormcast" "Skeletons OP plis RITO nerf" "GW only want our money". 

I don't see how hard is to post your dislikes about AoS in an apropiate manner. Obviously, is more work. But complaining for complaining don't helps anyone to achieve anything. 

This is no "Omg free speech" or "Echo chamber!" or "You are a bunch of AoS fanboys!". As Ben said, even when you are being negative, do it in a positive and constructive way. (And not repeat yourself. All the time. Some people is REALLY tiresome) 

 

EDIT: If I read again at a "Ey guys can I field this unit and have a chance? Whats the best way to use this unit" thread the answer of "That unit sucks because isn't Kunnin Ruk/Skyfires" I'll shot myself in the head. NO every people is playing in a big tournament competitive meta!

[Jharen]

Perhaps I'm wrong but...

It's my understanding that the post isn't to dissuade people from discussing the positives and negatives of a topic, but rather it is to point out that 'discussion' is the goal.

If someone posts "I hate stormcast, so sick of stormcast, they're stupid."  That's just a person stating their negative opinion on something.  There's little to no attempt to drive a discussion within that statement.

We should take the time to consider our words and how they will add to the conversation instead of just wanting to kneejerk our feelings into a thread for the sake of being heard.

I don't think Ben is saying "don't disagree" or "never say a bad word about AoS", he just wants their to be civil discussion and growth in the community instead of bashing and hostile one-liners.

[KingCheops]

Thank you!  I'm not a big contributor but I considered myself an AoS refugee who had finally found a constructive place to discuss pros and cons.  To my dismay this place was beginning to resemble the forums listed in the OP.

[Kamose]

Thank you Ben!

This is something that bears repeating every now and again. Having an opinion and voicing a complaint is all well and good, however the entire Internet seems to have forgotten (or never learned) that how a message is spoken is nearly as important, possibly more important, than the message itself.

This forum does have it's share of negativity and keeping it in check is important. However, The Grand Alliance, seems almost full of starry-eyed optimists compared to other forums.  Just check Dakkadakka's recent 8th Ed. 40k discussions. I'm so close to just leaving that whole god awful place and the only reason I don't is because they are actually the least miserable 40k forum out there. 

There is no other place quite like this for wargaming and I'd like to think that's due to the people who founded it and the spirit in which Ben created it. I would hate to see it slide into the nasty, entitled whining and bitter, hateful temper tantrums that fill most other forums. That behavior is what drove most of this community out of those places during AoS's 1st year.

 

[Mayple]

I hate garlic chips. They are terrible. 

 

 

Jokes aside, well, hold on; I think dark aelves and skaven should merge into a halfbreed abomination of a faction that allows me to kick dirt in my real-life opponent's eyes and hold his family hostage to extort a victoru, as a game feature. If you disagree, I think you're being too negative

Okay, NOW jokes aside.

To play a little bit of devil's advocate, there was this one thread a while back where this one person (don't remember who) was very adamant about his/her dislike of the AoS lore/world in a way that, once the discussion had gone back and forth a bit, could definitely be interpreted as whiny or negative.

However, in our attempts at convincing this individual of the glory of the AoS setting, we inadvertedly created a sizable lore-appreciation thread which simply would never have happened if the opening statement was 'Age of Sigmar is great, don't you agree?' or 'Tell us why you love Age of Sigmar' - that we had to argue against something 'negative' gave the motivation and spark to unintentionally create something beautiful that wouldn't exist without it. Positivity needs the existence of negativity to truly flourish. The joy of fighting the good fight, and all that jazz. Psychology, yo.

Not to say that the example above functions similarly across the board, or that it somehow justifies, and forces us to simply accept needless complaining as a neccessary evil. Just felt it was worth throwing out there

Generally, I think people will, and should, get away with a fair bit of whining as long as they're lighthearted about it, and/or use a lot of smilies. It is scientifically proven (by no one, yet) that smilies and jokes make you seem less salty/angry/negative/whiny, almost regardless of statement. Give it a try, it's magic (yes, smilies can make you appear condescending and/or sarcastic, but that is hardly the greater of two evils, now is it? ) 

 

[amysrevenge]

I hope this works Ben. I've gone from 5 times a day to 2 times a month visiting the forum in the last half-year or so.  Maybe this brings me back haha

[Still-young]

5 hours ago, wayniac said:

I think the issue is where do you draw the line?

The line is pretty clear I think. Constructive criticism is fine, repetitive, unconstructive complaining isn't. 

[Spiky Norman]

1 hour ago, Mayple said:

To play a little bit of devil's advocate, there was this one thread a while back where this one person (don't remember who) was very adamant about his/her dislike of the AoS lore/world in a way that, once the discussion had gone back and forth a bit, could definitely be interpreted as whiny or negative.

However, in our attempts at convincing this individual of the glory of the AoS setting, we inadvertedly created a sizable lore-appreciation thread which simply would never have happened if the opening statement was 'Age of Sigmar is great, don't you agree?' or 'Tell us why you love Age of Sigmar' - that we had to argue against something 'negative' gave the motivation and spark to unintentionally create something beautiful that wouldn't exist without it. Positivity needs the existence of negativity to truly flourish. The joy of fighting the good fight, and all that jazz. Psychology, yo.

Not to say that the example above functions similarly across the board, or that it somehow justifies, and forces us to simply accept needless complaining as a neccessary evil. Just felt it was worth throwing out there

 

You pinpoint a great example of how TGA is very different than most other wargaming forums.

Yodhrin have been trolling up Dakka for a long time and when I saw his first post here, I sighed. But the community response to him, apparent that most/all didn't know him from other forums, was really excellent to see, and a testament to how great TGA can be.

I know that is not how it always work out, but I think it is worth pointing out when you can really see that positive "spirit" that makes/made TGA different. I hope it stays different that way :-)

[valenswift]

6 hours ago, SuperKick said:

 

I could go on, honestly why even play the game if it annoys you that much? 

 

This.

[Nubgan]

@BenI think you can tell by the number of posts that appear on here asking 'Is there a forum like this for X game or Y system' that you have a set a good bar and created a really decent community up here Ben. I hope the negativity doesn't increase to a silly point, because one thing I have really enjoyed about being here the last many months (not sure how long now) is that people are usually so hyped and super helpful about things.

I wouldn't say that things are starting to get polluted with negativity, there is still a really positive attitude and you find a lot of people bend the negative topics into quite constructive topics despite that sometimes. What I will say is though, is that it is clear that people are clearly posting for postings sake sometimes, even if others have made a topic, or posted the same stuff hours or even minutes before, that's the thing that turns me off really. I would get rid of the  'Top contributor' table, unless you can set it up for likes instead.

Finally, don't give up buddy, its a fantastic place and I doubt that will change if you continually manage and update things like you do. I don't where people are from, but us English/British people can't help a good whinge sometimes, its a genetic defect unfortunately because of all the rain and road traffic (I bet Science can prove this one day!).

 

EDIT: I realise upon re-looking you already did this, living up to the namesake here

[TheJagerBear]

Still pretty new to the site but wanted to give my opinion to show my agreement on the goal of this thread.

So far I've had a great experience here and I'm really enjoying it. I don't think there's anything wrong in openly calling out this type of negative engagement.

I believe most people, even those who do have a moan or complaint time to time, will know this isn't targeted at them.

Also, I don't think you need to provide a written explanation and justification for every 'negative' opinion you might have. As someone else said, it's all about the tone and language you use.

Thanks and keep up the good work everyone!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[RuneBrush]

Thanks for this post Ben and putting a stake in the ground to try and get the forum being a bit more positive overall 

I'm sure there's lots of reasons why this has happened, some of them have been highlighted already and some have been written between the lines so to speak.  I trust the moderators on here to make good calls over what is negative and not.

There are always going to be disagreements when you've a diverse group of people who are on the whole really passionate about "their hobby".  As I've said on past occasions, electronic mediums (e-mails, forums, Facebook, SMS, WhatsApp etc) are really, really bad at conveying any kind of emotion - it's really easy to emphasise something (CAPS, bold, underline) but how do we convey tongue in cheek, softly spoken or sarcastic?  Sadly this often results in disagreements turning nasty and negative and you only need one Negative Nancy comment to overshadow all of the positives (same with you only need one person to pass wind in an office and everyone is aware of it).

I'm fairly positive we're going to lose a few members here, some will be very open about going and some will quietly disappear.  If we come across them in other areas of the internet, let's not hold an ill will against them if, for whatever reason they had cause to rile you here - we still all share a common hobby  

[Ratatatata]

It's very entertaining that a lot of posts in this very thread proves your point. 

This was much needed and I hope moderating the forums will go in line with what you posted.

The rumour thread is a great example of this turning into the grand whinealliance forum. I'd like to read news & rumours but it'd page after page of nonsence. 

[CJPT]

Thanks for posting this. Just wanted to throw my hat in the ring with everybody else saying 'I've been visiting less and less because of the change in tone.'

I got back into miniatures games with AoS, like a lot of people, and life is too short to spend time moaning about something I do for fun. If I didn't like it, or I thought that GW were fundamentally untrustworthy or needed constant critique to keep them in line, I would just do something else.

Which isn't to say that there can't be interesting conversations about the pros and cons of different models, books, rules and so on - but it shouldn't be about points-scoring. Something that put me off returning to wargaming was the sense that it was full of people trying to win arguments and tear each other down, rather than building and sharing cool things. More building and sharing cool things, ta.

[Guest]

The fact that there are multiple posts here that start with variations of 'I think what Ben means is...' suggests that more clarification is needed.

I appreciate that some people take the attitude that all negative thoughts are better internalised than broadcast publicly, but the majority of people inhabit a spectrum between 100% positive and 100% negative. Ben's deliberately vague statement, which could reasonably be interpreted as 'only positive comments are allowed' is inevitably going to make a lot of perfectly good and reasonable contributors who sometimes take a more critical attitude (such as @Auticus) nervous that they are no longer welcome.

I also see posts here saying things along the lines of 'well obviously constructive criticism is allowed' - but is it obvious? Ben certainly doesn't state this in his post, so we're straight back in 'I think what Ben means is...' territory.

I dare to venture that there's a degree of unconstructive negativity in Ben's post itself (sorry Ben). I think a less confrontational tone and clearer behavioural guidelines would be much more effective in helping him achieve his objectives, and in reassuring nervous contributors that they are still welcome.

Until this clarity comes from Ben himself, anything that anyone else says is just their personal interpretation of his words. Transgressions that might result in a ban shouldn't be left open to interpretation and guesswork. This flexibility might be more convenient for the moderators but it's not fair to the individual contributors who bring this community to life to force them to tread on eggshells and second guess themselves with every post.

I am fully on board with the general aim of stopping TGA from descending into a quagmire of bile, but can anyone honestly say that Ben's post makes it clear where the line is drawn? How many of you can say with 100% certainty that nothing you've ever posted here could potentially fall foul of this incredibly vague ruling? How can anyone be sure that they're safe to voice their opinion?

If a healthy and vibrant community is what's desired then perhaps this approach, presented in this tone, is more counterproductive than the exclusively positive contributors praising it here might realise.

[Chris Tomlin]

Well said @Ben,

As the person who has probably spent more time on these forums than anyone else since inception (ok, I guess I'll have to concede to @Nico there!), I have to say I have certainly noticed a shift over time. It's been somewhat of a snowball effect and it's important that a line is drawn in the sand so we can move on in a positive fashion. Perhaps there is some manner of complacency here. This forum is not an entitlement and lets remember why we are here; to talk about the game we all love!

10 hours ago, Rhellion said:

I've specifically stayed away lately because of the mood around here lately. Looking forward to a change of pace.

Comments like this are hard to read. Hard because it is such a shame that quality, AoS positive, posters are being kept away and hard because it is true. I've certainly found myself spending less time here of late. Not only are some of the topics out there painful to read, but I've felt the standard of responses to my own posts diminish.

Maybe there's an element of burnout or fatigue? This happens to individuals within the hobby (myself included of late) so why not a community? With that in mind, we have the GH2017 coming round the corner. It's a really interesting book with soooo much for us to discuss. We can use the release of this as a real springboard to return to greatness and start having some awesome conversations again. Friendly debate should be welcomed and encouraged. I am of the, perhaps naïve, opinion that this book comes out at a good time to help pull things around.

As I glimmer of hope, I will say that my little safe haven of the Destruction sub-forum has remained mostly positive during this time. We have a solid group of established posters there who all love the game and seem to steer newcomers in that direction with our outlook (at least I like to think that!).

Anyway, thanks to those of you who do to continue to post, read, reply and interact in friendly and positive way. On a good day here, this forum does genuinely add to my day. Let's have lots more good days eh?  

Chris

[MacDuff]

I've congratulated this community more than once for its uniquely positive way of treating each other while we typically swim through the bile of the Internet. When you get down to basics, human interactions and relationships are defined by the type of energy each party serves up to the other person. When both bring positive energy, friendships form. When one brings negative energy and the other positive, the negative one is using the other's attention and good graces for selfish ends. Think about a so-called negative friend who always complains to you while you try to make them feel better. That's a one-sided transaction where the negative one is using the positive one. It's not much different between anonymous folks on the net. Negative ones are using the positive ones, feeding off their attention for some strange type of self-gratification. All Ben is asking for is that we all bring positive frames of mind here and share in mutually enriching ways. It's really fundamental, and practiced by every religion on the planet: do unto others as you want them to do unto you. Sorry for the sermon. After 68 years, I think I've fairly earned these experience points.

[Louzi]

Overreaction? This forum is the most civilized I know. Even the whiners are not too whiny. I didnt notice any change, too.

[Sheriff]

I came to this forum as it's more useful in recommending stuff compared to the other I tried (Reddit), people here seem to be experts but without being silly about it. Didn't think it was too moany, but the bar is low on the internet