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Are mortal wounds killing the fun?


Myzyrael

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1 hour ago, ChaosUnited said:

@Criti I'm new to this game so am a little ignorant, but how would you be so assured of removing a thundertusk in one combat? 

Depends on what I'm playing,  honestly. 

Last time I played Thundertusks, it was using my Stormcast with a Hammerstrike slingshotted by a Vexillor (I put the delivery Prosecutors in an extreme corned away from everything, then use the Vexillor teleport to bounce them up, then drop the Hammerstrike).  There were 2 Thundertusk, 2 Stonehorn.  I decided to take out the Thundertusks first.  So dropped the Hammerstrike. Then I lobbed some wounds from my Venator and shot at the 2 Thundertusks with all my shooting (2 units of Judicators, 4 units of Prosecutors), then I charged each Tbundertusk with 1 unit of Paladins, 10 models each.  2 Thundertusks, gone.  Very  little difficulty.

As for the Stonehorns, I threw all my Prosecutors and Liberators into them as cannon fodder.  My only concern was keeping them from charging next turn.  It worked, and my Paladins came in and ground them down, too.

Concentrated fire.  Combination charges.  Thundertusks are actually pretty easy to kill.

If I can't guarantee their deaths, I just target something else and take their shots to the chin.

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Lol no


As a reference here are the result that you are dismissing:

Element Games Grand Slam was Double Kunnin' Rukk/Bonesplitterz

The SCGT 2017 was won by Chaos.

Heat 2 wasn't won by Destruction. It was Tomb kings, Sylvaneth and Stormcast.

The AoS GT Heat 1 was won by Thundertusks ... but there we're also a bunch of Moonclan grots. In the army as battleline.

Sheffield Slaughter 2017 was won by Order, with a good showing by Disciples of Tzeentch.

Alliance 2017 was won by Sylvaneth.

UK Masters 2016/17 was won by Tomb Kings.

Source: http://baddice.co.uk/lists/

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3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Because of how certain armies are designed MW's are a much needed mechanic. Have you tried facing tanky tree people ****** without spells? Short answer: you lose. Have you tried fighting other tanky armies? Like Stormcast or units that negate rend? You need MW..Tzeentch is on the extreme of the scale for spells, its not the standard. Its like Grey Knights or Tzeentch in 40k...lots of spell power but its not the norm...

Now on the flip side you might think you dont have enough MW's when facing mixed Death armies with a army wide save++ and with GH2017 Fyreslayers will be on the rise. Units of 30 Vulkies that negate evertying on a 4+ will be more common which spells and everything else just bounce off them. 

So if I were you...i would load up a changehost and load up more spells lol

this pretty much. 

do away with mortal wounds and certain armies just win when deployed... sounds like 8th WHFB ( wooo fun -_- ) 

 

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Like others have said, MW are a neccersary evil. I didn't play much 8th edition fantasy, but I played plenty of 7th editition 40k.

My 1850 pts Tau, fully buffed by marker-lights shot all of its shots (my riptides fired twice because of their abillity) into a beefed-up Wulfen unit led by Samael.

1850 pts of an army geared all around shooting, unloading *everything* it had. I caused 1 wound. I'm assuming 8th ed fantasy was similar. Hell, even AoS would be similar with stuff like beefed up Eternal saurus guard and stuff.  

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MW are fine in moderation. Having just two Thundertusks means you can do 28 Mortal Wounds one turn one. That's ****** ridiculous. 

Also to the guy saying he can guarantee killing a Thundertusk, great. Not all of us play SCE though. And making the game a "play one of these 5 armies or you lose" is not healthy to the game at all, since more people will quit to bad balancing than there are people buying one of those armies. 

Try playing Wanderers against a Thundertusk. Or a Sylvaneth list OTHER than Kurnoth/hurricanum spam. Tons of armies have no way to beat a Thundertusk list on deployment, so they are stuck going first, then Thundertusks run up and do 14mw. If they get double turn, the game is over. 

I can shoot a Thundertusk off the table in one turn as Wanderers if I'm lucky, and if I use my once-per-game abilities. But not before he's killed hundreds of points, usually crippling the synergy required to do damage after that. 

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1 hour ago, Tidings said:

 

Also to the guy saying he can guarantee killing a Thundertusk, great.

That's not actually what I said,  but that's okay.  It was largely meant more as a tongue in cheek barb than a separate avenue of the conversation anyway.

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Mortal wounds are just fine. Ive been playing with my Tzeentch against mostly Death and Nurgle armies for a long time now, and beleive me, they just laugh at my MW output with those 4+5+6+ double and triple wards. If your army is vulnerable to MW and you play in friendly non-powergaming group  - just add a ****** ton of terrain to block LoS.

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6 minutes ago, ssharkus said:

Mortal wounds are just fine. Ive been playing with my Tzeentch against mostly Death and Nurgle armies for a long time now, and beleive me, they just laugh at my MW output with those 4+5+6+ double and triple wards. If your army is vulnerable to MW and you play in friendly non-powergaming group  - just add a ****** ton of terrain to block LoS.

On the flip side I actually just watched a batrep on YouTube that was Tzeentch vs Nurgle. Spells killed the glottkin in one round lol

But yeah some units are just notorious for ME spam. Then some entire armies are as well...just wait till Clan Skyre get their allegiance abilities in 2 weeks. Then you'll wish you had the privilege to be against a TTusk spam list. Game over man, game over...

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20 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Just read all of the latest comments and the general consensus is that Mortal Wounds aren't killing the fun in themselves.  However armies that throw out A LOT of Mortal Wounds reliably are damaging the fun.

Absolutely, but the quantity isn't too much of a concern either, I think it's more the ease some Mortal wounds come with.

I personally do not dislike Mortal wounds but I do think that if they for example trigger on 6+ it would be better for the game to have them trigger only on a rolled 6 and not an accumulated 6, the latter is still quite common and as a result can cause a lot of Mortal wounds in particular situations.

All in all though I think some have a problem with the ease it comes with and probably rightly so. Directly thaking away armour saves removes a lot of the interaction and it's typical players don't like that for any 1 vs 1 game, AoS included.

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The 2 real problems with mortal wound output are Skyfires and Thundertusks. They have superior range and are either point and click or incredibly easy to buff to a state of almost point and click, especially with fate dice.

Nothing else is a problem mortal wound wise as nothing else can even compete with the range and ease of guaranteed damage these 2 units have. Everything else can either be chaffed up or be kept out of range. Give it 2 weeks for GHB2 to drop and I'm sure the culprits will be reigned in.

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3 hours ago, Terry Pike said:

The 2 real problems with mortal wound output are Skyfires and Thundertusks. They have superior range and are either point and click or incredibly easy to buff to a state of almost point and click, especially with fate dice.

Nothing else is a problem mortal wound wise as nothing else can even compete with the range and ease of guaranteed damage these 2 units have. Everything else can either be chaffed up or be kept out of range. Give it 2 weeks for GHB2 to drop and I'm sure the culprits will be reigned in.

I totally agree mate!

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Acolytes will have a points drop due to the free points for everyone update with hordes.  I dont think it'll make much of a difference for them though.  The skyfires are rated "A" in efficiency on my site which puts them at the top 10% in terms of amount of damage per meager amount of points paid, so yes they need to be brought up in points significantly.
However my gut feeling is if they are brought up by as much as they need to be to bring htem in the "C" range for efficiency (the middle of the bell curve where all efficiency scores would be in a balanced environment), that you'll stop seeing them in tournaments.

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1 hour ago, Auticus said:

Acolytes will have a points drop due to the free points for everyone update with hordes.  I dont think it'll make much of a difference for them though.  The skyfires are rated "A" in efficiency on my site which puts them at the top 10% in terms of amount of damage per meager amount of points paid, so yes they need to be brought up in points significantly.

However my gut feeling is if they are brought up by as much as they need to be to bring htem in the "C" range for efficiency (the middle of the bell curve where all efficiency scores would be in a balanced environment), that you'll stop seeing them in tournaments.

Well im hoping the get a points drop then the discounts. But also if the Skyfires go up too much then no one will take them anymore. Or at least only one unit of 3 for hero sniping.

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Yeah that also depends on if there are battalions involved. A lot of the Beastclaw and nearly half of the Tzeentch ones require those units...so people might get forced to use them still even with the increase...there will be a lot of crazy lists after 2 weeks

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So the list that won SCGT looks VERY heavy on mortal wounds, literally just contains Skyfires, Bloodletters and Stormfiends with a few buff characters. This is really driving me off AoS as a tournament game. It's simply not an enjoyable mechanic to be spammed the way it is. Ironically enough 40k seems to have done a much better job of reducing the chance of mortal wound spam killing your game, mostly by limiting your ability to shoot in combat, need to target closest unit if your character is few on wounds or my favourite, big things have more than enough wounds to cope with a reasonable amount of focused MWs. This is just my feelings around the game, but until the letter bomb and ranged MW spam is reduced, I'll always be forced to write a min-max list myself to counter for it, which will make all of my other games less enjoyable for me and my opponent (which I care about also). To me these need either point adjustments or scroll re-writes.

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40 minutes ago, jamierk said:

So the list that won SCGT looks VERY heavy on mortal wounds, literally just contains Skyfires, Bloodletters and Stormfiends with a few buff characters. This is really driving me off AoS as a tournament game. It's simply not an enjoyable mechanic to be spammed the way it is. Ironically enough 40k seems to have done a much better job of reducing the chance of mortal wound spam killing your game, mostly by limiting your ability to shoot in combat, need to target closest unit if your character is few on wounds or my favourite, big things have more than enough wounds to cope with a reasonable amount of focused MWs. This is just my feelings around the game, but until the letter bomb and ranged MW spam is reduced, I'll always be forced to write a min-max list myself to counter for it, which will make all of my other games less enjoyable for me and my opponent (which I care about also). To me these need either point adjustments or scroll re-writes.

And still the mortal wounds are spammed in 40k (by for example cheap psykers like weirdboyz or ig psykers). It's a powerful mechanic and smite seems to be still in the top end of weapons in the game by reliable damage output. They are much rarer on that side of fence, which also explains the difference.

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Thanks again for all your valuable input. With the GHB round the corner, we're pretty excited to Test the new point values. One thing I've taken away was regarding the ease of dealing mortal wounds so I will no longer use destiny dice for any MW damage roll as this seems to be some concensus already.

Maybe such small things might help already.

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