Nagash - will he become viable?

[Kosmion]

so with the news covering some of the death stuff in GHB17 some week ago we saw that Nagash along with pretty much all other death lords units have had their pts costs lowered. he's down to 800 now, do you think this is enough to make him worth fielding? is there any chance for a rework of his war scroll, or to summoning perhaps?

whats your take on this guys?

[EasyArmy]

Is each spell only allowed to be cast once in GHB17? If that particular rule was changed Nagash's ability to cast eight spell initially would be very powerful, regardless of changes to summoning.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

1 hour ago, EasyArmy said:

Is each spell only allowed to be cast once in GHB17? If that particular rule was changed Nagash's ability to cast eight spell initially would be very powerful, regardless of changes to summoning.

Regardless of the "Rule of 1" for each spell being cast only once... having a bonus to spellcasting is strong with 8 spells because it allows you to have a massive reserve pool to summon what is needed, up to 18" away, considering most Death units can be summoned anyways.  Just deploy your Nagash with your large units of chaff and attempt to seize the initiative, and summon away... this is great for things you run as MSU like morghasts with their 3d6 roll into a 1st turn charge while being able to keep that bubble wrap.

[Gotrek]

1 hour ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Regardless of the "Rule of 1" for each spell being cast only once... having a bonus to spellcasting is strong with 8 spells because it allows you to have a massive reserve pool to summon what is needed, up to 18" away, considering most Death units can be summoned anyways.  Just deploy your Nagash with your large units of chaff and attempt to seize the initiative, and summon away... this is great for things you run as MSU like morghasts with their 3d6 roll into a 1st turn charge while being able to keep that bubble wrap.

Except you're wrong. Most of our units CANT be summoned. And lets be honest, we can lie and say we can summon to counter the enemys strategy but honestly,  anything thats not a morghast or mournghoul is just handing VPs over to the enemy (unless youre nagash). Lets run down what can be summoned via spells:

Morghast archai

Morghast harbringers

Black knights 

Grave guard 

Skeletons 

Dire wolves

Zombies

Mournghoul

Wraith

Hexwraiths

Banshee

Spirit hosts

Bat swarms

Fell bats

14 total units can be summoned via magic. 

For comparison, 6 units can only be summoned via command ability (which are spread across the 3 incarnations of the ghoul king) and 16 units  (not counting the mortarchs and nagash) can't be summoned at all.

[Squirrelmaster]

In any case, the underlying problem with Nagash remains: If you use him for summoning, you end up with only half an army on the table. Sure, you can tailor to you opponent and the scenario, sure you can summon half-way across the table turn 1, but I'd rather have a 2000pt fixed-list army in my deployment zone turn 1 than a 1000pt tailored list 9" from the enemy on turn 1.

His command ability is powerful, but right now it loses out to Ruler of the Night.

Otherwise, it's really hard to get anything out of those 8 spell slots. Neither of his 2 signature spells are actually that great, so you pretty much need to take a bunch of Tomb King units for him to heal/resurrect. Even then, you're not using all 8 slots, and I can't see him really being competitive.

At 900pts, he's already viable in games of 3000pts+ (pretty much a must-have once you get up to 5000pts), but most players aren't playing on that kind of scale. Dropping him to 800pts helps a little, but if nothing else has changed I'd still consider him non-viable in 2000pts. He'd need to be closer to 600pts to be worth it imo.

On the other hand, it sounds like the new GH is going to add new artefacts, command traits, etc. — if we get new spells for Death, I can easily see Nagash being viable, or even overpowered, at 800pts. It would depend on the spells, though.

[lare2]

6 hours ago, Gotrek said:

Except you're wrong. Most of our units CANT be summoned. And lets be honest, we can lie and say we can summon to counter the enemys strategy but honestly,  anything thats not a morghast or mournghoul is just handing VPs over to the enemy (unless youre nagash). Lets run down what can be summoned via spells:

Morghast archai

Morghast harbringers

Black knights 

Grave guard 

Skeletons 

Dire wolves

Zombies

Mournghoul

Wraith

Hexwraiths

Banshee

Spirit hosts

Bat swarms

Fell bats

14 total units can be summoned via magic. 

For comparison, 6 units can only be summoned via command ability (which are spread across the 3 incarnations of the ghoul king) and 16 units  (not counting the mortarchs and nagash) can't be summoned at all.

Not to be picky but you forgot zombie dragons and terrorgheists.

[Countmoore]

11 hours ago, Kosmion said:

so with the news covering some of the death stuff in GHB17 some week ago we saw that Nagash along with pretty much all other death lords units have had their pts costs lowered. he's down to 800 now, do you think this is enough to make him worth fielding? is there any chance for a rework of his war scroll, or to summoning perhaps?

whats your take on this guys?

Firstly I want to say that Nagash is viable now! I've had loads of success with him in tournament play. 

Giving him access to more spells can only make him better though. My current list is 140 points cheaper just from the drop in points to Nagash and the Harbingers which will only give more flexibility. I'm just hoping Count Mannfred (horse version) and Isabelle remain as they really add to his repertoire nicely. 

[Kosmion]

Yeah i think once deathlords/GA death or whatever gets their own spell lore he would become pretty scary

[Tizianolol]

Immagine : nagash 800

2 archai :220

2 archai :220

2 archai: 220 

summon :540

you can summon 6 spirit hosts 240

and 2 morghast with 3d6 charge if you wanna be aggressive:)

[Gotrek]

9 hours ago, lare2 said:

Not to be picky but you forgot zombie dragons and terrorgheists.

Newest warscrolls (from FEC) dont have a summon option. So i stand by my statement.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

18 hours ago, Gotrek said:

Except you're wrong. Most of our units CANT be summoned. And lets be honest, we can lie and say we can summon to counter the enemys strategy but honestly,  anything thats not a morghast or mournghoul is just handing VPs over to the enemy (unless youre nagash). Lets run down what can be summoned via spells:

Morghast archai

Morghast harbringers

Black knights 

Grave guard 

Skeletons 

Dire wolves

Zombies

Mournghoul

Wraith

Hexwraiths

Banshee

Spirit hosts

Bat swarms

Fell bats

14 total units can be summoned via magic. 

For comparison, 6 units can only be summoned via command ability (which are spread across the 3 incarnations of the ghoul king) and 16 units  (not counting the mortarchs and nagash) can't be summoned at all.

Considering on the GW site there are 17 "UNITS" available (barring some that aren't available) for DEATH, I'd say that over half are summonable, which is technically "MOST" as I said.  No need to be an edgelord about it.

[Gotrek]

5 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Considering on the GW site there are 17 "UNITS" available (barring some that aren't available) for DEATH, I'd say that over half are summonable, which is technically "MOST" as I said.  No need to be an edgelord about it.

What im saying isnt edgy. Its truth. Sure, you can call it a technicality but at the end of the day over half of the death models you can buy cant be summoned with magic. Nagash (and to a much lesser extent, arkhan) is the only way to summon models (mournghoul and morghasts excluded) in the amount needed to actually accomplish something other than a last turn objective contester.

Depending on what the rest of death's points look like nagash summoning lists might be good, but him and arkhan are the only ones who can do it at all. Summoning a group of 10 zombies or skeletons a turn wont do anything other than slightly irritate your opponent. Dogs, bats, and ghosts arent any better.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

1 hour ago, Gotrek said:

What im saying isnt edgy. Its truth. Sure, you can call it a technicality but at the end of the day over half of the death models you can buy cant be summoned with magic. Nagash (and to a much lesser extent, arkhan) is the only way to summon models (mournghoul and morghasts excluded) in the amount needed to actually accomplish something other than a last turn objective contester.

Depending on what the rest of death's points look like nagash summoning lists might be good, but him and arkhan are the only ones who can do it at all. Summoning a group of 10 zombies or skeletons a turn wont do anything other than slightly irritate your opponent. Dogs, bats, and ghosts arent any better.

You're griping because you can't summon heroes and other wizards?  Alright... 

[Sedraxis]

10 minutes ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

You're griping because you can't summon heroes and other wizards?  Alright... 

He's talking about small units of basic troops. If you could summon a unit of 40 skeletons/zombies and other bigger groups, summoning as a whole would actually be worth building around.

[Squirrelmaster]

@Tizianolol I'm imagining it, and frankly it doesn't scare me. Morghast are okay, but they're still pretty fragile and don't hit very hard for their points cost. They're moderately fast and do well against heavily-armoured opponents, but that's about it. It's a hit-and-miss army that will do well in some match-ups, but overall I wouldn't rate it too highly.

[Sception]

I agree summoning is mostly shrugworthy for most casters and most units, but summoning 20 zombies (which isn't that difficult a result to hit even with generic casters and a few casting buffs) can be worthwhile, mostly for their ability to add onto existing units.  Plonking down a new unit of 20 skeletons won't do much besides contest an objective, but bumping a unit of 20 zombies back up to 40 can.  It's why I'd rather see undead summoning replaced with healing generally - works within the matched play restrictions, actually does something on the table without being as overwhelming as summoning could be before the matched play rules, etc.

As for Nagash, I don't think the points changes will do much for him unless the rules of three or summoning restrictions are changed in some way.  Otherwise, the only thing that will really budge him in matched play is the introduction of additional spells to crib from.  It's part of why I was hoping for alliance level spell lores in the new handbook, and why I'm very disappointed that they don't seem to be there, to the point that I'm basically boxing up my undead till something meaningful changes in this game for us.

[Oppenheimer]

Keep in mind that Nagash summons 2x the number of models with every cast so summoning 20 zombies now becomes a very intimidating 40 and 2 Harbingers becomes 4. 

Even so I think Nagash will only truly come into his own once we get a lore of death of some sort that he can use his 8 spells on.

I like him though so I'll probably still take him sometimes just for fluffy fun reasons.

[deynon]

 

On 10/8/2017 at 11:52 PM, Gotrek said:

Newest warscrolls (from FEC) dont have a summon option. So i stand by my statement.

The GA:D are still valid, both FAQ and AoS app say so. The models have points. If you deploy them you declare wich ones are in the rooster , if you summon only the GA:D ones are summonable.

Your statement is invalid

[Gotrek]

11 minutes ago, deynon said:

 

The GA:D are still valid, both FAQ and AoS app say so. The models have points. If you deploy them you declare wich ones are in the rooster , if you summon only the GA:D ones are summonable.

Your statement is invalid

Have fun trying to do that at a tournament.

[deynon]

7 hours ago, Gotrek said:

Have fun trying to do that at a tournament.

the rules give me reason. The organizers have to be more serious when redacting the rules of the TO and òoor them if they do so cause usually I don't take the rules too strict but I can always change mind.

There is a FAQ about and the official AoS app gives me the points for both the versions. The organizers can make HR but they have to declare them clearly, it's a pity they don't have the means

[Marc Wilson]

I think Nagash at 800 points is really interesting and who knows what other treats are in store for Death in GHB2. With board control absolutely vital, the ability to deny an opponent space to perform shenanigans in can be really powerful. A low drop Nagash army can really put an opponent under all sorts of pressure to be able to contend objectives. @Countmoore Has probably played Nagash more than any other player.

Hopefully this topic can run nicely and not be sidelined with unduly abrasive comments.

[TerrorPenguin]

Thing is, at the minute he's a 4 drop minimum (him and 3x battleline). I suppose you could take him and legion of death (and please lets not debate whether that's 'legal' or not again) for two drops but it's not really what you want to be doing with him. Many armies will be able to out deploy you and take first turn. 

Now if there was a 'shambling horde' battalion which was a necromancer and 3 x units of zombies, suddenly you have first turn and a chance at getting your summoning off. 

I know other people use him well, but an army with him in can't be expected to go first all the time. 

[Marc Wilson]

You don't actually see that many one drop armies in all fairness - the fear of them is more prevelent than in actuality. It will be really nice to get a small flexible battalion in which Nagash can be taken though - hope that happens.

[Gotrek]

i doubt he'll get a battalion but at 800 points id be willing to play with him. though id have to actually buy some zombies to cheat my battleline. summon a block of 40 skeletons right in front of the enemy army could make them scared.

[Kosmion]

I hope im not just overly optimistic but- it feels like GW wouldnt just lower his points with 100 and call it a day. Theres gotta be something more in stores to make him more usable...right?