JD222 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 2 hours ago, DJMoose said: Temple Nest battalion went up 50pts. Going to be hard to fit a good Temple Nest into 1000pts games now. Which is ok, now I'll just have an excuse to have bigger Blood Sister units. ? What irks me is that they designed DoK with 2nd edition in mind, and then they made all our command abilities only usable by the general, and then raise the points costs on all of our battalions. When they want you to use all heroes and battalions this edition. Temple Nest is basically the only battalion I would want to use too; not a huge fan of the other ones. MAYBE shadow patrol if I ever felt like getting that many Heartrenders, as I already have the Warlocks. Any idea what the other battallion point changes are or is this the only one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirjava13 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 • Cauldron Guard: 120 • Temple Nest: 130 • Shadow Patrol: 130 • Shadowhammer Compact: 170 • Slaughter Troupe: 130 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMoose Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Kirjava13 said: • Cauldron Guard: 120 • Temple Nest: 130 • Shadow Patrol: 130 • Shadowhammer Compact: 170 • Slaughter Troupe: 130 I wasn't sure we could post actual point values. But yeah, only changes we had were battalions. Which isn't the end of the world. I'm just glad Blood Sisters didn't go up in points. I would have been ok with Blood Stalkers getting a price decrease. But hey, at least we're not Tzeentch! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Considering how many are saying they don't like stalkers I would have preferred to see some change to them. Whilst Daughters are very much a close combat force, having an elite ranged unit seems pretty important to me; something that can snipe something else off the table without having to be a spell nor khinari striking from the skies. Also has any one heard anything to confirm if the Blood coven is gone or not? 3rd party retailers seem to be getting stock in fairly frequently; whilst GW gave me a "well if its not on our website it might be gone" reply which kind of suggested that the person who answered either couldn't or didn't know for sure (I've seen things vanish for no reason and reappear before now so its not impossible that its removed for some odd reason like repackaging the rules insert or such) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarmofseals Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 I'm sure this has been covered in this thread before, but I'd like to revisit the topic of Sisters of Slaughter vs. Witch Aelves. This is one of those cases where my mathhammer really doesn't help that much. WA should be getting an extra attack most of the time while SS get 2" range and 6" pile in. Sisters are 1 point more per model as well. The differences here are really hard to quantify. What have you all found out from your game experience? Is the extra range and pile in useful enough to offset the one less attack and slightly higher cost? Do you like running a mix or all one or the other? Also I should be clear that I'm mostly talking about large units here. For small squads I'm pretty sure I'd roll with WA . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMoose Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 5 hours ago, Overread said: Considering how many are saying they don't like stalkers I would have preferred to see some change to them. Whilst Daughters are very much a close combat force, having an elite ranged unit seems pretty important to me; something that can snipe something else off the table without having to be a spell nor khinari striking from the skies. Can someone confirm for me how -1 to hit characters works with rolling 6s to hit making mortal wounds? IIRC, since a +1 to hit would make you get mortal wounds on a 5+, the opposite would be you cannot inflict mortal wounds on a 6 as it would technically become a 7+. I had good success using Blood Stalkers exclusively for character sniping, and they were rather good at it. But the -1 to hit characters now nerfs their mortal wound generation big time. I would have been ok with a points decrease, since if their bows had 2 attacks they might have become too good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecktron Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 2 hours ago, DJMoose said: Can someone confirm for me how -1 to hit characters works with rolling 6s to hit making mortal wounds? IIRC, since a +1 to hit would make you get mortal wounds on a 5+, the opposite would be you cannot inflict mortal wounds on a 6 as it would technically become a 7+. I had good success using Blood Stalkers exclusively for character sniping, and they were rather good at it. But the -1 to hit characters now nerfs their mortal wound generation big time. I would have been ok with a points decrease, since if their bows had 2 attacks they might have become too good. Yeah, Look out sir! Prevents Blood Stalkers from generating mw. Only certain abilities trigger on an unmodified roll (like the hearthpiercer shields) but they are worded differently than the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 6 hours ago, swarmofseals said: I'm sure this has been covered in this thread before, but I'd like to revisit the topic of Sisters of Slaughter vs. Witch Aelves. This is one of those cases where my mathhammer really doesn't help that much. WA should be getting an extra attack most of the time while SS get 2" range and 6" pile in. Sisters are 1 point more per model as well. The differences here are really hard to quantify. What have you all found out from your game experience? Is the extra range and pile in useful enough to offset the one less attack and slightly higher cost? Do you like running a mix or all one or the other? Also I should be clear that I'm mostly talking about large units here. For small squads I'm pretty sure I'd roll with WA . I really think one the 2.0 thread starts it would be good to take some discussions, like this, out into their own debate thread and then link it in the first post of the 2.0 thread as I can see it being a question that is raised over and over again. To my mind DoK have quite a few units which are very similar to each other, where the differences are very slight and can appear confusing to newer players as to what the exact role of the two units is and how they differ on the table top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ered Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Just want to confirm that both Slaughter and Hag Queens go on a 25 mm base and avatar and medusa on 40 mm base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucentia Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Hag/Slaughter Queens are on 32mm as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 supplied with a Citadel 120mm Oval base, a Citadel 40mm Round base and a Citadel 25mm Round base. From the UK GW website. So that would be the Hag/Slaughter Queens on a 25mm base as of now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucentia Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Huh, weird, they're definitely on 32 mm in the battletome pictures, though I suppose those aren't always necessarily accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 I think its an issue where GW changes base sizes (for reasons) but doesn't update their showcase models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Fortress_Immortal Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 On 6/22/2018 at 11:25 AM, DJMoose said: Temple Nest battalion went up 50pts. Going to be hard to fit a good Temple Nest into 1000pts games now. Which is ok, now I'll just have an excuse to have bigger Blood Sister units. ? What irks me is that they designed DoK with 2nd edition in mind, and then they made all our command abilities only usable by the general, and then raise the points costs on all of our battalions. When they want you to use all heroes and battalions this edition. Temple Nest is basically the only battalion I would want to use too; not a huge fan of the other ones. MAYBE shadow patrol if I ever felt like getting that many Heartrenders, as I already have the Warlocks. What irks me is that they designed DoK with 2nd edition in mind, and 3 months later, the points values are 50-100pts different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 I think they've basically approached it that they've added the points for the CP, which is an odd choice if you consider that they've added the CP to all the battalions so they didn't really need to increase the points value as they were of equal worth to each other. I wonder if this coupled with more artefacts and the endless spells might push game point values up a little to reflect it. If most armies have gained 2-400 points or so in cost just from adding battalions then upping the points value of games up by that much would let players put down as many models and the games take about the same length of time as they do currently. That said battalions have always felt a little bit of an overcosted idea to me, especially as they don't have to operate as a cohesive unit on the tabletop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InSaint Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Overread said: I think they've basically approached it that they've added the points for the CP, which is an odd choice if you consider that they've added the CP to all the battalions so they didn't really need to increase the points value as they were of equal worth to each other. I wonder if this coupled with more artefacts and the endless spells might push game point values up a little to reflect it. If most armies have gained 2-400 points or so in cost just from adding battalions then upping the points value of games up by that much would let players put down as many models and the games take about the same length of time as they do currently. That said battalions have always felt a little bit of an overcosted idea to me, especially as they don't have to operate as a cohesive unit on the tabletop Yeah I am still perplexed by the battalions mechanics. I think I may be overlooking something or does the community feels the same way? War Coven of Morathi - Don't know, maybe like in a 5000 points game? Cauldron Guard - Have to take 2 units that move+run+charge+delete anything in close-combat and forces us to take another 2 units of close-combat flying girls. Slaughter Troupe - Maybe if Sisters of Slaughter can throw their shields like Captain America and Slaughter Queen can throw her swords like Hela. Also what is the point of retreating when DoK are likely going to delete anything on the first round of combat. Temple Nest - Blood Stalkers. Shadow Patrol - No battleline. All can move 14", what is the point of deepstriking them? Oh wait you can also do this completely free for any unit with Khailebron Temple. Shadowhammer Compact - Only this battalion ability and unit composition looks ok to me. Not a Stormcast Player so I am not sure how efficient are the Stormcast pre-req units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 I can see them as GW' way to try and encourage army variety in building since most of them focus on using multiple groups of different kinds of units; and to try and make theme forces like Warmachine has. However GW has gone about it in an odd way by making the battalion itself come with a fairly significant point cost. Right now you're basically paying for a whole unit in cost or a battalion. To my mind its taking too many points out of a visual side of the game and putting it into a stat boost; that's fine we've had upgrades for years. But I can't help but shake the feeling, esp with Daughters of Khaine, that its cutting down on viable army builds and what you can take and put on the table. IT might be something that sorts itself out in time as the game gets more popular; much like how 40K armies of today have way more models than they did in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD222 Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 2 hours ago, InSaint said: Yeah I am still perplexed by the battalions mechanics. I think I may be overlooking something or does the community feels the same way? They are indeed not the greatest, definitely a missed opportunity, as if they had gotten them right I can guarantee more models would have been sold, myself included. With my Seraphon I would run at least one if not two batallions and they were fun, thematic and made sense for the troops that needed to be selected, or at least offered a variety. Giving an extra artefact, dropping everything in the battallion at once and now a command point make them still viable, but again here with DoK more unlikely to ever take one. 2 hours ago, InSaint said: War Coven of Morathi - Don't know, maybe like in a 5000 points game? This right here is so frustrating, other mega battalions can be pulled off for lots less than this. That's quite a bit of harpy tax! And then no battleshock and one round higher big deal, witch brew, items and prayers can get there too for free. 2 hours ago, InSaint said: Cauldron Guard - Have to take 2 units that move+run+charge+delete anything in close-combat and forces us to take another 2 units of close-combat flying girls. With Slaughter queen in bold key word which is good for this so can put on a cauldron or have her on foot but again this harpy tax is most frustrating why not just do the same and put the keyword and let you choose or would have been waaaaay better if it was choose 2 from either Melusai or Khinaeri, opening up 4 different t possibilities= me buying more models and maybe actually using this one. 2 hours ago, InSaint said: Slaughter Troupe - Maybe if Sisters of Slaughter can throw their shields like Captain America and Slaughter Queen can throw her swords like Hela. Also what is the point of retreating when DoK are likely going to delete anything on the first round of combat. Haha that would be amazing I want shield missile weapons! Not much besides some of the new scenarios have moving objectives so I suppose just to have the option to move around, but not much to move around if it's dead lol 2 hours ago, InSaint said: Temple Nest - Blood Stalkers. Ugh I want to like this one, and might have to bite the blood stalkers fee as will be great for my buddy's ironjawz where hes planning on stacking wagghhhhs to get 4-5 additional attacks which ends up being quite a bit of mortal wound back at him for his missed 1's to hit 2 hours ago, InSaint said: Shadow Patrol - No battleline. All can move 14", what is the point of deepstriking them? Oh wait you can also do this completely free for any unit with Khailebron Temple. This one is by far one of the worst, FOUR units of harpy? And out of the 6 units required for this 4 of them already start off the board, and you can only disappear one unit of the 6 at a time. Would bite at only 2 units harpy tax. 2 hours ago, InSaint said: Shadowhammer Compact - Only this battalion ability and unit composition looks ok to me. Not a Stormcast Player so I am not sure how efficient are the Stormcast pre-req units. This is the only one I was for sure going to use and started converting some stromcast into my Snakecast using dark elf bits, which look so good I can't believe it lol but now the price almost doubled and no bold keyword for slaughter queen so have to take her on foot which is a tax because I would still want one on a cauldron as my general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VorpalPoolNoodle Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 I'm most than a little cranky at the temple nest going up. It was the core of my army. My options now consist of: -Dropping my only hag queen -Dropping the nest and deal with having blood stalkers instead of blood sisters because I've already assembled the models. -Dropping a unit of witch aelves and using my bloodwrack as my general instead of Morathi, losing her great command ability. And 2/3 of those options include spending some manner of money to fill the points left by dropping the nest. Maybe if I could slot in the darkling covens sorceress I already own, but she also went up 20 points. Blood stalkers should have dropped 20 points to begin with. But charging for the added command points is just dumb. It was a blanket change to all battalions. It evens out. But instead I get an army I just bought and haven't even gotten fully assembled totally blown up. Designed with 2.0 in mind my posterior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 As I said if every faction basically has several hundred points of battleline point tax the games base point limit can go up and it should even things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VorpalPoolNoodle Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Overread said: As I said if every faction basically has several hundred points of battleline point tax the games base point limit can go up and it should even things out. Which is cool and all but that still means I'll need to spend more money to fix my army for the sake of an arbitrary 50 point increase. Not that I wouldn't like to add a unit of warlocks to my army, for example. It was just previously unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMoose Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 I know the big thing many people are concerned about is summoning now being free in points, with other ways to summon units in now. As it is now, I do not think Order has much on the way of summoning. I hope they touch on Malieron's elves and other creatures from Ulgu. That would be some cool stuff to summon for DoK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD222 Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 9 minutes ago, DJMoose said: I know the big thing many people are concerned about is summoning now being free in points, with other ways to summon units in now. As it is now, I do not think Order has much on the way of summoning. I hope they touch on Malieron's elves and other creatures from Ulgu. That would be some cool stuff to summon for DoK. Bring on Malerions faction indeed, still perplexed and frustrated with buying silver tower for the two aelf models and yet still cannot use them as allies. Why the generic keyword Aelf, that nothing has as allies? Even at the time lots of references to the tenebrael shard looking like a Male witch aelf, so figured he would have been a good hero to add in to DoK, and also thought mistweaver could have been deepkin or something. Hoping when Malerion does launch will explain or at least tie in these two models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD222 Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 Random thought after seeing the two new boxes of endless spells that are faction specific, wonder if DoK and Idoneth could be next considering they have said both were done with the new edition in mind. Would be sweet, and I could imagine awesome spells like a tidal wave of blood, or even Morathis "mother of all cauldrons the mathcoir" as per the battletome would be EPIC Thoughts? Wishlist of possible spells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMoose Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 3 hours ago, JD222 said: Random thought after seeing the two new boxes of endless spells that are faction specific, wonder if DoK and Idoneth could be next considering they have said both were done with the new edition in mind. Would be sweet, and I could imagine awesome spells like a tidal wave of blood, or even Morathis "mother of all cauldrons the mathcoir" as per the battletome would be EPIC Thoughts? Wishlist of possible spells? Morathi's cauldron would be awesome, but fluffwise I think she would keep it safe and hidden. I think there is a ton of potential with shadow magic or creatures from Ulgu. A wave a boiling blood would be awesome, though. Actually, a summonable Avatar of Khaine would be pretty awesome as well; I might actually use it by itself then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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