Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[Nico]

Do you really want to bring that list? Could it be more boring? Quadruple stacking ward saves. They will have to amend the FAQ for this going forward like they did for Nagash plus Kemmler plus 4 Tomb Heralds.

[BURF1]

19 minutes ago, Nico said:

Do you really want to bring that list? Could it be more boring? Quadruple stacking ward saves. They will have to amend the FAQ for this going forward like they did for Nagash plus Kemmler plus 4 Tomb Heralds.

That list is also dealing with the whole 'Doomfires die turn 1 even through blood shield and stormcasts grind you off slowly over 5 turns' problem.

[James Ramsay]

17 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

That list is also dealing with the whole 'Doomfires die turn 1 even through blood shield and stormcasts grind you off slowly over 5 turns' problem.

I've found the doomfires surprisingly resilient, if you can stick them in cover (admittedly harder with the new faq) and with 4x6++ wards, its the equivalent of a 4++ save. Even without cover a unit of 5 have to take on average 23.2 wounds to die which is fairly hard to do from range even with 2-3 units of judicators.

Haven't found the grind too bad either. Looking forward to being proven wrong though!

38 minutes ago, Nico said:

Do you really want to bring that list? Could it be more boring? Quadruple stacking ward saves. They will have to amend the FAQ for this going forward like they did for Nagash plus Kemmler plus 4 Tomb Heralds.

No worse than kunnin rukk, mass skyfires, changehost and the like in my eyes, its defensively very solid but not the strongest offensively...good vs hordes though!  GHB 2017 gave daughters a good points break and I want to use a pure allegiance army but not go full ridiculous horde as will time out with anymore than 90 elves I've found. 

[Nico]

"No worse than kunnin rukk, mass skyfires, changehost and the like in my eyes, its defensively very solid but not the strongest offensively...good vs hordes though!" These have actual counters albeit rare. Absorbing 80% of all damage on 90 models plus the buff givers is absurd. Only objectives being numerous and spread out gives anyone a chance. Imagine playing this on Knife to the Heart.

 

[Nico]

How have they not seen this coming? Witch Aelves were a bit overcosted, but 30 reduced from 560 to 270 is a joke.

Congratulations you've broken the meta. Sigh.

[James Ramsay]

41 minutes ago, Nico said:

"No worse than kunnin rukk, mass skyfires, changehost and the like in my eyes, its defensively very solid but not the strongest offensively...good vs hordes though!" These have actual counters albeit rare. Absorbing 80% of all damage on 90 models plus the buff givers is absurd. Only objectives being numerous and spread out gives anyone a chance. Imagine playing this on Knife to the Heart.

 

Yeah it's a tough defensively but it's got plenty of weaknesses.

Could have taken 120 elfs I think that's the better build but as I said time is a problem and I don't want to time anyone out.

15 minutes ago, Nico said:

How have they not seen this coming? Witch Aelves were a bit overcosted, but 30 reduced from 560 to 270 is a joke.

Congratulations you've broken the meta. Sigh.

They have been massively reduced in price, was the first army I wanted to try out when I saw the change. 

This is why I commented that I think they are one the most improved factions in ghb17

 

[Siegfried VII]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

How have they not seen this coming? Witch Aelves were a bit overcosted, but 30 reduced from 560 to 270 is a joke.

Congratulations you've broken the meta. Sigh.

They were 420 for 30 of them, not 560, so they got an 150 discount for a 30 girl unit. The lowering of points cost was very much needed.

Now the stacking blood shields is a bit op but this in my opinion is not a good list for a tourney as it will struggle with objectives because you can't possibly have the whole army going together for the full battle and it will struggle versus armies who will have superior armor.

Regarding what you said about it being a boring list I will agree as I find lists that spam certain units very boring in general. I believe that it is much more rewarding and interesting to win with combined arms armies that require more thought in order to prevail. In the end though it is a matter of opinion and playstyle one wants to use.

I believe that James will see for himself if it is good fun for him to use such an army. 

I for now am building my own Cauldron and curse the fact that it is a very tough model to get your brush around and paint where you must...

[James Ramsay]

4 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

They were 420 for 30 of them, not 560, so they got an 150 discount for a 30 girl unit. The lowering of points cost was very much needed.

Now the stacking blood shields is a bit op but this in my opinion is not a good list for a tourney as it will struggle with objectives because you can't possibly have the whole army going together for the full battle and it will struggle versus armies who will have superior armor.

Regarding what you said about it being a boring list I will agree as I find lists that spam certain units very boring in general. I believe that it is much more rewarding and interesting to win with combined arms armies that require more thought in order to prevail. In the end though it is a matter of opinion and playstyle one wants to use.

I believe that James will see for himself if it is good fun for him to use such an army. 

I for now am building my own Cauldron and curse the fact that it is a very tough model to get your brush around and paint where you must...

For sure it is not the best list - there are a few tricks with regards to how spread it can be but definitely there are weaknesses there. High armour is a huge issue and theres nothing really I can do about it. 

I didn't really want to ally - I am desperate to keep the daughters allegiance and don't have any other dark elf or stormcast stuff so decided to stick to mono daughters - it means its one dimensional yep. Could have included some Medusas but ran out of points as I prefer doomfire locks. I've found 4 cauldrons and 90 elves the core which works for me. I find it fun to play, and have used other hordes that I also find fun to play like slayers and beastmen. 

Painting those things is horrible! 

[Nico]

Sylvaneth can pin you in place with the TLA and Household, but that's not very common now.

[James Ramsay]

38 minutes ago, Nico said:

Sylvaneth can pin you in place with the TLA and Household, but that's not very common now.

Yep not easy to deal with!

[someone2040]

7 hours ago, Nico said:

How have they not seen this coming? Witch Aelves were a bit overcosted, but 30 reduced from 560 to 270 is a joke.

Congratulations you've broken the meta. Sigh.

Possibly the designers didn't/don't realise that the Cauldron stacks.

Overall, if it's something that is being abused, well, it'll be errated/nerfed at some point. So just a word of caution for people abusing stacking abilities, if it gets on GW's radar it'll be destroyed for sure.

[Paul Buckler]

15 hours ago, Nico said:

Do you really want to bring that list? Could it be more boring? Quadruple stacking ward saves. They will have to amend the FAQ for this going forward like they did for Nagash plus Kemmler plus 4 Tomb Heralds.

It is gonna be practically impossible to get 4 on anything but cauldrons, as getting  many models within range of all 4 is nearly impossible.  I ran 3 ages ago when my formation got nerfed to see how they could tank stuff, was only 2 saves max most of the time due to space.  you just can't spread out enough, so 2 or 3 of the missions will be really hard work.

[Nico]

It's more for the first Battleround where you ignore 80% of the damage. You only need like 4-5models from each 30 to be in range of all 4 to survive a lot of damage. After that you spam Battleshock immunity and then split into two pairs of Cauldrons perhaps - still utterly horrendous. It's James's tournament to win.

[Paul Buckler]

9 minutes ago, Nico said:

It's more for the first Battleround where you ignore 80% of the damage. You only need like 4-5models from each 30 to be in range of all 4 to survive a lot of damage. After that you spam Battleshock immunity and then split into two pairs of Cauldrons perhaps - still utterly horrendous. It's James's tournament to win.

 

Def Round 1 will be nothing major, but then its a case of splitting up in several scearios to achieve anything.  Stardrakes or TLA are just gonna tank them out of the game while the rest of your army does the biz.  Things that specify which models taking wounds also hurt it (cavernous jaws etc).  Not great but potentially chips away.  It sounds really good and it is,but balancing staying within multiples is a lot trickier.  (Khorne guys dragging you away with prayers are great! Or just 1 unit failing a mystical can stall you.  Decent terrain will also help funnel and make it tricky to get more than 2)

Very good list, but I think there are counters, James has a really good chance of a podium and is def looking at top 10 100%.

 

[James Ramsay]

Also remember i'm a 40ker really, and very inexperienced at AOS so all this talk of placing etc is wildly inaccurate! I'm going to have a laugh and have been wanting to do this list since I saw the rules last GHB, just had to wait for the price reduction. Hopefully its a bit different.

There are plenty of counters! I wish I had access to all the stormcast stuff but I dont as that would really help with the weaknesses vs say doomfire warlocks.

[Nevvermore]

I don't think there's any point in buying multiple Cauldrons, there's basically a 99,9% chance they'll be FAQed to not stack next time around going by the latest one. And that might be next week for all we know, with how fast GW are these days. You'll just be bitter about doing all that painting for nothing.

[Kramer]

51 minutes ago, Nevvermore said:

I don't think there's any point in buying multiple Cauldrons, there's basically a 99,9% chance they'll be FAQed to not stack next time around going by the latest one. And that might be next week for all we know, with how fast GW are these days. You'll just be bitter about doing all that painting for nothing.

Might not be stackable. But with 3 big blobs of witches, it will be nice to buff multiple units even if you can't stack the buffs on one. Also acts as a back up for your synergie. If you only take one... you'll most likely loose your synergie turn one against a bit of shooting. 

[BURF1]

4 hours ago, Kramer said:

Might not be stackable. But with 3 big blobs of witches, it will be nice to buff multiple units even if you can't stack the buffs on one. Also acts as a back up for your synergie. If you only take one... you'll most likely loose your synergie turn one against a bit of shooting. 

Agreed, even if they get FAQed taking 2 will still be basically mandatory for coverage, redundancy, and witchbrews if nothing else. If they do get FAQed Sisters of Slaughter become much more compelling which is nice.

[Payce]

On 1.9.2017 at 9:48 AM, Nico said:

It's more for the first Battleround where you ignore 80% of the damage. You only need like 4-5models from each 30 to be in range of all 4 to survive a lot of damage. After that you spam Battleshock immunity and then split into two pairs of Cauldrons perhaps - still utterly horrendous. It's James's tournament to win.

Yeah, I mean, Terry Pike's Murderhost with 90 Bloodletters and 60 Plaguebearers sounds that much more fun, right? I bet these two armies pitted against each other is going to be such a crowd pleaser.

Sure, Cauldron stacking is extreme. It's also tournament play. This whole advocating of handicapping yourself to play a sup-optimal setup because it's "unfun" or "fair" has nothing to do with competitive play at the highest end, which this is. There's a very significant difference between playing to win and playing to have fun. My own Daughters will only use two Cauldrons for the most part, making me far less competitive, but also making my game club nights more enjoyable for both me and my opponent.

There's enough drawback in James' list that the defensive capacity alone won't win him games. He needs to position well, control the table sufficiently and be able to deal with high-armour threats efficiently, which requires careful strategic positioning, keeping the Warlocks alive, and tarpitting the witches in the right place at the right time. Inexperienced players will have zero success with this list, because in spite of your chanting it's "brokenness" it's actually a difficult army to actually wield.

[James Ramsay]

As an update, I came 14th out of 80ish, ran into a stardrake unfortunately on the new places of power mission and couldnt kill it, my doomfires were useless, didnt cast a spell until turn 4 due to poor rolls! Was a great event, the list is bonkers with 4 shields, can expect a nerf soon I guess. No one else I played really touched me won 4 and lost 1 as mentioned. Had to play really hard with the positioning, with time pressure its intense and you have to roll so many dice so was playing as fast as physically possible and every game came down to 10-15 minutes left. 

[Siegfried VII]

47 minutes ago, James Ramsay said:

As an update, I came 14th out of 80ish, ran into a stardrake unfortunately on the new places of power mission and couldnt kill it, my doomfires were useless, didnt cast a spell until turn 4 due to poor rolls! Was a great event, the list is bonkers with 4 shields, can expect a nerf soon I guess. No one else I played really touched me won 4 and lost 1 as mentioned. Had to play really hard with the positioning, with time pressure its intense and you have to roll so many dice so was playing as fast as physically possible and every game came down to 10-15 minutes left. 

Well we have already discussed that high save armies would pose a problem, so it was expected you would hit a roadblock in one of the battles. Still it is a very nice placing among so many oponnents.

What other armies did you face?

[James Ramsay]

1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

Well we have already discussed that high save armies would pose a problem, so it was expected you would hit a roadblock in one of the battles. Still it is a very nice placing among so many oponnents.

What other armies did you face?

Tzeentch twice, mixed death, mixed chaos with heavy letters. 

The drake is only an issue on duality of death and of course I drew it on that map and he went first. Not a lot I could do. I tried to mortal him with my warlocks all game and did 5 wounds with doombolt/arcane each turn. Was bad news.

[BURF1]

 

7 hours ago, James Ramsay said:

As an update, I came 14th out of 80ish, ran into a stardrake unfortunately on the new places of power mission and couldnt kill it, my doomfires were useless, didnt cast a spell until turn 4 due to poor rolls! Was a great event, the list is bonkers with 4 shields, can expect a nerf soon I guess. No one else I played really touched me won 4 and lost 1 as mentioned. Had to play really hard with the positioning, with time pressure its intense and you have to roll so many dice so was playing as fast as physically possible and every game came down to 10-15 minutes left. 

This actually alludes to another problem with the list in the long run, attacking  a Dracoth with the Castellant buff(which is silly anyway) is basically an easy way to guarantee you run out of time. For anyone who doesn't know, when using a Castellant buff on a unit if you roll the saves in groups you apply heals first and then damage, which means if you just roll out 120 saves or whatever, you're still probably going to lose some wounds even through a 2+ rerollable. SO it is entirely within that players right to roll out each save individually and can't even be considered slow playing as it is technically the 'correct' way to resolve the damage.

 

TL:DR; Don't bother resolving attacks against anything with a Castellant 2+ reroll, it's more important to finish the game.

[James Ramsay]

We had plenty of time, my witches were just killing the rest of his army to get maximum VPs as I knew I had lost from turn 1 most likely as my doomfires started with both failing to cast. VPs are used as tiebreak so were important.

Don't know if I would change the list, it is definitely top tier and can play anyone - the save mechanic is very very powerful and the witches are absolutely deadly in combat but the list is slow and has bad matches so I don't feel its overpowered compared to tzeentch/rukk/letter bomb/seraphon etc all the usual suspects. 

Can drop 30 witches and a hag for celestant prime to help with mortal issue which is excellent in some matches, but in some games I was only left with 30-40 witches so 90 was perfect. They blended everything (bar the drake) and spread across the entire board.

Also just to say 4 cauldrons are essential if doing this list competitively IMO and they aren't nerfed. The extra +1 wound and save are well worth it and makes the other cauldrons a really unappealing target. Damned buff and 2 stacks of khaines fury plus double pile in means you kill everything haha.

[AlexHarrison]

On 31/08/2017 at 5:29 PM, Nico said:

Do you really want to bring that list? Could it be more boring? Quadruple stacking ward saves. They will have to amend the FAQ for this going forward like they did for Nagash plus Kemmler plus 4 Tomb Heralds.

No offence mate but don't you think thats a bit of an immature response? People write lists on what is available to use and there have been time and time again, numerous "Broken" combo's written by the GT team, albeit nerfed eventually (only recently, before thye have been left for years).

As previously mentioned, this is no different to Sayl bombs or teleporting lizards with re-roll saves, or Fyreslayers with re-roll mortal wound saves. The game became a shooting fest with Kunnin-rukk, then I joined the scene with a mixed order gunline. People complained about the ridiculousness of firepower and shooting into combat. Now we see ridiculously (broken) durable armies and people will still complain because gunlines or mortal wound spamming armies cannot sit back and remove them. Instead of blaming the player for taking the army (plenty of players have taken armies under the context they are broken) blame the system. Fundamentally, the same could be said for certain warscrolls and armies still but its a tournament, expect hard lists and build your own list accordingly. When I moved to play AOS from 40k, the idea of first turn charges absolutely baffled me, yet it happens. In 40k 7th Ed we had armies with a 2+ re rollable mortal save which was the norm. You had to build your army to counter it. Now a new durable army with NO shooting has arrived, you now need to build accordingly (with your own durable unit to hold them up perhaps?)

Excuse the rant, not meaning to be cynical, just had to vent when I see people blaming others for using a strong build haha.

Gratz to James for a strong performance with what was once a weak army.