Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[Twitch of Izalith]

3 hours ago, Lucentia said:

they could go the Lord of Afflictions route and have a hero option in the lamia/harpy box I guess.

I find it quite annoying when they do this though it would be worth it for the extra warscroll.

I had to get a full box 3 of horrors/flayers so I could make a horror courtier and flayer coutier and now I have this one spare model. I spose the cost worked out about the same as 2 clampacks anyway but its still kinda annoying.It would be worse if there is only one character build in the box - particularly if you are right about them coming in 5's!

[zedatkinszed]

30 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

I find it quite annoying when they do this though it would be worth it for the extra warscroll.

I had to get a full box 3 of horrors/flayers so I could make a horror courtier and flayer coutier and now I have this one spare model. I spose the cost worked out about the same as 2 clampacks anyway but its still kinda annoying.It would be worse if there is only one character build in the box - particularly if you are right about them coming in 5's!

Yes, and besides everything else, I want to see a DoK hero in WHQ  Unless we get a clam pack Hag or Preiestess or Medusa or whatever we wont have any representation in games like that  So here's hoping we get another Hero or a repack or both.

[Lucentia]

1 hour ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

I find it quite annoying when they do this though it would be worth it for the extra warscroll.

I had to get a full box 3 of horrors/flayers so I could make a horror courtier and flayer coutier and now I have this one spare model. I spose the cost worked out about the same as 2 clampacks anyway but its still kinda annoying.It would be worse if there is only one character build in the box - particularly if you are right about them coming in 5's!

Oh I agree, it works with Lord of Affliction because I think you can take the Blightdrones in units of 1 anyway?  And similarly for 40k Custodes where the character options are in the boxes.  Otherwise it's kind of annoying, for sure.

[Killax]

15 minutes ago, Lucentia said:

Oh I agree, it works with Lord of Affliction because I think you can take the Blightdrones in units of 1 anyway?  And similarly for 40k Custodes where the character options are in the boxes.  Otherwise it's kind of annoying, for sure.

LoA is one of those examples where you wish you could have taken them per 1. But as always I think GH2018 will resolve/adress that issue for them. Because indeed they have to be taken per 2 and 220 and the box leaves you with one random left if you decide to build a Lord of Afflictions.

But one cool thing is that GW seems to want to step things up with their errata's so if players all get along to adres this 'issue' it should be able to resolve quite fast. Then again, sometimes stuff isn't resolved at all until it presents itself as an issue  

[Burf]

Pure speculation:

I think the DoK battletome is gonna have some mechanics in it that are pretty different from the rest of AoS. Morathi herself is already extremely unique in AoS, having two models at once that can supposedly switch back and forth. They also only have a single spellcaster in the army(as far as we know), which is rare outside of destruction. Will they have spell lores or will Morathi only have her unique spell (s)? Will they add more casters?

How are they going to handle witch elves? The only horde unit with no save I've seen be successful is Plague Monks and they have like a billion supplementary rules for them. With no more stacking 5+s WE need something to get them across the table a bit better.

How are they going to handle Sisters of Slaughter? Currently they fill a very similar role to Witch Elves.

Will the Naga take up the legacy held up by Judicators, Kurnoth Hunters, and Skyfires in the past as 'that shooting unit everyone super hates'? 

 

[DantePQ]

I guess Sisters of Slaughter are quite different then Witch Aelves as they could be used to bunker on objectives (Even 10 is quite good especially in cover), Witch Elves needs some kind of support 5+ save is not very good at all (unless they will start with 6+) save but I could see them have some kind of -1 to hit ability (still isn't very good) 

[Twitch of Izalith]

2 hours ago, Burf said:

Pure speculation:

I think the DoK battletome is gonna have some mechanics in it that are pretty different from the rest of AoS. Morathi herself is already extremely unique in AoS, having two models at once that can supposedly switch back and forth. They also only have a single spellcaster in the army(as far as we know), which is rare outside of destruction. Will they have spell lores or will Morathi only have her unique spell (s)? Will they add more casters?

How are they going to handle witch elves? The only horde unit with no save I've seen be successful is Plague Monks and they have like a billion supplementary rules for them. With no more stacking 5+s WE need something to get them across the table a bit better.

How are they going to handle Sisters of Slaughter? Currently they fill a very similar role to Witch Elves.

Will the Naga take up the legacy held up by Judicators, Kurnoth Hunters, and Skyfires in the past as 'that shooting unit everyone super hates'? 

 

I never really abused the bloodshield when stacking was legal and the witch elves did OK. I would deploy 2 units of 30 within range of 2 cauldrons but then they would move off independently. A single 5+ ward is not great but it does offer some protection. It seems most balanced in smaller games 1000 - 1250 points when your opponent will not usually have a massive weight of dice to throw at you.

It's going to be interesting to see what they do with cauldrons. I think they are slightly overcosted at 200 considering that you need one for every unit of witches you run. Its maybe ok for the "general" cauldron because the pile in twice command abiltity is powerful but the secondary ones don't get to use it of course.

I think the biggest problem is that they have made so many other units too survivable. Witch elves with a 5+ ward would be great if there weren't so many other units with ridiculous defensive abilities to compare them to... 

 

[DantePQ]

It depends if OK is good enough, Witches Elves with Cauldron are right now 470 points that's a lot. Witch Elves are fragile, rendless unit with average speed, medicore damage output and low defence. Sure 270 isn't much but for that about you could field Dryads (which aren't the best BT or particularly overpowered unit) which are just better. 

For them to work it should be 4+ ward from Cauldrons (not OP by any stretch on saveless unit, Pheonix Guards have that along with immunity to Battleshock and armour save and they don't need Cauldron) and more attacks (through Cauldron aura/ability not being CA or just boosted stats) or -1 rend. 

WE with 5+ won't be great they don't shoot, aren't fast and their damage output is average at best. So far they aren't good at killing anything ,not tough enough to bunker obejctive or some important point and not cheap enought to be used as chaff. 

+1A/rend and 4+ save from Cauldron would be cool 

otherwise they need point drop to 80/210

But that's my two cents and take into consideration that I compare them to other units in competitive scene so I could be biased. 

[Twitch of Izalith]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

their damage output is average at best

Surprised to here that! Have you played many games with them? or are you playing a lot of Stormcast and heavy armour stuff?

Fully buffed they are 3 attacks, 3 up re-rolling misses, 3 up re-rolling 1's to wound, with one unit getting to pile in twice, and they are on 25mm bases so you can get most of them in combat most of the time. They are absolute shredders against light armoured targets!

And they are just basic battleline troops so "OK" is really where they should be...

[DantePQ]

Yes but you take buffs etc into consideration and those cost points. I don't. 

Unless you build an army around their combo they are average at best and do not work without those buffs. It's not like Dryads were they benefit from some rules with Witch Elves you got to pay for those. 

That's why as for now they are weak BT that cost too much compared to other Battlelines. 

Don't get me wrong I don't want them to be OP but for the same reason cost they should have Dryads alike usability. (and Dryads aren't op at all just good BT unit) 

[Twitch of Izalith]

Why would you not consider synergies with the rest of the army? Its the core principal of AoS list building...

If Dryads suit your playstyle just stick with Sylvaneth..

 

[Burf]

8 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Why would you not consider synergies with the rest of the army? Its the core principal of AoS list building...

If Dryads suit your playstyle just stick with Sylvaneth..

 

I think in this case it makes some sense only because of furies/naga/Morathi.

If the new units are designed more 'stormcast-y' i.e. less buff reliant, more autonomous than WE or SoS; then the cost of bringing Cauldrons and Hags becomes part and parcel to the Witch Aelves. Furies are especially unlikely to get much out of Cauldrons being a fast (probably) flying unit. This would mean that you'd have to either include the cost of buff units into the costs of witchalves when making comparisons or judge the WE on their own merit (for lists not using Cauldrons).

If the Cauldrons/Hags ALSO benefit the Furies/Naga/Morathi in a meaningful way, then the cost is essentially 'canceled out' and it makes comparing full buff to full buff perfectly logical.

As we're currently speculating entirely, it's almost impossible to know which is the more helpful comparison, though I personally lean towards the Cauldrons likely being VERY important going forward.

[Okami]

Hey Everyone

Just started collecting and getting intot he painting of the DoK! 

So exited atm my thought is to collect a 1000 points or so of DoK before the book comes out. Where i look at the units they have now and then add the other 1000 points of the newer units. However these units I have added in I feel are a stable of what to come in the up coming book. 

Leaders
Cauldron Of Blood (200)
- Witch Brew
Death Hag (60)
- Witch Brew

Battleline
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
- Daughters of Khaine Battleline
5 x Doomfire Warlocks (160)
- Daughters of Khaine Battleline
30 x Sisters Of Slaughter (360)
- Daughters of Khaine Battleline

Now i didn't realise but the two death hag options that the Witch Brew was actually the cup the DH is holding. Where i thought I could just get two DH and both give them Brew Cup and still use it. Does anyone else feel its just a waste to buy another CoB for a model just holding a cup? 

Okami 

[Nutty]

@Okami buying it just for the cup might be a bit wasteful.. but you can probably put the rest of the kit to use in the army, or easilly sell it on when the battletome is released.

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Okami it will be quite easy to chop off one of the blades and model the other death hag with a cup or bottle or other item to represent the witch brew. Or its reasonable to claim that the one on the cauldron has witch brew without it being modelled on the actual death hag mini (she has a whole cauldron of magic infused blood to represent it). 

With one unit of witches you can get away with one witchbrew anyway if its equipped on the cauldron.

I have high hopes that the Bloodwrack shrine will be much more useful in the new battletome so you will probably end up buying another kit eventually anyway for the alternative build  

[Okami]

1 hour ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

@Okami it will be quite easy to chop off one of the blades and model the other death hag with a cup or bottle or other item to represent the witch brew. Or its reasonable to claim that the one on the cauldron has witch brew without it being modelled on the actual death hag mini (she has a whole cauldron of magic infused blood to represent it). 

With one unit of witches you can get away with one witchbrew anyway if its equipped on the cauldron.

I have high hopes that the Bloodwrack shrine will be much more useful in the new battletome so you will probably end up buying another kit eventually anyway for the alternative build  

Yeah Reckon probs the best, ill be buying the 2nd kit anyway ready. Especially in the allies box that GW has. And just see what I decide to do. 

Thoughts on doing 2 units of 30 blocks one SoS and WE? 

Okami

[DantePQ]

13 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Why would you not consider synergies with the rest of the army? Its the core principal of AoS list building...

If Dryads suit your playstyle just stick with Sylvaneth..

 

It's quite opposite

Dryads synergies are basically free in Sylvaneth Allegiance army 

Witch Elves are not - you got to pay for Hag/Caludron or both. 

You miss that, I know that synergies are principal in AoS but some are free some are not and you don't take that into consideration. 

In current form Witch Elves are just average to bad. With Synergies you mentioned they cost almost 500 (that quite a lot for a unit with 5+ save, no rend, 1 damage with average Movement. 

When comapring Dryads to WE point for point (not taking into account abilities/synergies/allegiance) Dryads are also much better.   

[Twitch of Izalith]

4 hours ago, Okami said:

Thoughts on doing 2 units of 30 blocks one SoS and WE? 

For an all comers list?

I would definitely go 30 witch aelves. The sisters are a bit more of a choice. The big block gets value from a mystic shield but you need to protect it from battleshock and you can't fit the whole thing in many terrain pieces for the +1 to save and its expensive in a small list. Maybe try 20?

10's tend to get destroyed quite quickly if they are getting shot but its not such a big points loss and you have more units to cap objectives in the battleplans where there are lots of them. 10 in cover with a mystic shield will have a 2+ save in combat that spits back mortal wounds on a 4+.  You can also use them as suicide blockers against your opponents powerful units.

A sorceress is a really useful ally even at 1000 points games. It helps to have 2 casters so you can have a choice of maxing offensive or defensive spells or casting one of each.

Looking ahead to the new book I think at least one big unit of Witch Aelves will remain a solid choice (unless you prefer dryads of course ) but SoS may either become really good or get overshadowed by the new units so it may be safer to hold off building too many until we know.

 

[Richelieu]

9 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

For an all comers list?

I would definitely go 30 witch aelves. The sisters are a bit more of a choice. The big block gets value from a mystic shield but you need to protect it from battleshock and you can't fit the whole thing in many terrain pieces for the +1 to save and its expensive in a small list. Maybe try 20?

10's tend to get destroyed quite quickly if they are getting shot but its not such a big points loss and you have more units to cap objectives in the battleplans where there are lots of them. 10 in cover with a mystic shield will have a 2+ save in combat that spits back mortal wounds on a 4+.  You can also use them as suicide blockers against your opponents powerful units.

A sorceress is a really useful ally even at 1000 points games. It helps to have 2 casters so you can have a choice of maxing offensive or defensive spells or casting one of each.

Looking ahead to the new book I think at least one big unit of Witch Aelves will remain a solid choice (unless you prefer dryads of course ) but SoS may either become really good or get overshadowed by the new units so it may be safer to hold off building too many until we know.

 

Unless the battletome provides some mechanism for getting the SoS into position as a tarpit I have no interest in them.  Their trick is neat, but really requires you to put them into combat with the enemy unit of your choosing.

[DantePQ]

Sisters of Slaughter are just bad right know, maybe 10 could be good to hold objective but for such a high cost they need a lot of set up or other factors( cover, mystic shield) to work and even then they die like flies to any shooting. Right know I would not take them at all, they need serious reules re-write or massive point drop. 

I don't have a problem with an army being glass canon (I play Harlies in Wh40k after all) but there is hardly anything canon about SoS. 

[Payce]

On 5.2.2018 at 9:33 AM, Burf said:

Morathi herself is already extremely unique in AoS, having two models at once that can supposedly switch back and forth.

This remains pure speculation, and I would be very, very surprised if there's anything to it other than internet hearsay. Morathi having two separate warscrolls would not only be extremely poor game design, it would make one or both models obsolete in various settings, which discourages buying both - definitely not something that's in GW's best interests.

Besides, if the alleged source of this rumour is so plausible, why are there no other leaks? Literally not a single other unit or rule has been revealed. I could be wrong, but until I see a definite leak that confirms Morathi having two models, I'm pouring all the salt in the Dead Sea on it.

[Richelieu]

24 minutes ago, Payce said:

This remains pure speculation, and I would be very, very surprised if there's anything to it other than internet hearsay. Morathi having two separate warscrolls would not only be extremely poor game design, it would make one or both models obsolete in various settings, which discourages buying both - definitely not something that's in GW's best interests.

Besides, if the alleged source of this rumour is so plausible, why are there no other leaks? Literally not a single other unit or rule has been revealed. I could be wrong, but until I see a definite leak that confirms Morathi having two models, I'm pouring all the salt in the Dead Sea on it.

I think that if the rules are well crafted a shapeshifter could work and I actually like it when GW pushes the boundaries into new play styles, unit types, damage profiles, etc.  I'm also generally not one to speculate, and I don't particularly care whether that giant snake is Morathi or not as I'm buying it anyway because it looks like it will be a rad model.

[Twitch of Izalith]

13 hours ago, Payce said:

This remains pure speculation, and I would be very, very surprised if there's anything to it other than internet hearsay. Morathi having two separate warscrolls would not only be extremely poor game design, it would make one or both models obsolete in various settings, which discourages buying both - definitely not something that's in GW's best interests.

Besides, if the alleged source of this rumour is so plausible, why are there no other leaks? Literally not a single other unit or rule has been revealed. I could be wrong, but until I see a definite leak that confirms Morathi having two models, I'm pouring all the salt in the Dead Sea on it.

I think the reveal video partially confirmed that there are 2 versions of morathi - one aelf form and one snake form. admittedly the only visible link is that both models have Morathi's spear but that's reasonably compelling as its presumably a unique item.

Whether its a simple choice of warscroll or some kind of shape-change mechanic is certainly pure speculation.

I would love to see something along the lines of the elf form having strong magic and buffs but when it is reduced too zero wounds she shifts into snake form combat beast mode. It would give you some great tactical plays and create some tough choices for opponents. Damned if you kill me, damned if you don't. Just how Morathi would want it 

14 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Sisters of Slaughter are just bad right know, maybe 10 could be good to hold objective but for such a high cost they need a lot of set up or other factors( cover, mystic shield) to work and even then they die like flies to any shooting. Right know I would not take them at all, they need serious reules re-write or massive point drop. 

I don't have a problem with an army being glass canon (I play Harlies in Wh40k after all) but there is hardly anything canon about SoS. 

Yeah i have had really limited success with this unit. The only thing that works most of the time is suicide sqauding them into something that you will struggle to hurt normally and using the mortal wound rebound to chip a few wounds off. As you say, they are too expensive for this to be a valuable competitive tactic. 

They are better at holding objectives than witch aelves or warlocks because they are less vulnerable in combat and less useful doing other jobs - so they have a place in a DoK list at the moment, while there is not much choice.

But in the context of the rest of the game they are not very good at anything so hopefully the new book will give them some more interesting rules.

[Bananaman]

 but until I see a definite leak that confirms Morathi having two models, I'm pouring all the salt in the Dead Sea on it.

 

 

Rob of Honest Wargamer Podcast/Twitch (ex Warhammer TV bod) said on a recent episode (I think it was the one where they discussed the leaked Death scrolls and DoK) when discussing Morathi and the big beastie 'she turns into a snake'.  

 

 

[The Traitor]

Having some sort of shape shifting power would be pretty cool, wonder how the mechanic will be, maybe they could make it a spell, like the old transformation of Khadon (or something like that, it was the sixth power from the lore of beasts in WHFB 8th ed). Also, will the models come in the same box? Or will you have to buy them appart?