Q: Pre-Battle Discussion w/ Opponent

[MrCharisma]

I'm curious to understand how much information you share with your opponent about your army prior to the battle?

I've seen some interesting comments over the last 24hrs (which I've quoted below) about pre-battle discussions and the expectation we have for our opponents and ourselves. 

• Do you tell your opponent about all of the major rules and special abilities in your army?
• Is it my responsibility to download my opponents warscrolls in the app or read the book?
• Do you tell your opponent just the major components (artefacts, command traits, spells)?
• Do you hand over your army list to your opponent and wait for them to ask any questions?
• How much information do you expect your opponent to share about their army?
• Will you ask about battalion formations, movement shenanigans, or spells?
• Do you cross-check your opponent throughout the game or trust they will do the right thing?

There is an interesting balance the competitive scene.... we have a time restriction to deploy and complete a battle,  but we want to have a fun game too. We want to share information with our opponent but don't want to give away all of our secrets. 

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on a grey area of the game;

 

Quote

At the start of the game I asked you to run through that unit as i hadn't played one in forever, you explained it's spell and combat abilities but made no reference to a shooting attack, the most important bit in my opinion. - Terry Pike

2

 

Quote

This raises and interesting point that seems to be a big deal in the UK scene. I don't really understand why people feel they must be given a detailed breakdown of how to beat the opponents army...When we first started going to tournament a REALLY pissed someone else not telling them everything my army does because I just didn't know. To be honest I still don't like it, I even like getting caught out with something cool that puts a hitch in my plans. - Papapene

2

 

 

[Rhellion]

Beat them with tactics and strategy ( and luck). Not "gotcha"s.

I explain everything to the best of my ability. First I say "do you know what it does?" If yes, we move on. If no, I will go into detail.

[Tidings]

I always start by running through my list, giving a fairly to-the-point description of everything. After I'm done, I cheerfully ask what my opponent has, and by that point they are usually happy to share since I just did. A good number of opponents stop me and tell me they want to be surprised by stuff, but they're happy to share what their units do when I ask. 

An example of how I explain is roughly like this:  "Here's my Nomad Prince, he's my general, I took Legendary Fighter and Obstinate Blade. His Command Ability lets other Wanderers reroll hit rolls of 1, and he pumps out damage in close combat while rerolling failed saves. Here's my Waystalker, he stands still and fires 6 shots that can generate more shots. He'll be doing a pretty constant stream of -1 rending wounds. Here are my Glade Guard, they are pretty basic archers but they have a once-per-game ability that makes their shots -3 rend."

You get the idea. If they have any questions I pull up the warscroll and run them through all the specifics of the stats and everything else. I don't offer info like "you should focus on these guys first" but I make it pretty clear what everything does. If I have any battalion I explain exactly what it does. I expect roughly the same quick run-through of his army and special stuff! Things like Command Traits and artifacts should be announced before the game starts, it's just good manners imo. 

I just want to take 5 min tops for my opponent and I to have a friendly chat about the armies so we have a general idea what is going to be on the table. After that, I totally trust my opponent to play everything right, almost never checking on anything unless it seems to violate the way the core rules work. Often I help remind opponents of things they have forgotten to, and appreciate it when they do so for me. 

Maybe I'm just lucky and have a really friendly group though haha. 

[bsharitt]

In any wargame, I always give a brief run down the special abilities my dwarfs/spaceships/robots/bunny rabbits/ghosts/superheros have that's fairly outside the ordinary. I don't always go into what everyone can do(depending on the size of the game of course), but when I use and ability that doesn't warrant explanation at the beginning of the game, I'll mention it, and offer to show the rule to my opponent the first time I use it.

[Rhellion]

15 minutes ago, Auticus said:

In a tournament environment the pregame I'm used to is to try and spring as many gotchas as you can.  Game mastery includes mastering the rules.  This is why people make such a big deal about the cost of books... because to master a tournament means to master the game and to master the game you need all of the rules.

If my opponent asks questions I answer them, but no one volunteers anything extra.

In my normal environment (not a tournament) I run down my entire list and give the brief summary of each unit and ask my opponent to do the same.  

I would pause the game and read every warscroll. At this point the opponent is intentionally slowing down the game by just not telling what his stuff does.

 

The warscrolls are free and available to everyone. Cost is no factor.

[Ollie Grimwood]

Just to pick up the scenario Terry Pike describes, if you are asked to describe a units abilities and then leave something out that's a bit of a poor show. Yes anyone can look up the rules but the idea is to speed things up by having the conversation there's a time limit on tournament games as it's not great having that eaten away as someone takes the time to read all your warscrolls.




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[MrCharisma]

Interesting points so far, and thank you for everyone who has commented.

@Auticus raises some very interesting points which I agree and disagree with at the same time. At it's core, we learn the game in these phases;

1. Learn the rules of the game
2. Learn the rules of my army
3. Learn the rules of my opponents

There is probably different levels of information sharing, which  @Tidings referred to. Without the time pressure and in a more friendly environment, you can probably go into a fair amount of detail with your friends/games club members. With a new player, you (hopefully) treat them with greater kindness.

 

 

[Professor Clio]

1 hour ago, Auticus said:

In a tournament environment the pregame I'm used to is to try and spring as many gotchas as you can. 

 

And that's why tournaments tend to be toxic environments full of try-hards.

[Rhellion]

19 minutes ago, Professor Clio said:

And that's why tournaments tend to be toxic environments full of try-hards.

I play in about a tournament a month (very competitively) on a good year. I've honestly never experienced this. I think it is isolated to more "toxic" groups.

Not saying it never happens, but the gamers I play with and get matched up against tend to be respectful and friendly. Maybe I'm just lucky, but that is unlikely.

[Marc Wilson]

3 hours ago, Auticus said:

In a tournament environment the pregame I'm used to is to try and spring as many gotchas as you can.  Game mastery includes mastering the rules.  This is why people make such a big deal about the cost of books... because to master a tournament means to master the game and to master the game you need all of the rules.

If my opponent asks questions I answer them, but no one volunteers anything extra.

In my normal environment (not a tournament) I run down my entire list and give the brief summary of each unit and ask my opponent to do the same.  

Your normal environment describes the UK tournament scene.

Catching people out is, in my view, the height of lameness - though I can see how that can be a game in it's own right.

 

n.b. good OP

[bottle]

As a long time listener to Facehammer I find @Terry Pike's approach really admirable. I have never played against him but I understand he even summarises threat ranges of his units because as @Rhellion says, the idea is to win with superior tactics not with "Gotcha's". And that's because a 'gotcha' only works once whereas superior strategy and tactics works every time.

This is something I wholeheartedly agree with and I think it is what makes UK tournaments such a freindly and awesome place to be. I haven't ever needed to prompt my opponent to open into this sort of discussion and I am eager too to explain the more peculiar bits in my army. People are usually interested in how a Steam Tank works, what the range of all my shooting units are, and I also go through the Hurricanum's mortal wound dump and how it works as well as how my Command Ability of the Griffon and all my spells work too.

It sets up an open a freindly game from the get-go so it is a definite must in my opinion.  

[Terry Pike]

This is taken from the FaceHammer tournament pack. The second paragraph describes how people should talk through armies and rules before the game. This is how I've always played it, also explaining how any combos, weird ability interactions etc work.

Withholding information when directly asked at this point in my opinion is basically cheating.

Can unit A do this thing?

No.

5 minutes later unit A does the said thing. You've just cheated your opponent.

[#SteveJames]

I usually go over the terrain ie "are we counting this as cover? " "can we move over this?" just to make sure we are on a level playing field. Then I explain what my stuff dose including threat ranges and what my items do (I usually hand over my spare copy of the Skull Reapers warscroll as it's hard to understand what they do until  you see it happens.).

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

As a long time listener to Facehammer I find [mention=37]Terry Pike[/mention]'s approach really admirable. I have never played against him but I understand he even summarises threat ranges of his units because as [mention=22]Rhellion[/mention] says, the idea is to win with superior tactics not with "Gotcha's". And that's because a 'gotcha' only works once whereas superior strategy and tactics works every time.
This is something I wholeheartedly agree with and I think it is what makes UK tournaments such a freindly and awesome place to be. I haven't ever needed to prompt my opponent to open into this sort of discussion and I am eager too to explain the more peculiar bits in my army. People are usually interested in how a Steam Tank works, what the range of all my shooting units are, and I also go through the Hurricanum's mortal wound dump and how it works as well as how my Command Ability of the Griffon and all my spells work too.
It sets up an open a freindly game from the get-go so it is a definite must in my opinion. [emoji4] 

I kind of agree with this, but I think there's a difference between a gotcha because you have glazed over/blatantly concealed rules and a gotcha because your opponent hasn't realised what you can accomplish with the rules.

I personally dislike the explaining of rules, at a tournament I feel it should be expected that you at least have a basic understanding of each army and roughly what tactics I had access to.

Having an opponent go over each warscroll, attributes and abilities can be frustrating and time consuming for very little benefit. Because I won't probably remember what they've said anyway!

[TinyDino]

1 hour ago, Terry Pike said:

Withholding information when directly asked at this point in my opinion is basically cheating.

Can unit A do this thing?

No.

5 minutes later unit A does the said thing. You've just cheated your opponent.

I would have to agree. You don't need to volunteer any information, unless specified by the rules pack - although it would be considered good sportmanship by most if you do, and poor if you don't. However, if someone specifically asks what a unit does, it is up to you to either 

a) show the warscroll of the unit, and the battalion if belongs to if any

b) explain *everything* it does. Lying by omission is a real thing.

This BS about how it is part of the "mastery of the game" to know what every single warscroll does precisely is, well, BS. Win by superior tactics, not by cheap distribution of partial information.

 

Edit. Also to answer the opening question:

Personally I share my entire army list (Changehost + Skyfires most recently), explain the interactions and spells that there are (e.g. swaps on balewind and skyfire boni from the shaman), explain what the balewind vortex does, what the changeling does and its objective capturing ability depending on the tournament pack, and ask if there is any unit/aspect of the army the opponent would like to know more about, or see the warscroll of.

[Mohojoe]

As a fresh face on the scene I don't know what each army does and it puts you at a strong disadvantage. I wasn't aware of explaining to your opponent what things do but luckily the first guy I played was and explained his units. I reciprocated and then continued to do so. All my games have continued like this and been enjoyable( even when being tabled because you don't pay attention to what was said) 

If this information wasn't shared I don't think my experiences at events would be as enjoyable. 

I think it may be understated but for fresh faces like myself, We look up to seasoned players and podcasters like @Terry Pikeand others to set the standards of play and introduce us to playing etiquette. 

[BobbyB]

I always check my opponent knows what everything I have does and run through it if not.

I've been considering adding a 'headline' to each unit on my list to cover off the most obvious things it does to make this a bit easier for them to consume. Would be nice to have an army builder with this built it perhaps. (Eg. Blightkings: 3w infantry, 3+,3+,hits explode on 6s, no rend can heal or mortal wound units within 3" in hero phase)

 

[Terry Pike]

1 hour ago, Mohojoe said:

I think it may be understated but for fresh faces like myself, We look up to seasoned players and podcasters like @Terry Pikeand others to set the standards of play and introduce us to playing etiquette. 

I always take extra time to explain everything to newer players, going through all the rules and combo's etc available. If they are fresh to the game its important to set a standard for them to expect when going into games. I know the others on the podcast make me out to be a villian sometimes, but people are normally pleasently suprised how much information I give away about my army and 9/10 I'll tell them exactly how to beat it!

[tolstedt]

This game absolutely does not function if you don't explain the rules of each warscroll (however briefly for each warscroll is at your own discretion and your opinion of the relative impact of the unit).  In the same way that you must announce your movement and abilities and targets of attacks when you use them.

In chess, there are only a handful of rules.  It is easy to play in silence.  But imagine a chess game with 1200 different pieces in which each player chooses their starting 16 pieces on the board.  You would never expect to play this game in silence!

We must ask, do we want to win because our opponent simply was unaware of a tactic in our toolbox?  Or do we want a good game where the opponent has the same knowledge we do and can see who is ready to outplay the other person.

The game requires communication.

Awkward situations may be avoided by communication.  I always announce something like "my intent is for these 10 models to be within range of the objective", giving the opponent an opportunity to point out if I have made a mistake.  

If I have a hero  I don't want to be charged and think it will be within an inch or so of a possible charge from the enemy's threatening unit, I will measure and ask the opponent their opinion of the distance, so that we don't argue later after decisions have been made.

If I am using a warscroll or synergy that is unclear I will ask before the game the opponent's read of it and which way we want to play it.

If I am playing Destruction I will announce my intent to automatically drink one sip of battle brew every turn of the game, unless I elect to drink two.  If things like this are a problem for the opponent, then I will adjust.

Communication in play.  Communication before the game.  That's how you get a good game of Warhammer.

[Tidings]

13 hours ago, #SteveJames said:

I usually go over the terrain ie "are we counting this as cover? " "can we move over this?" just to make sure we are on a level playing field. Then I explain what my stuff dose including threat ranges and what my items do (I usually hand over my spare copy of the Skull Reapers warscroll as it's hard to understand what they do until  you see it happens.).

This is something very important that MOST people totally forget to talk about, including myself. People have different assumptions about terrain often enough that it is worth discussing every game. 

[swarmofseals]

Personally, I think that you should be required to truthfully disclose any publicly available information if asked by your opponent. Beyond that, I'd probably stick to the following standards myself:

 

• In a casual game, players should offer to review all of the warscrolls/options and what they do beforehand. This is particularly true if my opponent is on the inexperienced side.
• In a tournament game, players should provide their opponents with a list of their warscrolls and all options taken. They do not need to offer any further information. However, if a players asks for clarification of any kind about what a warscroll, ability, or other option does then that information must be provided accurately.

[Thomas Lyons]

20 hours ago, Rhellion said:

Beat them with tactics and strategy ( and luck). Not "gotcha"s.

I explain everything to the best of my ability. First I say "do you know what it does?" If yes, we move on. If no, I will go into detail.

This.  

I have a print out of my entire list with all of my battalion abilities on this list (as most don't know the rules for all of the battalions).  I make sure to walk through any unusual abilities before the start of the game (like Be'lakor's Dark Master ability).  I read through abilities individually but I won't go out of my way to point out combos or stacking effects unless I'm asked about it.    Good opponents will see the combos with out me highlighting them.  Overall, I want my enemy to see the pain coming (wins the psychological game).   

[sven_victorious!!]

This.  

I have a print out of my entire list with all of my battalion abilities on this list (as most don't know the rules for all of the battalions).  I make sure to walk through any unusual abilities before the start of the game (like Be'lakor's Dark Master ability).  I read through abilities individually but I won't go out of my way to point out combos or stacking effects unless I'm asked about it.    Good opponents will see the combos with out me highlighting them.  Overall, I want my enemy to see the pain coming (wins the psychological game).   

Hey Tom, I like this idea and I plan to do the same. it could be a good topic of the week suggestion aswell. Little things like this could help out local gaming scenes/ players.

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[sven_victorious!!]

This.  

I have a print out of my entire list with all of my battalion abilities on this list (as most don't know the rules for all of the battalions).  I make sure to walk through any unusual abilities before the start of the game (like Be'lakor's Dark Master ability).  I read through abilities individually but I won't go out of my way to point out combos or stacking effects unless I'm asked about it.    Good opponents will see the combos with out me highlighting them.  Overall, I want my enemy to see the pain coming (wins the psychological game).   

Hey Tom, I like this idea and I plan to do the same. it could be a good topic of the week suggestion aswell. Little things like this could help out local gaming scenes/ players.

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[Deathmaster Snikch]

For the record I didn't withhold anything and I explained what my Warpseer did. I think sometimes when there's a lot of stuff to face that you haven't faced before it can go over your head to a certain degree and be hard to retain, it can take a few games to get really acquainted with what everything can do and playing the game is actually the best way to do that. The more units you haven't faced before the more there is to remember but the more you play them the more you learn what they can do. I can explain pretty much everything Sylvaneth can do and don't own a single model just because I'm that familiar with them 

I think the grey area on this one is when you ask someone at the beginning of the game do you know what everything here does and they say yes and they get caught out with something it's hard to say whether they've dug their own grave or not