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Sadysaneto

GHB17 - massive regiments. Horde armies rejoice.

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Im all for this massive regiments thing. Seems there are too many pros running minimum sized units. For starters you gain mobility, a large size unit makes it clunky. Pile in against multiple units becomes annoying aswell, in minimum units sized units especially 5 man units battleshock is nothing that can hurt you badly.  This becomes an issue for large blocks as the amount of models you can kill is larger  once you cross the bravery threshold it's a net gain of double damage. Sort of. 

 

I'm guessing the rule will be a standard 40points saved or something like that. Maybe 60. I doubt each warscroll will have their own unique reduction. And they will most certainly not use a % saving. 

Also. Skeletons wont ruin the game.

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2 minutes ago, Auticus said:

 

 

Maybe.  Discounted units that are giving free points to min/max players certainly will though, just like summoning did.  Maybe not to the same extreme but its still granting free points.

This again goes to "discounted units are ok, free points are ok".

you dont even know which units get the horde Bonus besides Skellies, so just calm down. Maybe take a deep breath. There are not only Evil Powergamers out there, dont be afraid

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Just now, Auticus said:

 

 

Maybe.  Discounted units that are giving free points to min/max players certainly will though, just like summoning did.  Maybe not to the same extreme but its still granting free points.

This again goes to "discounted units are ok, free points are ok".

Is it not ok? Isnt it just something you adapt to ? Like every single time something new is added or a warscroll gets changed ? 

I get that you have bad experiences with skeletons. But my god there are so many ways to build lists that ruins mr bones's wild ride.

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For me it just seems like a good trade off for the fee leader you get with min units and their autonomy, I hardly ever see anyone do max squads rights now, its always the minimum they can get away with.  

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1 hour ago, Auticus said:

I'm already a part of groups where the death players are cackling that they are about to bust the game and now its "their turn".

The more you tell us about this group of yours,  the more I just want to help you relocate.

What a bunch of rear ends.

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You keep using this term "free "

 

Pretty sure you're paying points for it 

Reduced points as there is obviously negatives to taking such large units, counter acted by making it cheaper. Not "free"

Hordes units gain bonuses for being larger, you pay for larger units, they gain addtional buffs for being larger, just how elite units gain bonuses when they attack an stuff.

 

There's alot of negativity coming for this with no real solid footing as you haven't played it or seen the whole picture so it's a bit silly

 

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1 hour ago, PowerCreep said:

So.....?

Honestly?  Go BCR.  FEC suffer from the fact that the linchpin of the army is like 3-4 characters with a lousy save and not a lot of wounds.  Kill them (trivially easily with anything that can shoot) and the army is basically blocks of dudes that die to a stiff breeze and can't come back.  BCR have lots of cool monsters and hit like trucks.  Even with the cool-sounding "delusion" and wondering what "Feeding Frenzy" will be (hinted in one of the delusions but rules not shown), without something stopping hero sniping I don't see FEC stock rising much because that's their biggest weakness.  I have gone from winning a game handily to losing because I lost a character to a Knight-Venator and lost my ability to replenish units.

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Just now, Auticus said:

I've done the math.  THey are not overcosted.  I spent the first three months of AOS buried in spreadsheeting the game out.

http://www.louisvillewargaming.com/AOSStats.aspx

Look up the skeletons.  You'll see 10 skeletons rank as a "C" in efficiency for offense.  THat means that they are costed in the middle for their offensive output (a "C" means they are in the middle of the bell curve).  In a truly perfectly balanced game, all efficiency ratings would be "C", which would indicate nothing is better nor worse for their point cost.  

As they gain numbers their efficiency hits an "A" which means that they are in the top of the game for their point cost compared to what they do.

Yea, I think you've overvalued the ability of getting models into base.

The output of a skeleton is 0.25 with no rend.  In a large unit it's 0.75.  
A liberator is 0.67 with no rend.

A liberator costs 20.  A skeleton is 8.  The liberator being effectively 3 times as many wounds as a skeleton and it's hard to weigh that so let's go this approach:

If I wanted to kill one liberator (20 points) I need 19 attacks from "bare bones" skeletons. That is effectively 7.6 liberators of points. Those 8 liberators kill 4.2 skeletons (33.7 points).

Liberators handily win that contest -- 34 vs 20.

Skeletons with two attacks means I need about 10 of them now (80 points).  So four liberators will now kill 2.2

Liberators will lose, but only slightly -- 17.7 vs 20.  Skeletons with 3 attacks will win handily -- 11 vs 20.  

If I need 19 skeletons for bell curve average then there is no way i'm taking that configuration.  Especially when there is no way they could all be in range.

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Auticus said:

Thats saying the core of AOS is loading down on free stuff.  If thats the case, then dont' put restrictions on summoning and make it like it used to be.

Like open play?  The way the game was released, where everything was "free" and you just played wirh what you liked and seemed fun?

Points are 'balancing" us right back into the Bad Old World of min/max, negativity, hostility, powergaming, and preemptive hopelessness.  Yaaaaayyyy .... Matched Play .... wheeeee!

I miss year one. A lot.

Edited by Sleboda
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Quote

Yes you are speaking wisdom, and yes I should wait and see but 20+ years of playing GW games and dealing with the amateur-hour of their design team has led me to be highly cynical of their efforts.  When GHB came out last year the glaring holes were discovered about a day after release.  The only way that I wouldn't really be bothered by this change is if they raised the cost of skeletons etc to compensate for the steep discount they are about to receive.

I think this is a serious exaggeration. There were plenty of strong lists during the window July 2016 to January 2017, but none of them were completely dominant "click and delete" (the way 27 Skyfires are):

  • Triple Husktusk plus Stonehorn plus Fanatics
  • Kunning Rukk plus BCR
  • Tomb Kings
  • Letterbomb
  • Stormfiends Bomb
  • Warrior Brotherhood
  • Gnarlroot with Hunters

These also span all four Grand Alliances.

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2 hours ago, Auticus said:

 

I'm already a part of groups where the death players are cackling that they are about to bust the game and now its "their turn".

 

 

Jesus. I can see why you're bitter with these kinds of players. I'm proud to play in a gaming group were every one of us routinely ends up ranking in the 40s-80s in tournaments ? We mostly go to have fun and chat with other players because we're such a casual group.  In a competitive environment I honestly wouldn't want to play GW games.

Edited by Nevvermore
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58 minutes ago, wayniac said:

Honestly?  Go BCR.  FEC suffer from the fact that the linchpin of the army is like 3-4 characters with a lousy save and not a lot of wounds.  Kill them (trivially easily with anything that can shoot) and the army is basically blocks of dudes that die to a stiff breeze and can't come back.  BCR have lots of cool monsters and hit like trucks.  Even with the cool-sounding "delusion" and wondering what "Feeding Frenzy" will be (hinted in one of the delusions but rules not shown), without something stopping hero sniping I don't see FEC stock rising much because that's their biggest weakness.  I have gone from winning a game handily to losing because I lost a character to a Knight-Venator and lost my ability to replenish units.

I mean which more expanisve to collect? (1000 points)

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Part of the beauty of AOS an a new and complex setting is how open it is. I'm glad to see a mechanic for that makes hordes viable. Conceivably there are swarming, biting hordes of beasts in the realms that sometimes crash into like-sized shieldwalls, sometimes wash over units unable to stand against them, and sometimes run into a blender of elites that cut them down in droves until they panic and flee. If done well, this broadens the variety in the kinds of battles we'll see played. I'm all for that, and so I'm excited to see what this actually looks like.

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7 minutes ago, Rungi said:

Part of the beauty of AOS an a new and complex setting is how open it is. I'm glad to see a mechanic for that makes hordes viable. Conceivably there are swarming, biting hordes of beasts in the realms that sometimes crash into like-sized shieldwalls, sometimes wash over units unable to stand against them, and sometimes run into a blender of elites that cut them down in droves until they panic and flee. If done well, this broadens the variety in the kinds of battles we'll see played. I'm all for that, and so I'm excited to see what this actually looks like.

Yeah :D this all sounds awesome! Really excited to see which Order units will get the rule? I can Imagine Vulkite Bezerkers and maybe Freeguild Guard.

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It wouldn't surprise me if all units have that rule/if it isnt one of the rulez of one. Right now multiple small units is as far as I know always better than blob squads, with leader benefits and added tactical flexibility. correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I never see maxed out units, is usually the minimum needed to get bonuses maybe with one extra group to act as a buffer so one death doesn't remove special rules.

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To be fair if you want to spend the time and effort putting together and painting 120 skeletons. Which are both boring to paint and fiddly to build. 

Just to get a slight discount for the privelege of spending your games tediously pushing 120 models around be my guest.

I take my hat off to you,  you must really love skeletons. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, PowerCreep said:

I mean which more expanisve to collect? (1000 points)

FEC is more expensive.  the Icewind Assault box is like 1500 points.  The Start collecting for BCR is like 800 points.  If you can get both, you have a solid 2k BCR force.

Edited by wayniac

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2 minutes ago, wayniac said:

FEC is more expensive.  the Icewind Assault box is like 1500 points.  The Start collecting for BCR is like 800 points.  If you can get both, you have a solid 2k BCR force.

nooooo way!Ice wind assoult is crazy expansive 130 euros in France. I think a starter box plus a thundertusk is around 1.2 k so thats a good force for around 80 euros.

i think I will go for 'em (as long as BCR dont get destroyed in GH 2), just because they are less expansive and easier to play (all though i love the terrorgheist) and after all, 

I can get the get the FEC once I am more comfortable with the rules and painting a bit more.Also I found this tutorial on AWESOME snow bases, which will go awesome with my brown color.

Also side question:Where could I find the alliance abilities, i can't find them in warscrolls and i saw people use them in games.

1 hour ago, Nevvermore said:

Jesus. I can see why you're bitter with these kinds of players. I'm proud to play in a gaming group were every one of us routinely ends up ranking in the 40s-80s in tournaments ? We mostly go to have fun and chat with other players because we're such a casual group.  In a competitive environment I honestly wouldn't want to play GW games.

Completely agree with you even though I love strategy in other games (new player)

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1 minute ago, PowerCreep said:

nooooo way!Ice wind assoult is crazy expansive 130 euros in France. I think a starter box plus a thundertusk is around 1.2 k so thats a good force for around 80 euros.

i think I will go for 'em (as long as BCR dont get destroyed in GH 2), just because they are less expansive and easier to play (all though i love the terrorgheist) and after all, 

I can get the get the FEC once I am more comfortable with the rules and painting a bit more.Also I found this tutorial on AWESOME snow bases, which will go awesome with my brown color.

Also side question:Where could I find the alliance abilities, i can't find them in warscrolls and i saw people use them in games.

Completely agree with you even though I love strategy in other games (new player)

For sake of keeping this on topic I'll reply to this in your other thread :)

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I saw a mention of great players earlier in the thread. My definition of a great player is one who gives me a fun game, not one who has tried to use maths and cheesed out a list.

I personally think player skill is ridiculously overrated in gw games - theyve never been balanced and they never will be, so this obsession with balance to me seems to just be a big distraction from having a fun game.

I got the impression from the preview that the massive regiment rule would apply to EVERY unit that can be doubled or more in size.

I reckon summoning in matched play has likely been given a shake up too, so massive regiments wont be the only source of 'free' models. Hopefully thisll let us use all the cool resurrection/new spawn/new tzaangor etc rules that are currently ignored!

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8 hours ago, Auticus said:

</snip>

I hate to break it to you but pretty much every fan comp before GHB, to include the one that GHB was based on, based their points primarily on offense and defense with a minor nod toward movement.  They pretty much all used averages.  

We have stormcast with decimators and death players with hordes.  I've *never* seen a unit of 5 decimators wipe out a 30 block unit of skeletons in one turn.  Not one time.  In fact the only players that the stormcast players here really don't like playing against are kunnin rukk... and the death players with their skeleton hordes because they can't do enough damage fast enough and the skeletons are super pumped up and rain dice down on them.

I'll check back next august for GHB 2018, assuming that indeed the direction that gw decided on was "free points for everyone" again with discounted units.  I already know from playing 40k 7th that free units and AOS summoning spam days that free points is not something that I really have an interest in.

Primarily being the key word. Synergies are too abstract to point and situational bonuses cant be pointed effectively. If you point each unit at its peak performance then its overcosted unless you are running it at its best, if you dont then when people pile on synergy then its undercosted. The value of a hurricanum changes depending on what its affecting. Its far more valuable to a unit of retributors than it is for liberators for example.

 

As for not seeing decimators frag entire skeleton hordes in a single battle round (not turn, battle round), well you're lucky. Each decimator will average 8-9 attacks @ 3/3 with rend 1 (bypassing skeletons save) for an average wound count of 17.  Deathless minions will save 3, leaving 14 dead.

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Just a thought but maybe the reason the game hasn't caught on in your area Auticus is that for a proponent of the system you spend virtually all your time trying to change it into something else and slagging it online?  Not trying to be rude, I just legitimately don't see what the constant negativity could possibly be doing for your local scene, or your own enjoyment. Other than kill it. I am an organizer in my own little corner of the realms and I know I would have a damn hard time getting people to play if I tried to get them to play Age of Mikosan instead of AoS...

I haven't seen anything yet worthy of all this hand wringing and hyperventilating. Stay calm, paint minis, and have fun because that's what toy soldiers is all about :)

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37 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

Just a thought but maybe the reason the game hasn't caught on in your area Auticus is that for a proponent of the system you spend virtually all your time trying to change it into something else and slagging it online?  Not trying to be rude, I just legitimately don't see what the constant negativity could possibly be doing for your local scene, or your own enjoyment. Other than kill it. I am an organizer in my own little corner of the realms and I know I would have a damn hard time getting people to play if I tried to get them to play Age of Mikosan instead of AoS...

I haven't seen anything yet worthy of all this hand wringing and hyperventilating. Stay calm, paint minis, and have fun because that's what toy soldiers is all about :)

You have to remember:

A) Auticus wrote Azyr Comp which was a, from what I've heard, very good (probably better than SCGT) points system for AOS when there was none and people were holding their noses about this "kiddy game" and screeching about "my balance" and "my points".  I think that, if he was in the UK and not the USA, we might very well have had Azyr Comp as one of the baselines for AOS and be giving him the same amount of respect people give the Heelanhammer guys for "fixing" AOS; he's not some random guy screaming at the wind, he knows his stuff and has done a lot for the community pre-GHB.

B) His meta is more or less full of competitive players who will break anything they can, the instant it lets them, and to hell with your fun because winning is all that matters.  The type who will insult and lambast a "casual scrub" for having the nerve to bring a subpar list to a game instead of the cheese du jour, saying it "disrespects" their time because they were too easy to beat.  The type that gatecrash a casual event just for "easy pickings" to curbstomp "scrubs" and show them how "the game is really played".  The type that think anything that isn't Matched Play with zero houserules is "playing the game wrong" and "teaching people to play wrong".

Edited by wayniac
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5 hours ago, bottle said:

Yeah :D this all sounds awesome! Really excited to see which Order units will get the rule? I can Imagine Vulkite Bezerkers and maybe Freeguild Guard.

Massive Regiments fits the Freeguild (well as least what we knew as The Empire). Would love this rule to come in for us

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