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Sadysaneto

GHB17 - massive regiments. Horde armies rejoice.

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8 hours ago, Auticus said:

You'd only pay for the 3 attacks if the unit was that big in the first place.  If I was only taking 10 skeletons I'd never expect them to cost what they'd cost if they had 3 attacks a piece.  

</snip>

I don't see why everyone screams bloody murder for points but then is ok when those points aren't representative of what they should be.  

If a model has X attacks and can take Y damage then it should cost in the same ballpark as another model that has X attacks and can take Y damage barring some gross synergy bonuses that one may have that the other doesn't.  A model that has X attacks taking Y damage costing up to 50% less than another model of similar statline is hot-garbage.  Why would you NEVER max out on that?

</snip>

I just went to a small (30 man) tournament a couple weeks ago and brought 3 blocks of 30 skeletons as my battleline (which multiple people commented on as being abnormal). You'd be shocked at how quickly they disintegrated. Every game i pulled models off by the handful every combat phase. Hell, i was actually being forced to regularly take battleshock and losing guys no matter the roll. So IF (and i do think its a big if) the last set in a horde is free i dont think itll change the math much for death. Zombies still dont have a save, rend 1 will eliminate the save for skeletons, and even a full block of 40 getting 90 attacks in will bounce off of any stormcast hero that costs 1/3 of the points the skeletons do.

 

As for unit makes X attacks and takes Y amount of punishment, that is incredibly short sighted. How would you point decimators, whose number of attacks is solely dependant on the amount of models within range? Hell, my usual opponent is stormcast and his unit of 5 decimators will routinely delete an entire 30 man skeleton horde in a single battle round and cost less.

I dont think this discount for maxed hordes will change the meta as much as a new battletome does.

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@stato nailed it - a units value is not just offence and defence but also position. This mainly means their movement value, but is also the impact of unit size on manoeuvrability.

I would argue that the 3 attack skelly at the front of the melee is worth more than all the 3 attack skellies at the back of the unit who are out of range to use those attacks, making them little more than wound counters.

Hordes will open up loads of tactics rarely seen in current matched play, not least flank attacking to minimise a horde's return attacks, and (my favourite) the horde explosion where they charge multiple enemy units so every model can attack (before they are inevitably battered into oblivion!)

I cant wait to get to grips with the new book!

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6 hours ago, Tittliewinks22 said:

Flame thrower stegadons and Skarr Bloodwrath gonna finally see the light of day!

and stardrakes.

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The way I understood it this doesn't generally apply to hordes. To me it sounded like it was more of a Skeleton and Zombie specific thing.

We'll see I guess. I think getting angry or sad or frightened for balance is too early, we don't even have the book yet! :)

Edited by Aginor
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There are some anti-horde units and methods in AOS. Decimaters come to mind for Stormcast. As previously mentioned before, dealing enough damage will make for some horrific Battleshock tests. Besides, we have to see the entire GH2 before we can pass full judgement

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I imagine we'll get a very specific list of units that work as hordes. I can't imagine seeing +40 blobs of daemon specific battleline for example, or a band of 50 arkanauts. I imagine the rules page will lay out what units can work in such a way too, but I guess we'll see. As ever, willing to see the book before deciding it's bad.

As for the movement thing, I can see it being an issue to an extent, but I had always assumed the logical thing to do was to use movement trays for every 10 models after the first ten, and use the first ten as the "probe" for your unit, when measuring for movement/charges, combat and stuff. Should stop shenanigans. Will make moving through terrain difficult... but that's supposed to be the point of hordes I guess.

Edited by DynamicCalories

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3 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Interesting to see everybody's comments on this.  I'm of two minds.  On the one hand it's great that running some units at maximum size is going to be more points effective, there's something chilling about facing a proper horde army.  On the other hand, I don't think AoS lends itself to large units of models, it can slow a game down considerably and was something I was glad got left behind in WFB.  I also worry that many units get really quite pokey at maximum size - however we'll need to wait until the new handbook drops before seeing how this actually impacts the game.

One thing is we also don't know what kind of points reduction we're talking about - it could be at maximum size they cost 10 or 20 points less ;)

 

When does the HB 2017 gonna drop?im thinkin about starting AOS

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1 minute ago, DynamicCalories said:

@PowerCreep August. No confirmed date yet.

YES!I am starting around september (my birthday) so i guess i got lucky :D

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10 minutes ago, PowerCreep said:

YES!I am starting around september (my birthday) so i guess i got lucky :D

Indeed you have!  Lots of options for you to play with when you start :)

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36 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Indeed you have!  Lots of options for you to play with when you start :)

Ye i am currently debating on wich to choose beastclaw or flesh eaters.

BOTH ARE AWESOME

Also i found an excellent box called battle force for FEC:
- 1 Terrorgheist
- 1 Crypt ghast courtier
- 29 crypt ghouls
- 6 Crypt horrors

it costs 100 euros but I think start collecting holds more value (its 65)

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9 minutes ago, PowerCreep said:

Ye i am currently debating on wich to choose beastclaw or flesh eaters.

BOTH ARE AWESOME

Also i found an excellent box called battle force for FEC:
- 1 Terrorgheist
- 1 Crypt ghast courtier
- 29 crypt ghouls
- 6 Crypt horrors

it costs 100 euros but I think start collecting holds more value (its 65)

The FEC battle force is a really good way to start.  Beastclaw raiders are very tough cookies, quite a lot of large and very hard hitting models packed into it.  FEC are going to benefit from the new handbook as they're going to get some Allegiance abilities

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35 minutes ago, Auticus said:

I don't subscribe to the "just buy a new army and paint it up and adapt" when all of the armies should be viable in the first place.  Chasing after the meta is absurd.  That may be fine and well for a tournament guy who doesn't care about his armies and only cares about the game and high tournament placings, but who wants to run an army they don't like simply so they aren't getting rolled?  Who wants to shell nearly $1,000 out every year on a new army and put the hundreds of hours into painting it up like thats a normal thing you should just be expected to do when no other game system I play makes you do that?

I have to say I'm surprised, though I shouldn't be, that the expected response is "its ok that the game is not balanced and that a handful of armies dominate the game, just git gud and get one of those armies and when they change the game and bust something else, you should just git gud and re buy a different army, thats part of gittin gud is to be gud at cycling through armies"

I'll be getting over it.  In a different game that doesn't make me buy a new army every year and paint it up just to be able to have a good game.  I was holding out that GHB 2017 would address the large semi-truck sized holes that existed but it appears they are simply shifting the goal posts of those holes instead of actually addressing them.

 

I hate to break it to you but pretty much every fan comp before GHB, to include the one that GHB was based on, based their points primarily on offense and defense with a minor nod toward movement.  They pretty much all used averages.  

We have stormcast with decimators and death players with hordes.  I've *never* seen a unit of 5 decimators wipe out a 30 block unit of skeletons in one turn.  Not one time.  In fact the only players that the stormcast players here really don't like playing against are kunnin rukk... and the death players with their skeleton hordes because they can't do enough damage fast enough and the skeletons are super pumped up and rain dice down on them.

I'll check back next august for GHB 2018, assuming that indeed the direction that gw decided on was "free points for everyone" again with discounted units.  I already know from playing 40k 7th that free units and AOS summoning spam days that free points is not something that I really have an interest in.

Even though I agree with quite some points of yours, don't you think we should just wait for the book and see what changes there are for other armies before judging the direction the game is going to?

That being said: I sure hope they finally balance the game a bit better because from how it looks right now it just isn't.

Edited by Aginor

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10 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

They get +1 attack per model for every 9 of them, up to a max of +3 extra... so they absolutely do get better with size. 

I stand corrected.  Been playing too much 40K.  My other point still stands.  This is a wait and see affair.

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following this statement...

Quote

Commanders of Death armies in Warhammer Age of Sigmar have a lot to look forward to in the new General’s Handbook. Followers of the Great Necromancer can expect updated command traits, artefacts and allegiance abilities. You’ll be able to raise a variety of powerful and versatile armies – from classic hordes of shambling minions to an elite core of ancient necromantic constructs.

I am hoping that tomb kings get a rebox and a renaming refluffing :) 

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1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

The FEC battle force is a really good way to start.  Beastclaw raiders are very tough cookies, quite a lot of large and very hard hitting models packed into it.  FEC are going to benefit from the new handbook as they're going to get some Allegiance abilities

So.....?

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1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

The FEC battle force is a really good way to start.  Beastclaw raiders are very tough cookies, quite a lot of large and very hard hitting models packed into it.  FEC are going to benefit from the new handbook as they're going to get some Allegiance abilities

What should I choose?

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I didn't see the article describe how deep a discount massive regiments get. Was it stated somewhere?

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34 minutes ago, PowerCreep said:

What should I choose?

If the FEC box you are talking about is this:

Kings-FE-Court-1_large.jpg?v=1462799601

Is actually out of print and comes with:
20x ghouls (4 of which you can build as Ghasts)
9x models that can be built as either Crypt Flayers, Crypt Horrors, or Vargheists in any combination. You can also build several courtiers.
1x Varghulf
1x kit that can be built as unridden or ridden Terrorgheist or Zombie Dragon. Rider can be a Vampire Lord or Ghoul King. The Ghoul King can also be placed on foot with a little finagling.

The Start Collecting box comes with:
10x ghouls (2 of which you can build as Ghasts)
3x models that can be built as either Crypt Flayers, Crypt Horrors, or Vargheists in any combination. You can also build several courtiers.
1x kit that can be built as unridden or ridden Terrorgheist or Zombie Dragon. Rider can be a Vampire Lord or Ghoul King. The Ghoul King can also be placed on foot with a little finagling.

On the BCR front you also have two options if you can hunt down this box:
icewind-assault-1.jpg
4x mournefangs
3x Yhetis
4x Sabertusks
1x Hunter
2x Kits that can be used to make any type of Stonehorn and/or Thundertusk

The SC Box has
4x Mournfangs
1x Kit that can be used to make any type of Stonehorn or Thundertusk

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35 minutes ago, Auticus said:

The discounts at the bigger units is actually most of the problem.

10 skeletons - 1 attack - cost 80 points (or something similar)
20 skeletons - 2 attacks - cost 160 points
30 skeletons - 3 attacks - cost 240 points

They are gaining discounts already by not paying more points for their extra attacks.  

I'd bet if you did the math you'd find skeletons at 10 to be over costed.

Furthermore a unit of 40 will have a hard time getting everything into base contact than two units of 20 hitting different flanks would.

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37 minutes ago, Auticus said:

The discounts at the bigger units is actually most of the problem.

10 skeletons - 1 attack - cost 80 points (or something similar)
20 skeletons - 2 attacks - cost 160 points
30 skeletons - 3 attacks - cost 240 points

They are gaining discounts already by not paying more points for their extra attacks.  They are getting a fairly significant discount already and will now get an even bigger discount.  They sit undercost already.  Not grossly undercost.  Not game breakingly undercost.  But undercost none the less.  Now they will hit the border of being OP because they will be grossly undercost, and of course min/maxers going to min/max and max that discount out across the board in the overall army.

Yes but again when do 30 skeltons ever get to all attack.  Is 240 points for 10 models in range getting 30 attacks OP?  That seems overcosted if you factor in capability to attack.  Raw stats are not the game.

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24 minutes ago, Auticus said:

They should not be getting a discount because sometimes they won't all get to attack.

Buts thats the core of AoS, buffs.  Positive vs Negatives.  "Yey i get 40 skeletons cheap, oh ive just been charged in two places and can only bring 5 models in to attack, Shoulve spent the pts on a morngul."

Edited by stato

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I personally dislike this addition.

AoS has differentiated itself from old Fantasy as a skirmish game, and with the rules of moving models one by one, i am not looking forward to spending the better part of an evening game watching my opponent move his blobs for aeons.

Now if they released movement trays to support the hordes players and make games faster i wouldn't mind that much, but we all know this will likely won't happen.

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