Screwface Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 1 hour ago, wayniac said: You have to remember: A) Auticus wrote Azyr Comp which was a, from what I've heard, very good (probably better than SCGT) points system for AOS when there was none and people were holding their noses about this "kiddy game" and screeching about "my balance" and "my points". I think that, if he was in the UK and not the USA, we might very well have had Azyr Comp as one of the baselines for AOS and be giving him the same amount of respect people give the Heelanhammer guys for "fixing" AOS; he's not some random guy screaming at the wind, he knows his stuff and has done a lot for the community pre-GHB. B) His meta is more or less full of competitive players who will break anything they can, the instant it lets them, and to hell with your fun because winning is all that matters. The type who will insult and lambast a "casual scrub" for having the nerve to bring a subpar list to a game instead of the cheese du jour, saying it "disrespects" their time because they were too easy to beat. The type that gatecrash a casual event just for "easy pickings" to curbstomp "scrubs" and show them how "the game is really played". The type that think anything that isn't Matched Play with zero houserules is "playing the game wrong" and "teaching people to play wrong". I didn't like Azyr comp at all. I felt it tried too hard to turn AoS back into 8th ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirjava13 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Jesus ******, the more I hear about tournaments and competitive play the less I want to go anywhere near it. I was turned off when I heard about people borrowing each others' models (not really your army anymore, is it? Seems to violate some fundamental law of the hobby for me but eh) anyway, but the more I read on here, the less I want to play and the more I want to just stick to building, painting and writing background for Saturday morning cartoon villain rats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said: Jesus ******, the more I hear about tournaments and competitive play the less I want to go anywhere near it. I was turned off when I heard about people borrowing each others' models (not really your army anymore, is it? Seems to violate some fundamental law of the hobby for me but eh) anyway, but the more I read on here, the less I want to play and the more I want to just stick to building, painting and writing background for Saturday morning cartoon villain rats. I think you're processing internet comments as absolute reality a little too much. You should try a tournament before you dismiss it based on biased information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirjava13 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Well, internet comments and every podcast I've listened to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikosan Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said: Jesus ******, the more I hear about tournaments and competitive play the less I want to go anywhere near it. I was turned off when I heard about people borrowing each others' models (not really your army anymore, is it? Seems to violate some fundamental law of the hobby for me but eh) anyway, but the more I read on here, the less I want to play and the more I want to just stick to building, painting and writing background for Saturday morning cartoon villain rats. Don't let the internet sour you on playing. Every scene or even store is different. In my area competitive players and casual players totally coexist. I didn't win many games in previous editions and I don't win much in AoS, even when I trotted out the warrior brotherhood of old lol, but I still have fun. I might get Rofl stomped in game one, but the next two are against guys just like me and good times are had all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnelian Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Yeah let's not forget that the top table final game at the latest tournament had moonclan squigs v ironjawz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikosan Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 45 minutes ago, Carnelian said: Yeah let's not forget that the top table final game at the latest tournament had moonclan squigs v ironjawz! Better nerf them before the WAAC players get hold of the models to run the latest cheddar, lol . Seriously though I think the facehammer guys said the moon clan player played the same list at multiple heats and finished better each time. Clearly still something to be said for player skill and experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdkinker Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Drycha and her squirmlings are pretty happy about this, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokek Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 10 hours ago, wayniac said: You have to remember: A) Auticus wrote Azyr Comp which was a, from what I've heard, very good (probably better than SCGT) points system for AOS when there was none and people were holding their noses about this "kiddy game" and screeching about "my balance" and "my points". I think that, if he was in the UK and not the USA, we might very well have had Azyr Comp as one of the baselines for AOS and be giving him the same amount of respect people give the Heelanhammer guys for "fixing" AOS; he's not some random guy screaming at the wind, he knows his stuff and has done a lot for the community pre-GHB. B) His meta is more or less full of competitive players who will break anything they can, the instant it lets them, and to hell with your fun because winning is all that matters. The type who will insult and lambast a "casual scrub" for having the nerve to bring a subpar list to a game instead of the cheese du jour, saying it "disrespects" their time because they were too easy to beat. The type that gatecrash a casual event just for "easy pickings" to curbstomp "scrubs" and show them how "the game is really played". The type that think anything that isn't Matched Play with zero houserules is "playing the game wrong" and "teaching people to play wrong". I have a lot of sympathy for anyone in his position but i think there is a fundamental error in believing that more better rules will stop jerks acting like jerks. It is at least as true that those jerks feel absolved of all social responsibility once you give them a supposed balancing systems (points) which they will then abuse to the max. As to the suggested GHB change I do think that really big units have been under-performing and that outside of Kunnin' Rukk are not competitive. So some sort of fix to make big units a bit more competitive on the table seems like a reasonable step, they had many ways they could have done this and I am not going to complain about the one they chose sight unseen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koalaninja Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Adding hordes is exciting as it forces you to bring more balanced lists as you will need a unit to deal with them. At the moment mortal wounds trumps everything but hordes laugh then off. 40 skeletons is not overpowered. They will kill anything if they are able to connect at full strength but they are slow and succeptable to battleshock. There are also plenty of currently unused models that specialise at dealing with hordes. Certain war machines, stegadons with flamethrowers and the stormcast paladins with axes spring to mind. If it changes the meta away from focused mortal wound spam I'm all for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageofpaddsmar Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Koalaninja said: Adding hordes is exciting as it forces you to bring more balanced lists as you will need a unit to deal with them. At the moment mortal wounds trumps everything but hordes laugh then off. 40 skeletons is not overpowered. They will kill anything if they are able to connect at full strength but they are slow and succeptable to battleshock. There are also plenty of currently unused models that specialise at dealing with hordes. Certain war machines, stegadons with flamethrowers and the stormcast paladins with axes spring to mind. If it changes the meta away from focused mortal wound spam I'm all for it! The trouble with the steg flamethrower is you have to get in range. I dont want my steg anywhere near 60 zombies hitting on 2s wounding on 3s. I know not all will be in range but alot can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koalaninja Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 2 hours ago, ageofpaddsmar said: The trouble with the steg flamethrower is you have to get in range. I dont want my steg anywhere near 60 zombies hitting on 2s wounding on 3s. I know not all will be in range but alot can be. Skink screens bro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncas Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Bloodwrack Medusa could come in very handy. 1/3 x # of models = mortal wound output. Ouch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warboss Gorbolg Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Looking forward to this. Hopefully this will better balance the current overemphasis on elites and mortal wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koalaninja Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 11 minutes ago, Warboss Gorbolg said: Looking forward to this. Hopefully this will better balance the current overemphasis on elites and mortal wounds. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnelian Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 One of the Gaunt Summoners has a spell which is 4+ mortal wounds for each model if I recall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlyRebirth Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Really interested to see how this works out. I have a friend who plays either Skaven or Beastmen against my Stormcast or Sylvaneth, and I hope GHB2 is going to be a real breath of fresh air for him. I can't wait to see if hordes are supported for him, and I'll have a lot of fun figuring out how to counter for them. In some ways I'm surprised that there seems to be more consternation for hordes than allies, actually... But I think it will be interesting to see what the new battle plans in the book are - like objective-based scenarios really made AoS in the first place, it's possible there's balance for hordes introduced in the six new ones. Or maybe there aren't. In the end, if somebody wants to be 'that person' and taking 300 of something is fun for them, power to them. Everything I've seen about Kunnin Ruk is that it's more of a burden to the player as much as their opponent - but if the rules allow, I'd have no problem with it. As long as they have no problem with introducing a turn time limit. (kidding) We've seen a few metas in AoS already. A lot changed with the first GHB; I think it's cool if it all changes again with GHB2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottle Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 If the new scenarios have objectives that can only be captured by Heroes or Behemoths its going to make list design very interesting as hordes become a killing machine but not something you can always hold objectives with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmion Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 Kill the nearby death heroes first, then watch those 40 skellies crumble in an instant. Without deathless minions skeletons wouldnt stand a chance against pretty much anything, except the first 1-2 combat phases ofc. Imo the buff to mass infantry is a good thing. I believe itll bring more diversity into armybuilding without breaking the meta. Also, troops like skeletons or clanrats are cheap for a reason - once you start to actually focus them theyre pretty much just dead or gone to battleshock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
przenicki1987 Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 I cant see the problem 1st death is now quite weak so buff for them is ok 2nd terrain is a problem for hordes raw stats is not true efficency 3rd like everything in aos just play counter army if u play vs hordes buy gaunt who can do 15 mortal wounds in one spell vs 30 skelletons buy decapitators who can kill almost same number in one atack use mortar in free people responses are at ur hand in matter of fact its easier to cast gaunt spell to horde of skelletons then make skelleton charge ur mage in proper time same with mortar or sigmarines plus as kosmion said snipe enemy heroes and then kill death units without problems. Btw some people say that it can be op just compare it to multibuff in for example papanurgle Wysłane z mojego SM-G928F przy użyciu Tapatalka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage8112 Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 Yeah, much ado about..... not much of anything yet. all we have is a "peek" at a very limited section of the rules. So it's not worth getting too bent out of shape about them. Certainly it can help to look at how unit sizes effect the games balance, but strict damage output is only a one measure of a units effectiveness. That Louisville gaming spreadsheet posted by Auticus was made fairly early in the games history (the guy was writing it on the Facebook AoS page in something like sept/oct roughly two years ago) and heavily favors damage output over anything else. Truthfully, I can't take seriously any spreadsheet that gives the Hurricanium an "F" grade. And while I appreciate @Auticus's take on how the changes effect the games balance, I do think his view is heavily influenced not only by the mindset of the players in his meta (i.e. game ******) but also his particular approach to army building. He's been very clear on a number of occasions he likes to build his armies in a very specific way, and it's been clear from past discussions that his unit choices (or tactical decisions) just don't stand up to the ruthless play style that prevails at his local club. Rather than make changes (which he's clearly stated on more than one occasion that he has no intention of playing what we would call "a competitive list" since he's had enough of that from his WHFB tournament days.) So while I do feel bad for him, I don't feel that bad for him ; his frustrations are not caused soley by "bad game design". Aside from that, I actually think this will be a good thing for the game. Perhaps I am in the minority, but I really like playing against difficult lists and steep challenges. Even with that being said, I don't think hordes getting a slight bonus will lead to an all-hordes-all-the-time meta and we'll never see MSU lists again. There are plenty of units in the alliances that are dedicated anti-horde, or have some anti-horde utility. They don't see much play now only because hordes are not the "de rigueur" of the competitive approach to list building. While TK didn't really need a great deal of help, I think Death players could use another tool or two in their toolboxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarbear Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 I look forward to it because hordes have been missing in AoS. The game hasn't had that mass battle feel, more like a selection of elite troops in a skirmish. It always feels wrong to me to have like a big Lord of Change with his 30 or so troops marching into battle. The only thing I'm not into is moving that many models, which is a fairly big concern too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb Daark Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 Realistically it won't take that long, what five to ten minutes more? - then they feet into combat and visual hell breaks loose. for me it's the cinematic of it, the slaves to darkness marauder hordes or the never ending tide of beast men. i might even have to crack out the all cavalry std army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 Silver lining - more points sent on battleline and less on things like skyfires, arrowboyz, etc. I've never found occasion to take 30 chaos warriors, but I might now. Bloodletter bomb will be a problem unless they have that sorted in GHB2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb Daark Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 1 minute ago, daedalus81 said: Silver lining - more points sent on battleline and less on things like skyfires, arrowboyz, etc. I've never found occasion to take 30 chaos warriors, but I might now. Bloodletter bomb will be a problem unless they have that sorted in GHB2. Or every Sayl fielder gets to deal with artillery heavy allies who gladly take first and bomb him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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