daedalus81 Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 Ah, yea, I'm not crazy enough to attempt that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 7 minutes ago, daedalus81 said: Ah, yea, I'm not crazy enough to attempt that. Try it! Grow as a painter! Just keep it to surfaces that would be painted-on designs were the model real (as opposed to the model's sword or armor). Definitely worth having a go at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 Eventually I will - I'm still unlearning my bad habits. Duncan's videos have helped a ton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottle Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 @Sleboda I raise you Darren Latham's NMM Lord Celestant. Do you still say that NMM should only be used on motifs/painted-on elements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 I do. I have never questioned the skill or the beauty of the results when done well. I only say that it's misapplied on 3d surfaces. It looks amazing in a photo because the photo is flat and does not allow for changes in light source, the viewing perspective of the viewer, or any rotation of the model. This means that the artist can decide what one correct set of those factors should be captured with the paint job and then record it in a photo. Any other combo and the effect is actually wrong - and jarringly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 going off topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdkinker Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 6 hours ago, Auticus said: * - from a store standpoint - almost every manager that I have ever known for any gaming store has always said to me that the tournament players make up the bulk of their sales because the tournament players are constantly buying new things for their armies to keep up with the changing rules. As such, they represent often the bulk of sales even though numerically they make up a minority in the overall pool of players because the non tournament players are usually happy with whatever they have and don't buy nearly as often. I enjoyed this post, but I think this point might be based on too limited an amount of information to get to its conclusion. I wonder what portion of sales happen face-to-face, in a brick and mortar store, the types of stores you mentioned competitive tournament players enjoying more than others. It would make sense if the majority of sales in these public, competitive spaces were from the type of gamer that prefers those spaces. But I'm not sure that that is a marker of overall sales. There are lots of ways to buy miniatures, and I wonder how many new gamers (new now, not in the 80s) use the internet for their purchases. Edit: And to speak more directly to the issue in the OP, even though I don't play with competitive tournament players, I feel the push to get more vulkites. Just cuz, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 13 minutes ago, mdkinker said: I enjoyed this post, but I think this point might be based on too limited an amount of information to get to its conclusion. I wonder what portion of sales happen face-to-face, in a brick and mortar store, the types of stores you mentioned competitive tournament players enjoying more than others. It would make sense if the majority of sales in these public, competitive spaces were from the type of gamer that prefers those spaces. But I'm not sure that that is a marker of overall sales. There are lots of ways to buy miniatures, and I wonder how many new gamers (new now, not in the 80s) use the internet for their purchases. Edit: And to speak more directly to the issue in the OP, even though I don't play with competitive tournament players, I feel the push to get more vulkites. Just cuz, I guess. And it's pretty anecdotal, because I've never encountered the same dynamic locally outside MtG. There ARE people clearly willing to buy $4-500 of stormravens to jump on the latest list, but we don't know how many of those are proxied, second hand, or borrowed. And they'll live to regret their purchase. I just ordered 30 chaos knight halberds off ebay to convert my chaos warriors and get them ready for massive regiments. Not to compete in a top tournament, but because it sounds like a ton of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 14 minutes ago, daedalus81 said: And it's pretty anecdotal, because I've never encountered the same dynamic locally outside MtG. There ARE people clearly willing to buy $4-500 of stormravens to jump on the latest list, but we don't know how many of those are proxied, second hand, or borrowed. And they'll live to regret their purchase. I just ordered 30 chaos knight halberds off ebay to convert my chaos warriors and get them ready for massive regiments. Not to compete in a top tournament, but because it sounds like a ton of fun. do you feel chaos warriors will be alright in big hordes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Arkiham said: do you feel chaos warriors will be alright in big hordes Not certain, but i'll give it a try. If stormvermin got 60 points off of 560 then chaos warriors would get something close to that, which isn't huge, but might be enough to squeeze what I need into the list. A big block with halberds to get enough of them in range of targets and some careful planning to get them under Fatesworn will make them killy enough. Support them with a couple of shrines and mystic shield and they won't go anywhere very fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzaangor Management Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 I'm hoping that Marauders and their equivalents don't all end up at a minimum unit size of 20, as the clan rats have. Mostly this is because I'll have to paint another battleline choice and I was just crowing about having finished my painting of the same models over and over, so now I'll look quite the fool! As others have said, horde style armies are more difficult for newer players and while I'm sure that this is in part a problem specific to me, the choices that I made in planning the army and the fact that I want everything painted before it hits the table, I do wince at the idea of having to get another big block painted. I suspect that this will be a daunting prospect for many new players but I'm hoping that the conditional battleline choices might help here, so fingers crossed that these are many and varied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 45 minutes ago, Tzaangor Management said: I do wince at the idea of having to get another big block painted. I keep seeing "have to" being tossed around. That seems nuts to me. We're talking about a few points saved here and there (in trade for fewer command models at that). Nobody "has to" get more models. Hordes are not mandatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, Auticus said: See lol. Everyone sees the benefits of free points. Its certainly not mandatory but not taking advantage of free points puts one at a disadvantage when one's opponents will be maxing that candy aisle out. But to get the free points, you have to spend even more, lose movement flexibility, lose cover options, and probably lose the freebies of command models (which can mean even fewer models for free with stuff like TK banners). It's not as simple as "free points - woot!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzaangor Management Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 33 minutes ago, Sleboda said: I keep seeing "have to" being tossed around. That seems nuts to me. We're talking about a few points saved here and there (in trade for fewer command models at that). Nobody "has to" get more models. Hordes are not mandatory. Haha, no 'free points' wanted here. To give it my personal context, I have two small 10 man units of Marauders that may become one 20 man unit. If this happens, then I'll 'have' to paint another 10 models (I may have been exaggerating 'big block' here) of whatever to fill up my missing battleline slot and make my army legal in a matched play sense. Further, by increasing the cost of my battleline, there is less space for me to fit the cool monsters in that I'm hoping the allies system will allow me. These are the things that I am most excited to paint at the moment and God dammit I thought I'd eaten all my vegetables and my promised desert was about to arrive ?. I appreciate that this is somewhat personal to me, but I suspect that there are other new hobbiests out there either part way through planing, buying, building or painting and it seemed as though the potential increase to minimum unit sizes had not been discussed and that the horde rule, although we don't know the full details, may effect both ends of the scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freejack02 Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Auticus said: See lol. Everyone sees the benefits of free points. Its certainly not mandatory but not taking advantage of free points puts one at a disadvantage when one's opponents will be maxing that candy aisle out. Perhaps many of us are simply excited to craft a new list and have a chance to play with hordes now that they seem a little more viable? I know I will be interested to see if glade guard blocks are a cheaper alpha strike or I can make use of my mountain of dryads that are collecting dust. Just because something is buffed does not make it instantly OP - I daresay the sky is not yet falling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Marius Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 10 hours ago, Auticus said: That is very valid - scenarios can balance out the game as well. If they are implemented properly. You are quite correct. The powergaming tournament players here hated those scenarios with a fiery passion. Blood and Glory and watchtower were always "lets reroll this to something else". And tournaments that implemented those scenarios were shunned by a good chunk of my old whfb tournament brethren. Ive heard of other player groups doing this and it fascinates me. I see it as theyre basically house-ruling because they cant come up with armies which are optimal across the full range of scenarios... which were designed to reign in the excesses of optimising just for points efficiency! Three Places of Power does that now, and Death and Duality will in ghb2, which should continue to encourage more heroes to be taken at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotrek Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Well if people dont want to paint hordes they can always just use things like liberators/blood warriors. Dont see them changing to min 10. As for "everyone will take free models every time", then why does death always have the fewest representatives and usually places mid to bottom tiers at tournaments? Zombies, skeletons, grave guard, black knights, blood knights, crypt ghouls, crypt horrors. All of them get free models, damn near the entire GA is based on bringing dead models back for free. They dont place well because the quality of those troops are low. You can throw half your army into a horde and it will still bounce off staunch defender stormcast heroes that cost 100pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 I can't see the really quite small discount causing too much of an issue. It's a very small bonus that may help very specific builds nothing more, it just means taking a large force becomes a bit more viable. If the new Matched play Battleplans are anything like the old ones only having a small number of very expensive units isn't that helpful. Incidentally having high wound count is one of the ways of countering Skyfires which are something people have done a lot of complaining about. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 I'm really hoping the Marauders don't get set to minimum 20 and Chaos Warriors should be 5 for 90 rather than 10 for 180. Puts them at a big disadvantage compared to Liberators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 21 minutes ago, Nico said: I'm really hoping the Marauders don't get set to minimum 20 and Chaos Warriors should be 5 for 90 rather than 10 for 180. Puts them at a big disadvantage compared to Liberators. This and Ardboyz too please :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Pike Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 40 minutes ago, Nico said: I'm really hoping the Marauders don't get set to minimum 20 and Chaos Warriors should be 5 for 90 rather than 10 for 180. Puts them at a big disadvantage compared to Liberators. How many Marauders come in a box... how many Clan Rats come in a box... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Quote How many Marauders come in a box... how many Clan Rats come in a box... That's a good point. Clanrats also gain synergies from large numbers, which Marauders don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Pike Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 21 minutes ago, Nico said: That's a good point. Clanrats also gain synergies from large numbers, which Marauders don't. Liberators are Judicators are now boxed in 10's, I dont see either of these unit sizes changing though so Marauders could be safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCharisma Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Is it actually free though @Auticus? A lot of people would be mini-maxing at the moment and in order to increase their unit sizes to gain a benefit from Massive ranks discounts, you'll likely need to drop elite units or characters to fit it in. Bloodletter bomb might be an exception, but these people are jerks ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 TBQH the point discount doesn't seem that significant. I don't think we'll see a sizable increase of hordes across the board. Arguably, they're a practical hassle and expensive. Not everyone wants a shittonne of models. But this does mean that those who like to roll out a unit of 40 Greenskinz or 60 Grots or Clanrats or w/e might not get rolled the same as before. I honestly think it will shake up the meta a slight bit, because stuff like mortal wounds won't be king - but they absolutely won't be obsolete, either. It looks like army compositions will go back to being strong against x but weak against y. That's my take anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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