GHB 2017 Points changes

[Aginor]

Well, is there ANY army that can stand mass shooting in round one?

except very sturdy ones like Stormcast or so that is.

If I face a shooting list with my Seraphon I am practically dead as well. They have to snipe two heroes and there goes more than half of my offensive power.

I rather think the problem is the other way round. Stuff like Kunnin Rukk with Archers or Skyfire spam just kill almost every army. That's not the armies' fault but tells us that some shooting units are just meh. I vote for better cover rules. Even though that would mean that my Seraphon become even weaker.

[Nico]

Quote

except very sturdy ones like Stormcast or so that is.

You mean the most popular army, which can sit back with rent-a-cover command trait and lantern reroll 6s to hit them with shooting?

Sylvaneth if heavy on Dryads can also negate shooting with -1 to hit and good saves.

Nurgle are very strong against pew pew. Moonclan Grots are surprisingly resilient to it (ludicrous 4+ saves vs shooting and bravery 6 against shooting - out of combat)

 

[Aginor]

16 minutes ago, Nico said:

You mean the most popular army, which can sit back with rent-a-cover terrain and lantern reroll 6s to hit them with shooting?

Sylvaneth if heavy on Dryads can also negate shooting with -1 to hit and good saves.

Nurgle are very strong against pew pew. Moonclan Grots are surprisingly resilient to it (ludicrous 4+ saves vs shooting and bravery 6 against shooting - out of combat)

 

Yeah, Stormcast are good against everything. Almost no weaknesses except mortal wounds (but that's pretty much everyone's weakness so it doesn't count.

Y'all really good and competitive players might disagree, but for a not so experienced player who doesn't play a top tier army those are almost unbeatable, which is very disappointing. And they seem to get better with every release.

 

EDIT Also sorry I think I contributed to kiiiinda derailing this thread. But putting those points into perspective is really important IMO.

[Veterannoob]

it's not points, but I want the allowable hero slots to go up to accommodate subfactions like Fyerslayers or Ironjaws who have only a few units and mostly characters in the army.

Points-wise, only thing I can think of that's not already been announced (yay for my Fyreslayers!) is stonehorn and thundertusk slight raise, not too over-the-top, but keeping in mind with the wise @Thomas Lyons notion of price based on synergies.

[Jpdorrian]

My two cents, I really don't see the point of this thread. If the GHB2 is going to be released in August/Sept it's probably already gone to print so no chance of influencing/changing anything.

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[Aginor]

15 minutes ago, Jpdorrian said:

My two cents, I really don't see the point of this thread. If the GHB2 is going to be released in August/Sept it's probably already gone to print so no chance of influencing/changing anything.

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I think at this point we a re pretty much discussing stuff for fun, I don't think anyone from GW reads threads like this anyway.

[Lincoln Hawk]

25 minutes ago, Jpdorrian said:

My two cents, I really don't see the point of this thread. If the GHB2 is going to be released in August/Sept it's probably already gone to print so no chance of influencing/changing anything.

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Something has to pass the time in the dark abyss of blue,red,green,black,white, grey, rainbow coloured space marines. 

[Jpdorrian]

Lol, I think they are becoming a lot more social media savy which it helping them to build and tweak a games for the better

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[Koalaninja]

Saurus Guard have been the most problematic unit in my gaming group. No one likes playing against them. In our experience they are a feast or famine unit. Either the enemy doesn't have mortal wounds and the lizardmen player steam rolls or they do and he is crushed. Two wounds and a ward would be so oppressive! 

[Aginor]

25 minutes ago, Koalaninja said:

Saurus Guard have been the most problematic unit in my gaming group. No one likes playing against them. In our experience they are a feast or famine unit. Either the enemy doesn't have mortal wounds and the lizardmen player steam rolls or they do and he is crushed. Two wounds and a ward would be so oppressive! 

Huh. Seems your gaming group does not contain any armies with a halfway decent amount of mortal wounds or good rend then. Most Seraphon players I talked to don't even bother playing Guards anymore because the tier1 armies just kill all of them in one round.

Interesting to see how different local metas look like.

[Furious]

5 hours ago, Koalaninja said:

Saurus Guard have been the most problematic unit in my gaming group. No one likes playing against them. In our experience they are a feast or famine unit. Either the enemy doesn't have mortal wounds and the lizardmen player steam rolls or they do and he is crushed. Two wounds and a ward would be so oppressive! 

You see, I think this is an example of a fun and interesting unit. Everything can't be good against everything. I think there needs to be more units like this, at least the OP ones should resemble some kind of gamble.

[Trout]

On 7/3/2017 at 5:16 PM, Gotrek said:

It doesnt fix mixed alliances, it makes the problem worse because under your system you can take a hurricanum while maintaining allegiance abilities. Sure the hurricanum might cost 20 or 40 more points but that is a tiny tiny tax to maintain SCE deepstrike or KO code abilities.

Like I said, it would require playtesting. It could be that the hurricanum needs to cost 100 more points for non-faction members. That's what you would figure out through actual play testing. But I consider the idea that you can have a stormcast eternal army with a hurricanum if you wanted to a good thing, not a bad thing. It would move us back closer to the original design goal of focusing on grand alliances rather than factions.

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, Auticus said:

Depends on your group.  If you are playing in a tournament heavy powergaming group, saurus guard will die quickly.

Thank you for using the word "group."

[Koalaninja]

Reading these forums you would assume everyone in the world is a power gamer. Local metas are very different. The main deterrent to OPness tends to be most people's natural aversion to painting the same unit more than once . July 2017 and never come up against one kunnin ruck  

[BunkhouseBuster]

I know this isn't really the thread for it, but as for changes made to the General's Handbook, I would like to see a chart specifying standardized base sizes for models.  Yes, yes, I know that the game can be played without bases counting, but so many players don't do that, and I have forgotten that about the rules so many times it isn't funny.  Even if it is non-committal and includes a range for the model (like Round 20-29 mm) would be sufficient for me.

Heck, I would be okay if it included square base sizes as well as rounds, and could have a range on the chart; a column for rounds and a column for squares both.  Validating both versions would be nice, and save me from possibly having to rebase my wife's unpainted High Elves.

(And while I'm wishing, I would like my familial issues to be resolved, have more free time, a winning lottery ticket, and a pony)

On the topic of points, I can now say that Thundertusks are super powerful.  I played against them for the first time recently, and that 6 Mortal Wounds on a 2+ is nasty!  Daggum!

[someone2040]

7 hours ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

I know this isn't really the thread for it, but as for changes made to the General's Handbook, I would like to see a chart specifying standardized base sizes for models.  Yes, yes, I know that the game can be played without bases counting, but so many players don't do that, and I have forgotten that about the rules so many times it isn't funny.  Even if it is non-committal and includes a range for the model (like Round 20-29 mm) would be sufficient for me.

Heck, I would be okay if it included square base sizes as well as rounds, and could have a range on the chart; a column for rounds and a column for squares both.  Validating both versions would be nice, and save me from possibly having to rebase my wife's unpainted High Elves.

(And while I'm wishing, I would like my familial issues to be resolved, have more free time, a winning lottery ticket, and a pony)

On the topic of points, I can now say that Thundertusks are super powerful.  I played against them for the first time recently, and that 6 Mortal Wounds on a 2+ is nasty!  Daggum!

I don't think GW will do this I think they want the flexibility that they can change bases at any time and not have it really matter. I bet for example, the newly rebased Plaguebearers won't even show up in all countries for another 3-6 months until stocks get run down in the warehouses.

I've never really been a fan of the rounds vs squaresdebate or the having to base things on proper sized bases debate anyway. It's all well and good for you guys living in regions with thriving scenes to enforce base sizes, but for the rest of us where 16 players attending a tournament is a good turn out, I'm not gonna say no to someone who has their Plaguebearers on 25mm's rather than 32mm's or squares rather than rounds.

 

Sadly, the Thundertusk IMO is one of those units which could do with a warscroll change as opposed to a points change. Especially with the lack of line of sight rules, any ability like that in the game is going to be pretty nasty. Starting at 6, when they can probably shoot you with it first turn is going to be tough to balance. You can use it after destruction move + regular move + run + whatever else they have I don't know about - huge threat range for almost a guaranteed auto-6 mortal wounds.

I don't even think that shifting it to a 3+ really makes that much of a difference, it feels really bad on the opposing end when it works, and there's nothing you can really do about it other than shoot it first.

[BunkhouseBuster]

13 minutes ago, someone2040 said:

It's all well and good for you guys living in regions with thriving scenes to enforce base sizes, but for the rest of us where 16 players attending a tournament is a good turn out, I'm not gonna say no to someone who has their Plaguebearers on 25mm's rather than 32mm's or squares rather than rounds.

Lol, there are about 5 of us in our local area, and that seems to be it unless we drive over an hour away.  I have no preference myself as well, but I know a lot of others are particular about that (for whatever reason).

14 minutes ago, someone2040 said:

Sadly, the Thundertusk IMO is one of those units which could do with a warscroll change as opposed to a points change. Especially with the lack of line of sight rules, any ability like that in the game is going to be pretty nasty. Starting at 6, when they can probably shoot you with it first turn is going to be tough to balance. You can use it after destruction move + regular move + run + whatever else they have I don't know about - huge threat range for almost a guaranteed auto-6 mortal wounds.

I don't even think that shifting it to a 3+ really makes that much of a difference, it feels really bad on the opposing end when it works, and there's nothing you can really do about it other than shoot it first.

I would like a Warscroll change as well.  It's no unprecedented to since we have seen Bloodbound and Stormcast get some changes since launch.  Perhaps it will be something much more tame, even if it is 2d3, then 1d3+1, then 2, then 1 on its damage chart.  At least, that's what I would do if it kept the hits on 2+.

[Sleboda]

35 minutes ago, someone2040 said:

Sadly, the Thundertusk IMO is one of those units which could do with a warscroll change as opposed to a points change. Especially with the lack of line of sight rules, any ability like that in the game is going to be pretty nasty.

Wait, what? It doesn't require LoS?  That is pretty nasty.

[someone2040]

Just now, Sleboda said:

Wait, what? It doesn't require LoS?  That is pretty nasty.

Sorry for the confusion, I'll clarify. It does require line of sight.

But as we know, the rules for True line of sight in Age of Sigmar mean it can be quite hard to hide your characters.

That was the point I  was trying to make, that it is quite easy to get within 18" range and hit something for 6 mortal wounds.

[Sleboda]

Ah. Ok.  Thanks for the clarification.

I don't usually much trouble keeping important models out of line of sight when needed because I use plentiful terrain.

[Earthtremor]

I'm also pretty sure that it can't run and shoot. It isn't that hard to keep all your most important stuff and characters more than 30" away for turn 1 anyway. There are plenty of counters to the tusk bit like most good things... If someone turns up with 1 or 2 you can handle it. When people turn up with the miraculous self healing triple set, that's when hand gestures get used and people comment on whether your parents were married when they had you. 

There are plenty of other units that do similar tricks, or have huge range, or can drop down and snipe. These units make it more tactical so you have to think carefully all the time. Not just line up and run at each other. 

I agree a points increase is a good idea but maybe by 30-40max. The warscroll itself is fine 

[someone2040]

1 hour ago, Earthtremor said:

I'm also pretty sure that it can't run and shoot. It isn't that hard to keep all your most important stuff and characters more than 30" away for turn 1 anyway. There are plenty of counters to the tusk bit like most good things... If someone turns up with 1 or 2 you can handle it. When people turn up with the miraculous self healing triple set, that's when hand gestures get used and people comment on whether your parents were married when they had you. 

There are plenty of other units that do similar tricks, or have huge range, or can drop down and snipe. These units make it more tactical so you have to think carefully all the time. Not just line up and run at each other. 

I agree a points increase is a good idea but maybe by 30-40max. The warscroll itself is fine 

Hmm you're probably right, since it's ability counts as an attack it probably can't run and shoot.

It's definitely true that it's important in the game to have various threats that you have to deal with. It's even important to have strong shooting attacks in the game.

What I don't really like about the Thundertusk in particular though, is how "Point and click" it is. I don't really like having scrolls with such a powerful ability that is pretty much guaranteed to go off. There's no skill in it, and there's not really much counter-play other than hide or strike first. For most other attacks in the game, you can counter them by debuffing the hit roll, the wound roll, boosting your own armour save. Of the ones that deal mortal wounds, they're generally random damage and usually accompanied with a casting roll, prayer roll, some other condition or are only D3 mortal wounds.

If I had to say what my gut was feeling, it's that, I think it's unhealthy for the game to have such a reliable attack that can take out a regular hero in one shot. The other high damage attacks in the game, usually would have a lot less chance of going through (Ignoring destiny dice). In this case, it's just 83.33% of the time a hero may be deleted if it's in range/sight. And if you're on the receiving end of that, I don't think you're going to be that happy about the game.

Which in general, is why I'd be a lot happier about it if it was D6 mortal wounds rather than 6 on the first bracket. At the very least in this case, they have to hit, and then still roll well for damage to take you out in one shot. Be happier still if they actually had to roll a proper hit roll.

[13on2D6]

10 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Wait, what? It doesn't require LoS?  That is pretty nasty.

Theres a lot worse potentially than Stonehorns, but you can counter them. - examples - Stomfiends with warp ganuntlets either 'Sayl flied' or as part of the Clan Skyre formation . Zombie dragons red fury where it attacks again if they roll less than the number of wounds inflicted, bloodl etter bombs, Khemists multi stacking units, things with a 2+ save rerolling 1's,

Most armies can have some amazing synergy and combination, most of which can be combatted or averted and I am sure that GHB2017 will bring some fine tuned balance

To your point on the stone horn that's not terrible and costs a lot of points to take, I have had a bloodletter bomb turn 1 charge inflicting 52 mortal wounds. ( Murderhost formation, unit of 30, command ability on them from wrath of khorne allowing them to run and charge, stoke them, put lord of war on them,  used 2 lots of the damned terrain nearby so was hitting on 2's, mortal wounds on 2's re-rolling 1's and got to run in the hero phase, run in the movement phase and then charge adding 4 inches to each because of the stoker and WOK bloodthirster ability!

[Furious]

6 hours ago, someone2040 said:

 

What I don't really like about the Thundertusk in particular though, is how "Point and click" it is. I don't really like having scrolls with such a powerful ability that is pretty much guaranteed to go off. There's no skill in it, and there's not really much counter-play other than hide or strike first. For most other attacks in the game, you can counter them by debuffing the hit roll, the wound roll, boosting your own armour save. Of the ones that deal mortal wounds, they're generally random damage and usually accompanied with a casting roll, prayer roll, some other condition or are only D3 mortal wounds.

This is my biggest complaint about AoS in general. SCE are particularly guilty of this - they've got a lot of nasty tricks. The Hammerstrike Force is basically free board control, minimum four mortal wounds max 12 vs whatever unit they want unless their opponent really knows how to counter it during setup. 

I'm usually laid back when it comes to losing, it's just the nigh-uncounterable abilities that sour me in this game.

[13on2D6]

27 minutes ago, Furious said:

This is my biggest complaint about AoS in general. SCE are particularly guilty of this - they've got a lot of nasty tricks. The Hammerstrike Force is basically free board control, minimum four mortal wounds max 12 vs whatever unit they want unless their opponent really knows how to counter it during setup. 

I'm usually laid back when it comes to losing, it's just the nigh-uncounterable abilities that sour me in this game.

Roadblock them with cheap units so they cant alpha strike your juicy stuff?

sacrifice so that you can then counter strike