Benlisted

https://www.goonhammer.com/generals-handbook-2023-2024-the-goonhammer-review/ So the rules for the new ghb if not the points are out, how do we feel about them? Fighting in 2 ranks going away is a big deal for us and I feel like it really hurts scarlet doom and quicksilver dead - MSU which plays the new missions pretty well, or a big blob of reapers with hoarfrost support seem like the best builds now potentially. I'm not sure where I stand on the andtorian loci - whether to lean into it and take 2 gos + reikenor for three semi decent casters with MoM, primal dice and candles. Seen some talking about going 0 wizards due to the usual super casters still threatening to unbind everything but that locks you out of hoarfrost and makes several missions harder for you.

Finally got round to updating my points efficiency spreadsheet with the new points: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit?usp=sharing Not a huge deal has changed as the non-hero changes were pretty minor by comparison. Maybe I should add a sheet with the heroes...

Do mounts count as melee weapons and gain +1D as well?

The Host passing wound rules specifically prohibit any wards on either unit, passer or receiver.

What's the herohammer type of build looking like list wise? I'd assume Kurdoss and some LEs?

There's a few more actually though specific to units - Harridans get +1 to hit on their warscroll, coaches can give themselves a 5+ ward. Discorporate can be replicated by a harrow too. In terms of + to wound you have GoS, chainrasps charging, and harridans vs wounded enemies. In terms of + to attack you have lightshard, and reapers and dreadblades on their warscrolls. In terms of -1 damage, just the KC. In terms of -1 save, just wave of terror.

I think this is all fair for sure - if you need to actually deal a large chunk of wounds to something then either 2+/2+ bladegheists are going to be pushing through over 20 wounds before saves, or a big block of rasps and/or grims is the way. I think most lists will want a hammer and those undoubtedly hit higher absolute wounds dealt than harridans ever can thanks to their base size and 1" reach, and the boost to hit and wound capping at +1. But there's a limit to how many of those hammers we can support/fit in whilst still taking advantage of our excellent mobility, and for just bog standard brawlers that need minimal support (yes something to activate the buff but I don't think any NH unit should ever be alone anyway) I think harridans are the best bet. That's what I'm trying to make people aware of with the maths!

Check the second tab where I've got all self buffs on! They look even better there. You can also download a copy and adjust whatever you want to play with any combination of buffs.

This is a valid point - and one I was thinking about when comparing units. There's not that much difference between harridans and BGs even into low save units, and nothing has that amazing output so it's hard to find a real hammer. I think you're right that something like rasps/reapers or massed reapers have a role there as a unit that can actually wipe something in one go.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit#gid=249056940 Shared this a few pages back, check it out, it's where all the maths I was quoting comes from so you can see the hard numbers for yourself. You talk about comparing a charging BG to a harridan without their self-buff which I think isn't really fair - yes it's a bit harder to get harridan's off but we have an absolute ton of tools to do so, especially as it doesn't even have to be the unit they're fighting that's wounded, just something nearby. You can shoot the buffing hero and still have harridans benefit. I don't think your point on healing makes sense either to be honest though perhaps this is down to the misunderstanding that they don't get buffed from wounded not killed enemies? I think if anything it's actually the other way round though - BGs will never get their buff on your opponent's turn, harridans might if you activate in the right order. I don't think you have to take craventhrone to activate harridans' buffs - any other unit fighting first can do it though obviously this leaves them vulnerable. But you have: casts from any wizard, shooting from BC/banshee/olynder/chainghasts/craventhrone/krulghast, charges from hexes/BC/awlrach, fight linking from KoS. That is a list so long every list should have numerous options to achieve this anyway - you don't need to specifically build in something to help activate the buff. Anyway hopefully that clarifies my thinking!

Yeah I was a little boggled at the number of people doing harridans down given the numbers! Just to reiterate: Unbuffed harridans have our best damage output per point into 6+ and worse. However, the only thing better than them into 5+ and 4+ is myrmourns, and at 5+ the difference is negligible. Similarly at 3+ BGs do do better but only by a miniscule amount (in fairness though most of the other rend 1 units are within a hair of harridans here too though. Factoring in the buffs units can give themselves, harridans are our best output per point into anything 3+ and better, only at 2+ does stuff with rend pull ahead (and remember -1 from wave of terror makes 2+ effectively 3+). Charging BGs match them at 3+ and reapers into big units and myrmourns come close. In terms of expected damage for min units, without buffs harridans do 6.8 wounds into 4+, 4.6 into 3+. The best into 3+ (BGs) only do 5, the difference is minimal. But Vs no save units it's 13.3 Vs 10 for harridans Vs BGs, the next highest. With buffs harridans deal 10.3 to 4+ and 6.8 to 3+. BGs are doing 10 and 7.5 respectively, less than a wound in it. But for no save, you're looking at 20.5 Vs 15. To sum up, harridans are point for point our best output into basically everything bar 2+ saves and against high save stuff the difference is very small in actual numbers of damage dealt. Even without buffs you aren't doing better putting our rend -1 stuff into 3+ or worse units - only myrs are meaningfully better into 3-4+. Given their being cheaper than gheists and having inbuilt durability on the charge I think they are a great independent operator that doesn't need multiple moving parts or aura babysitting (****** you entirely within). Yes you need to do wounds prior to their combat, but spells, shooting, charges from several units, other fights, etc can all proc this fairly incidentally, especially as you will probably want to be multicharging anyway. And yes, they don't reach the output of a fully buffed bladegheist unit with 2+/2+ and an extra lightshard attack, but you are probably investing quite a lot into those buffs and even if that is the route you want to take, you can't give every unit those buffs all at once. I really do see harridans being a mainstay of the army! Also very much agreed that hexes look really good, the mobility is amazing and the charge MWs are also great. I see myself running a mix of hexes/hosts for bodyguard/harridans to be honest, and relying on MWs for downing the toughest targets.

I genuinely think it'll be rasps, 10 5+ wounds for 5-15 pts more than 4 4+ wounds is significantly tougher for a marginal price increase and much larger footprint/more bodies for objective control. 4 wounds on a unit is just way too squishy for nearly 100 pts for my liking. There's also tomb banshees cairn wraiths and torments which, if you have the hero slot, are quite possibly more attractive (hell, more durable) than min units with 4 wounds.

Cheers for the catch! Stupid me had dragged the formula down and forgotten to replace it with sums in the appropriate place for those units. Should be fixed now. New interpretation is... Unbuffed Harridans remain best vs low saves, with a bit of a gap to rasps > myrs > blades >> hexes > reapers > craventhrone (melee + ranged) = chainghasts > hosts which are all relatively close with a slightly larger gap after banshees. Glaives way out the bottom. For higher saves myrs best, then gheists = chains > reapers >> hexes > harridans. Notably harridans cease to be best at 5+ saves but only marginally. With self buffs vs low saves it's harridans then BGs pulling ahead more from rasps but reapers equal rasps. At high saves revs basically equal myrs with their buff, but reapers and harridans are both pulling respectably similar numbers. So the conclusion that reapers are more useable than my first pass showed is definitely right, though hexes being as good output wise as them (without buffs) and super mobile with MWs certainly means they have stiff competition... Another key thing to note is that harridans with their buff retain the best output up until 3+ where they only marginally lose to BGs, so they are the best option efficiency wise into most realistic targets if you can get a wound off first, bar the unkillable 2+ type stuff for which we can use MWs. Their debuff also probably renders them one of the most durable units point for point. And they don't need investment in +1 to hit and +1 to wound buffs unlike other units, saving a ton of points there.

So been updating my number crunching spreadsheet based on the leaks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit?usp=sharing Unbuffed Harridans are best vs low saves, with a bit of a gap to rasps > myrs > blades >> hexes > reapers > craventhrone (melee + ranged) = chainghasts > hosts which are all relatively close with a slightly larger gap after banshees. Glaives way out the bottom. For higher saves myrs best, then gheists = chains > reapers >> hexes > harridans. Notably harridans cease to be best at 5+ saves but only marginally. With self buffs vs low saves it's harridans then BGs pulling ahead more from rasps but reapers equal rasps. At high saves revs basically equal myrs with their buff, but reapers and harridans are both pulling respectably similar numbers. So that reapers are more useable than my first pass showed, though hexes being as good output wise as them (without buffs) and super mobile with MWs certainly means they have stiff competition... Another key thing to note is that harridans with their buff retain the best output up until 3+ where they only marginally lose to BGs, so they are the best option efficiency wise into most realistic targets if you can get a wound off first, bar the unkillable 2+ type stuff for which we can use MWs. Their debuff also probably renders them one of the most durable units point for point. And they don't need investment in +1 to hit and +1 to wound buffs unlike other units, saving a ton of points there. Durability wise hosts are obviously the best, and the 4-model units are nearly half as durable for the points, they are super frail (i.e. takes half the damage to kill 1pt of models). Some other observations on our sources of bonuses having done this: +atks Artefact - lightshard (once per game) BR charging GR vs 5+ models +to hit Olynder grief-stricken AOA - free with KOSOES, copy with DH DH if wounded Chainghast aura +to wound GoS CH charging DH if wounded Basically there are a ton less buff auras than we used to have, all the rerolls and effects on 6s we used to have are totally gone (though we also have a ton of debuffs now). There's also a number of different ways to ensure you get each bonus and given each is self-applied by some units you can possibly skimp on some support depending how you build your list.

Wave of terror -1 to save can stack! MSU might therefore be the order of the day..