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BloodTithe

The End Times Vs AoS :O

55 posts in this topic

BloodTithe    51

Time for another heavy topic.....

Now that AoS has been around for a while and is building momentum with some great figure releases and a fairly well established lore and game, I want to reflect on the differences between the two. Who here loved WHFB? 

Just to put things in context, i switched from WHFB to 40K before the end times was a thing. I had literally never heard of it until the last year. When I went to return to WHFB last year I was rather surprised to see it had already ended and I missed "that whole drama".

I personally am loving AoS at the moment but have been reading up on the end times and am blown away by the 5 end times books and by the lore. It looked like an epic series of campaigns. And there is a tremendous amount more detail in those books than a lot of the AoS books so far. It's kind of a shame that the whole thing ended and that a lot of truly excellent characters are gone. I feel that if I had got into WHFB during the exciting end times period, I probably would have been a bit mortified that it ended. Now I'm in a strange position of loving AoS and looking back on something I knew little about, which has a literal wealth of great content to read.

Anyone want to share their experiences of this transition? I'm sure lots of you can tell me a lot about what the end times were like as a collector/gamer  (lots of new story and models? heartbroken or pleased it ended? etc).

I did hear complaints that the 8th edition game was in a real state with its balancing. Any truth to this?

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Sactownbri    55

As fun as 8th was it also wasn't in a few ways. Cryptic tables, difficulty with terrain, overpowered magic and the game size/model count and lack of local players were all issues for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not stating AoS is way better, just personally more enjoyable. People are buying models and playing games again and at a significantly increased rate. Being able to go to the FLGS and get a pick up game makes the true difference for me. That was near impossible with 8th.


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BloodTithe    51
16 minutes ago, Sactownbri said:

As fun as 8th was it also wasn't in a few ways. Cryptic tables, difficulty with terrain, overpowered magic and the game size/model count and lack of local players were all issues for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not stating AoS is way better, just personally more enjoyable. People are buying models and playing games again and at a significantly increased rate. Being able to go to the FLGS and get a pick up game makes the true difference for me. That was near impossible with 8th.


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So 8th edition was fairly dead? Even with all the excitement of the end times stuff going on? I heard that some of the books for it were so popular that they actually broke the website!! 

It's funny about you mentioning how much easier it is to get a game now. Because it seems that AoS had a terribly negative reception on release but is massively growing at the moment. 

What were these cryptic table and game size issues you mentioned? 

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Sactownbri    55

Being unable to get product has long been a GW theme. I had a Bretonian army for 10 years and hadn't bought a single new thing for them since 5th ed. So yea I was very interested in anything new and ET scratched that itch. I have all the books and read them all cover to cover like a man in the desert reaching for water. To have Bretonia be pivotal and have a specific Bretonian campaign was amazing, so yea me and everyone else were excited.

 

The tables I mention are the hit/wound/combat resolution tables. For me they never clicked like the 40k tables did so I always had to refer to the book ( that's also likely due to the low frequency of games I played). As for size, my experience is that unless you are pushing specifically for a really hordie army the model count is about half on the table in AoS. That also means half the price of entry for new players.

 

 

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Elmir    56

I mentioned this in my introduction post. 

I had a Skaven army in 8th edition. Had it fully painted up, ready to play and I encountered nothing but extreme powerplay in every game I played. Massive units of elites with characters as deathstars. Stacking immunities, wards, etc. Every wizard being a lvl 4 that can lay waste to entire armies in one go,...

I really didn't enjoy it and ended up selling the army. A shame, because I always enjoyed the aesthetics of WHFB... But models without a decent game system to back it up, is not for me. Mind you, I only started AoS once I knew GW had the GHB out (for more of a balance, even though it's far from possible).

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Arkiham    1,129

The books were popular as end times took off story wise, then they started to mess with the rules, chaos became so broken, chaos warriors running around backed up by bray shamen hidden behind the heardstone giving them str and toughness 5/6 easily, 2+3+rr1? (Maybe) doombulls doing 5+ str8 attacks. 

Orghotts able to crush like twice his points with little to no damage taken as ws 10 and -1 to hit.

Skullreapers annihilating units they charged as like 5 s6 attacks per model.

 

Fun times for chaos. Not for others.

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I want to say one thing when i compare aos and whfb , when i wanted to play whfb i needed to learn 10000000 rules and it was for me terrible when i want to play aos i need to read one page a4 of rules and i can go to the table ( ofc after that i red GH to expand rules) when i want to play aos i just bought start collecting box my brother also go one and i can play it cost me 1/3rd money i needed to start play whfb. What is funny i bought start collecting and after one month i have 2k army of tzeentch wchich means for gw it was epic good choice to get new players. I believe aos need a lot of upgrades in rules but if u want a game wchich u can start after 5 min of reading with beer and u just want to chillout aos is for u.

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Thornshield    249

Pre-End Times

This was when I was most heavily invested in the system (having only started the hobby at the beginning of 8th) and going to tournaments regularly. I ran Bretonnians (arguably a mid/low-tier army) with the aim to win as many games as I could while looking fabulous. I also dabbled in campaigns and absorbed books & supplements like Tamurkhan & Monstrous Arcanum, slowly turning my focus from games to storyline.

The game itself did get a bit stale towards the end, but was balanced in a way (with TOs using comp to change the meta) and while there were combos or tricks which broke the immersion (conga-lines, clipping, hero walls), I wouldn't say AoS doesn't have it's own fair share of such instances.

End Times

I loved this period. It was crazy. While it was horribly unbalanced when they removed all the restrictions, it was also very liberating and made for some insane thematic games. Plus, the Brets got featured in quite a number of books after having no love for a long time.

It was during this time I organised my first event, which was a very casual, hobby driven get-together based on the Painting Masters (which I had the pleasure of attending) and used the End Times rules. Since then, I've been firmly on the narrative side of gaming (having fun with your opponent and story first, winning second).

And then the World ended.

Age of Sigmar

I won't lie, this was a huge shake-up; round bases, discontinued lines, the end of the storyline we knew and loved, a whole new system. I wasn't instantly sold, but I remember telling @Chris Tomlin that I'll go where the community goes. While I disliked (and still do) the Stormcast (and Sigmar), the rest of the lore really captured my attention.

It was during this time where I stopped going to tournaments and playing games due to time-constraints, which was a real shame. However, the simplicity of the system's core rules made it the right choice for time-poor players like myself and also returning players who actually preferred an easier entry point as opposed to complex rules. I did manage to squeeze in jointly-running Realms at War 2016, which jump-started my hobby mojo.

AoS is also a great sandbox, where the players have the flexibility to tell their own stories while GW write up characters that would eventually be as memorable as those in the Old World. Elements from the Old World can still be brought into the Mortal Realms - we've seen Tomb Kings and Kislev aesthetics in the Black Library books. My Bretonnians are retired though, I like to think they were definitely killed off and don't fit in well in the new setting. So I've started collecting a Slaanesh force instead (despite the Dark Prince being missing).

This is the present, which I am enjoying, but thanks for posting a topic like this so I could reminisce.

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Sleboda    1,000

End Times games, story, and product were all awesome. I loved all of it. 

What wasn't awesome was the incredibly short shelf life.  Those books were not cheap, and in the blink of an eye they were effectively rendered obsolete. 

It was a perfect example of Old GW deceitful cash grab BS.

I learned my lesson.  I wanted the 40K Gathering Storm and Magnus books, but thought "have a care ... wasted cash likely. " I was right,  so by skipping them and seeing them be tossed out mere months after release,  I could feel good about my non-buy.

Lesson: By models first, books as a maybe. Incidentally, this is why I'm not getting the limited ed 40K book either.

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VBS    78
23 minutes ago, BloodTithe said:

So 8th edition was fairly dead? Even with all the excitement of the end times stuff going on? I heard that some of the books for it were so popular that they actually broke the website!! 

I never really invested in 8th edition, but I believe t had many issues that put people off. Mainly the horde driven meta, overpowered magic and many combo stuff. I also had the impression it was just like "there", as if there weren't many efforts by GW to make it appealing. Preparing the ET + AoS might be a reasonable explanation though.

And yeah, the ET were incredibly popular. The interest in WFB skyrocketed (limited editions+hadback books sold out within minutes!) and overall those were some crazy months. The lore and rules were quite crazy (and unbalanced) but I doubt GW ever put something as random as that! 

It ended really abruptly which explains the backlash on AoS. If GW actually explained the anticipated changes as they did with 40k, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad. At least they learnt the lesson.  I think everyone can agree that the transition could have been handled in a more delicate way :P

I also thought that GW could have easily exploited the ET success to extend it over a few month (the whole story went waaay too fast with lots of plot holes) and accessorily, smoothen the transition. 

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BloodTithe    51
1 minute ago, Sleboda said:

End Times games, story, and product were all awesome. I loved all of it. 

What wasn't awesome was the incredibly short shelf life.  Those books were not cheap, and in the blink of an eye they were effectively rendered obsolete. 

It was a perfect example of Old GW deceitful cash grab BS.

I learned my lesson.  I wanted the 40K Gathering Storm and Magnus books, but thought "have a care ... wasted cash likely. " I was right,  so by skipping them and seeing them be tossed out mere months after release,  I could feel good about my non-buy.

Lesson: By models first, books as a maybe. Incidentally, this is why I'm not getting the limited ed 40K book either.

I feel your pain. Very strongly. It's the EXACT reason I'm not rushing out to buy the new 40k stuff. It will be updated so fast.... what's the point. And the gathering storm stuff is almost criminal how obsolete it became. The one pro to the end times books were that they were mainly story based. A good story never dies :) and you are right. The story of the end times is superb 

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BloodTithe    51
1 minute ago, VBS said:

I never really invested in 8th edition, but I believe t had many issues that put people off. Mainly the horde driven meta, overpowered magic and many combo stuff. I also had the impression it was just like "there", as if there weren't many efforts by GW to make it appealing. Preparing the ET + AoS might be a reasonable explanation though.

And yeah, the ET were incredibly popular. The interest in WFB skyrocketed (limited editions+hadback books sold out within minutes!) and overall those were some crazy months. The lore and rules were quite crazy (and unbalanced) but I doubt GW ever put something as random as that! 

It ended really abruptly which explains the backlash on AoS. If GW actually explained the anticipated changes as they did with 40k, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad. At least they learnt the lesson.  I think everyone can agree that the transition could have been handled in a more delicate way :P

I also thought that GW could have easily exploited the ET success to extend it over a few month (the whole story went waaay too fast with lots of plot holes) and accessorily, smoothen the transition. 

It just seems like the end times had such a fantastic story. And immense excitement generated over it. It does make me wonder if they could have put the effort of creating AoS into making WHFB as popular as AoS is now. It truly does seem to have ended out of nowhere (even if it was called the end times!). I mean abaddons crusade in 40k went on for like what over 10 years?! And the end times pumped out about 200x more content and story in next to no time at all 

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BloodTithe    51
14 minutes ago, Thornshield said:

Pre-End Times

This was when I was most heavily invested in the system (having only started the hobby at the beginning of 8th) and going to tournaments regularly. I ran Bretonnians (arguably a mid/low-tier army) with the aim to win as many games as I could while looking fabulous. I also dabbled in campaigns and absorbed books & supplements like Tamurkhan & Monstrous Arcanum, slowly turning my focus from games to storyline.

The game itself did get a bit stale towards the end, but was balanced in a way (with TOs using comp to change the meta) and while there were combos or tricks which broke the immersion (conga-lines, clipping, hero walls), I wouldn't say AoS doesn't have it's own fair share of such instances.

End Times

I loved this period. It was crazy. While it was horribly unbalanced when they removed all the restrictions, it was also very liberating and made for some insane thematic games. Plus, the Brets got featured in quite a number of books after having no love for a long time.

It was during this time I organised my first event, which was a very casual, hobby driven get-together based on the Painting Masters (which I had the pleasure of attending) and used the End Times rules. Since then, I've been firmly on the narrative side of gaming (having fun with your opponent and story first, winning second).

And then the World ended.

Age of Sigmar

I won't lie, this was a huge shake-up; round bases, discontinued lines, the end of the storyline we knew and loved, a whole new system. I wasn't instantly sold, but I remember telling @Chris Tomlin that I'll go where the community goes. While I disliked (and still do) the Stormcast (and Sigmar), the rest of the lore really captured my attention.

It was during this time where I stopped going to tournaments and playing games due to time-constraints, which was a real shame. However, the simplicity of the system's core rules made it the right choice for time-poor players like myself and also returning players who actually preferred an easier entry point as opposed to complex rules. I did manage to squeeze in jointly-running Realms at War 2016, which jump-started my hobby mojo.

AoS is also a great sandbox, where the players have the flexibility to tell their own stories while GW write up characters that would eventually be as memorable as those in the Old World. Elements from the Old World can still be brought into the Mortal Realms - we've seen Tomb Kings and Kislev aesthetics in the Black Library books. My Bretonnians are retired though, I like to think they were definitely killed off and don't fit in well in the new setting. So I've started collecting a Slaanesh force instead (despite the Dark Prince being missing).

This is the present, which I am enjoying, but thanks for posting a topic like this so I could reminisce.

My pleasure. Reading the end times books is making me reminisce too. And wow Slaanesh?! Interesting choice. I've gone Skaven at the moment. Move over dark prince and make room for the great horned rat ?

An interesting thing I've found out recently is how many models seem to have been released during the end times that I assumed were new to AoS!

I think you hit on something key here: I literally love the simplicity of AoS. It is so beginner friendly. Sure it could probably do with an advanced rules section, but it's surprisingly solid for 4 pages of rules.

You hate stormcast? I find the concept quite intriguing. But as much as I love the lore of AoS I think the end times seemed better at the moment. The realms just don't seem to have the layered history that the old world had. 

I also wasn't sold on AoS at first but I've come to embrace it. I just wonder if getting people into AoS could also lead to a small revival of 8th edition so I can catch up on what I missed out on :)

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences though. It's exactly what I was looking for.

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VBS    78
2 minutes ago, BloodTithe said:

It just seems like the end times had such a fantastic story. And immense excitement generated over it. It does make me wonder if they could have put the effort of creating AoS into making WHFB as popular as AoS is now. It truly does seem to have ended out of nowhere (even if it was called the end times!). I mean abaddons crusade in 40k went on for like what over 10 years?! And the end times pumped out about 200x more content and story in next to no time at all 

I hear ya. 

Aside of all the rushed story and awesome randomness that was the ET, to me it was a symptome that WFB was not dead. It was simply under anesthesia because of lazy/incompetent GW attitude. They just kept on churning army books every 4-5 months while adding no-depth the lore or balance to the game. This was the issue.

At least now we see that they listen the community and add periodical changes, but when I think of WFB, I will always have a bitter state in my mouth because of "what would have been" if GW actually invested half they efforts they do in AoS for a post-ET setting in the Old World.

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Ollie Grimwood    545

Knowing the lead times on GW products AoS was probably in the planning stages before 8th even came out.

 

I loved the End Times it was good things got to end and it helped with the grieving.

 

Ultimately I believe the World that Was needed to go. From what I've gleaned from the interviews GW writers have done the whole thing had reached a creative dead end. AoS just provides so much more in terms of creative opportunity both for writers and hobbiests. It means we get new themes and directions rather than just rehashes of the same old stories.

 

 

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Oppenheimer    179

Rules wise I like AoS better in general. The only problems on that front is lack of restriction on shooting, weakness of 5 wound heroes and that summoning is either broken or useless. I also find it hard to find games to field the big bads like Alarielle as most players around here have tiny armies and only play 1000 points or so.

The lore is what I miss. Reading old world books like Drachenfel compared to the boring garbage that is anything starring stormcasts.

Actually, that's the problem. Sigmarines. They're dull and clog up the release schedule and the lore. Things would be so much better off without them like in the old world.

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Having played WFB since 4th edition all the way through to AoS, I can happily report I've loved the whole journey! 

Yes, WFB had a lot of rules, but it had a lot of rules. I knew that when I got into it, and I never felt that that held the game back. It was what it was. 

The End Times was a literal rollercoaster! Every book added something, both to the game on the table, and to the story. Each book was a hugely anticipated release. And when the news broke that the world had been destroyed - well, everything went crazy, with wild speculation everywhere.

AoS was a shock.

But it was still a game of toy soldiers, and with just a few army building house rules, I was still enjoying rolling dice and moving my figs around terrain. Yes, with hindsight, WFB looks clunky and over complicated now. My photos of fantasy battles look dull and static. 

But in my mind, that's just because of the beauty of the new ruleset, rather than it being a damning of WFB.

So, in conclusion, AoS vs End Times? A classic 5-5 draw.?

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BloodTithe    51
14 minutes ago, The Nameless One said:

Having played WFB since 4th edition all the way through to AoS, I can happily report I've loved the whole journey! 

Yes, WFB had a lot of rules, but it had a lot of rules. I knew that when I got into it, and I never felt that that held the game back. It was what it was. 

The End Times was a literal rollercoaster! Every book added something, both to the game on the table, and to the story. Each book was a hugely anticipated release. And when the news broke that the world had been destroyed - well, everything went crazy, with wild speculation everywhere.

AoS was a shock.

But it was still a game of toy soldiers, and with just a few army building house rules, I was still enjoying rolling dice and moving my figs around terrain. Yes, with hindsight, WFB looks clunky and over complicated now. My photos of fantasy battles look dull and static. 

But in my mind, that's just because of the beauty of the new ruleset, rather than it being a damning of WFB.

So, in conclusion, AoS vs End Times? A classic 5-5 draw.?

I wonder if they could have literally just added the AoS rule set to the end times and kept the story rolling though. Or maybe at least lengthened it? I guess it was cool that GW actually did conclude the whole thing. Just a shame they saved all the best stuff till last when it was too late. It almost would have been less shocking and disappointing for people if they had of just let it fizzle out and rebooted it without the epic end times 

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BloodTithe    51
29 minutes ago, Oppenheimer said:

Rules wise I like AoS better in general. The only problems on that front is lack of restriction on shooting, weakness of 5 wound heroes and that summoning is either broken or useless. I also find it hard to find games to field the big bads like Alarielle as most players around here have tiny armies and only play 1000 points or so.

The lore is what I miss. Reading old world books like Drachenfel compared to the boring garbage that is anything starring stormcasts.

Actually, that's the problem. Sigmarines. They're dull and clog up the release schedule and the lore. Things would be so much better off without them like in the old world.

I know it's a general consensus that  sigmarines are boring but I actually quite like their concept. But yes it is immensely shallow next to the old world. 

And lol alarielle plus 3 units of dryads. Perfect 1000 pt army if you aren't fussed about winning ? I actually quite like 1000 points as a standard size. It's pretty cheap and the games don't go on too long. I'm not afraid of fielding 1000pts with a huge behemoth ?

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BloodTithe    51
46 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Knowing the lead times on GW products AoS was probably in the planning stages before 8th even came out.

 

I loved the End Times it was good things got to end and it helped with the grieving.

 

Ultimately I believe the World that Was needed to go. From what I've gleaned from the interviews GW writers have done the whole thing had reached a creative dead end. AoS just provides so much more in terms of creative opportunity both for writers and hobbiests. It means we get new themes and directions rather than just rehashes of the same old stories.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

That's a very good point. Creative block can be a real issue. And yet look at how incredible the end times lore is. 5 end times books are crammed with masses of story. They could have maybe just dragged it out a bit longer ?

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BloodTithe    51
1 hour ago, VBS said:

I hear ya. 

Aside of all the rushed story and awesome randomness that was the ET, to me it was a symptome that WFB was not dead. It was simply under anesthesia because of lazy/incompetent GW attitude. They just kept on churning army books every 4-5 months while adding no-depth the lore or balance to the game. This was the issue.

At least now we see that they listen the community and add periodical changes, but when I think of WFB, I will always have a bitter state in my mouth because of "what would have been" if GW actually invested half they efforts they do in AoS for a post-ET setting in the Old World.

Totally agree with you. It will always be a "what if..." situation. I think the story had far more to give. It would be cool to use some AoS rules to act out some end times scenarios though I guess? Most of the old models seem to have warscrolls

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Killax    806

I think it's much better for the game to have models represented this way, as the spread out units allow for much more dynamic in models and typically this does look better. By comparison we saw that WFB had some really cramped units. This could have been solved in different ways but ultimately Age of Sigmar armies dont look bad on the army either.

I personally think that End Times did what it had to do, close the doors. As a result I can't comment on how good or bad this was.

What I do think is that AoS is somewhat diluted too much and it still is. Not in how units are designed so much but much more in how wording is inconsistent, meaning abilities arn't easy to read at all and how Alliances work out. The use of keywords is available but not optimally used. All I can hope is that AoS continues to improve, which will give it back some good form of WFB. 

 

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BloodTithe    51
2 minutes ago, Sadysaneto said:

My two cents:

 

In the end of the day, aos is just wfb 9th ed.

Yes and no. It's a continuation of the story technically. But destroying the old world also killed the best characters and storylines in the series in a pretty final way. Those old stories are dead. They are so irrelevant now that they even occurred before the age of myth! And it was almost all for nothing in the end. Because the bad guys won and yet all died along with the old world.

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Ollie Grimwood    545
That's a very good point. Creative block can be a real issue. And yet look at how incredible the end times lore is. 5 end times books are crammed with masses of story. They could have maybe just dragged it out a bit longer


It was great but I think that was because it was so cataclysmic if it had been spun out for longer it wouldn't have had the impact. The block was lifted but only so they could destroy it otherwise it would have just been a more ruined version of the same old.




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