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The End Times Vs AoS :O


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7 minutes ago, BloodTithe said:

Yes and no. It's a continuation of the story technically. But destroying the old world also killed the best characters and storylines in the series in a pretty final way. Those old stories are dead. They are so irrelevant now that they even occurred before the age of myth! And it was almost all for nothing in the end. Because the bad guys won and yet all died along with the old world.

I get your point. And i agree with them. But still, imo, it doesnt invalidate a "new edition".

Like you said its a continuation.

I see eot as dc crisis on infinite earths.

Aos is post crisis dc.

But, like i said, just my 2c on it. 

 

:)

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49 minutes ago, Oppenheimer said:

Rules wise I like AoS better in general. The only problems on that front is lack of restriction on shooting, weakness of 5 wound heroes and that summoning is either broken or useless. I also find it hard to find games to field the big bads like Alarielle as most players around here have tiny armies and only play 1000 points or so.

The lore is what I miss. Reading old world books like Drachenfel compared to the boring garbage that is anything starring stormcasts.

Actually, that's the problem. Sigmarines. They're dull and clog up the release schedule and the lore. Things would be so much better off without them like in the old world.

I'd beg to disagree. Stormcasts are fine lore wise and can have a good spot like in Mortarch of Night or City of Secrets (as something that is alien and potentially terrifying to outsiders). Thing is, it may be a different cup of tea.

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1 hour ago, BloodTithe said:

The one pro to the end times books were that they were mainly story based. A good story never dies :) and you are right. The story of the end times is superb 

The story - the way they brought sooooo many old threads together - the way they eviscerated the soul of Bretonnia (the blighters deserved it, I say) - it was all great.  It absolutely gutted me to see Nehekhara crushed and wiped away, but I was invested by the pain - a hallmark of a good story.

The books are still good for art and possible scenarios if you adapt them to AoS, but the rules are all useless.  I bought 12 morghasts and all three mortarchs (plus a bunch of other stuff) based on the rules presented in the books.  Now I would not have done so. Maybe 4 morghasts and 1 or 2 mortarchs.  That's money GW would have had from me anyway, but more honestly and on other things, had I known.

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2 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Knowing the lead times on GW products AoS was probably in the planning stages before 8th even came out.

 

I loved the End Times it was good things got to end and it helped with the grieving.

 

Ultimately I believe the World that Was needed to go. From what I've gleaned from the interviews GW writers have done the whole thing had reached a creative dead end. AoS just provides so much more in terms of creative opportunity both for writers and hobbiests. It means we get new themes and directions rather than just rehashes of the same old stories.

 

 

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So this.

 

The world in 8th had been filled up. How long can you say "watch out! Chaos is coming!! " Without them actually arriving.

It would have turned into 40k with failbadon, a joke. The might of chaos nothing more than a joke.

 

I hindsight I'd  have liked it to end differently.

 

With....( in short)

chaos winning and forcing their way into people's homelands , the skaven overunning lustria forcing the slaan to open portals to escape or be wiped out 

The elves learning of this ritual and locations of hidden and long dormant portals from the slaan, (but have been dormant as of the slaan preventing their activation), in a attempt to save the other races, they open these portals and people flee through, the time scales being vastly different (like the layers of inception, so one minute in old world was 100 years) in the new realms, with everyone fleeing and attempting to shut the gates behind them.

This allows the new realms to be populated and civilizations built, alliances made between the gods and then ultimately for Chaos' arrival. With the world that was still there but entirely and utterly corrupted by chaos.

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21 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

So this.

 

The world in 8th had been filled up. How long can you say "watch out! Chaos is coming!! " Without them actually arriving.

It would have turned into 40k with failbadon, a joke. The might of chaos nothing more than a joke.

 

I hindsight I'd  have liked it to end differently.

 

With....( in short)

chaos winning and forcing their way into people's homelands , the skaven overunning lustria forcing the slaan to open portals to escape or be wiped out 

The elves learning of this ritual and locations of hidden and long dormant portals from the slaan, (but have been dormant as of the slaan preventing their activation), in a attempt to save the other races, they open these portals and people flee through, the time scales being vastly different (like the layers of inception, so one minute in old world was 100 years) in the new realms, with everyone fleeing and attempting to shut the gates behind them.

This allows the new realms to be populated and civilizations built, alliances made between the gods and then ultimately for Chaos' arrival. With the world that was still there but entirely and utterly corrupted by chaos.

Probably the coolest idea ever. This would have been literally amazing. And would explain why some characters survived. 

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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

The story - the way they brought sooooo many old threads together - the way they eviscerated the soul of Bretonnia (the blighters deserved it, I say) - it was all great.  It absolutely gutted me to see Nehekhara crushed and wiped away, but I was invested by the pain - a hallmark of a good story.

The books are still good for art and possible scenarios if you adapt them to AoS, but the rules are all useless.  I bought 12 morghasts and all three mortarchs (plus a bunch of other stuff) based on the rules presented in the books.  Now I would not have done so. Maybe 4 morghasts and 1 or 2 mortarchs.  That's money GW would have had from me anyway, but more honestly and on other things, had I known.

I sent GW a super angry email when 8th edition 40k was announced. I complained about the same stuff: my armies are built around lists in books that are only a couple of months old and are now irrelevant. I therefore felt duped into spending money in a way that I wouldn't have because they made me believe 7th edition had more longevity. I also complained that people could have got into 40k a week before their offer of giving people vouchers for their codex purchase. And if they were super dedicated and passionate they could have spent literally hundreds on the codex books. All for nothing. It doesn't sit right with me at all. And sure people can say "yer but you can still play the old edition" but it isn't the same. And the player Base moves on. 

But yer the story stuff is at least still good. 

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3 hours ago, BloodTithe said:

I sent GW a super angry email when 8th edition 40k was announced. I complained about the same stuff: my armies are built around lists in books that are only a couple of months old and are now irrelevant. I therefore felt duped into spending money in a way that I wouldn't have because they made me believe 7th edition had more longevity. I also complained that people could have got into 40k a week before their offer of giving people vouchers for their codex purchase. And if they were super dedicated and passionate they could have spent literally hundreds on the codex books. All for nothing. It doesn't sit right with me at all. And sure people can say "yer but you can still play the old edition" but it isn't the same. And the player Base moves on. 

But yer the story stuff is at least still good. 

Sending GW a 'super angry email' based on what you wrote here seems pretty unwarranted.

If they actually took your argument to heart, they would never be able to make any changes or put out any new content, that had an effect on previously released content. Which, to me, is simply a silly expectation to have.

There will always be someone who could have spent a million euros on stuff the day before GW announces a change. This time they even graciously decided to give people their money back if they had previously bought something within a certain time frame, which is more than most any other company does.

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I'd love to know if anyone actually read the end times novels too. I'm very tempted with them.....
And isn't it time we had elves return to AoS? And maybe heavily armoured dwarves back again?


I read the Lord of the End Times, pretty good and tied up a few characters that I'd read in other Black Library stuff. They did a special offer on the Elf ones but I decided not to bother as I was over it by then. Though not specifically and End Times book I did also read Slayer to see how that ended although none of the post Bill King ones were much cop (to be fair the whole series peeked early at Skaven Slayer)

Interestingly my phone autocorrected Elf to Aelf perhaps it's trying to tell us something


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I quit WHFB during the transition from 7th to 8th edition. I played Wood Elves at the time and had been hearing rumors of a WE book coming for a while, but then when 8th started to show up it looked like the WE update was getting pushed further and further off. Add to that the movement changes which made Wood Elves even less distinct, and I felt pretty done. 

I got back into AoS with Total War: Warhammer and went back and read up on the End Times. While certainly often ridiculous, I appreciate how much work GW put into fleshing out the story and giving the setting an epic send-off. I can't speak to the gameplay at all, but I imagine it was quite an amazing and horrible time to be a lore enthusiast. 

My one caution with comparing AoS to WHFB in terms of lore is that the End Times was the culmination of decades of WHFB books. There was a great deal out there to work with. AoS is just in its infancy, and while it is a bit of a continuation of WHFB I think GW intends to distance itself from the old lore over time. When viewed in this frame, it's understandable why the new lore isn't quite as well developed and engrossing as WHFB.

Personally, Stormcast aren't my thing. The back story is not bad, but the obvious similarity to Space Marines leaves a real bad taste in my mouth. I also get a real feel of "well, everything has to be big armored dudes now." I know that isn't strictly true, but it's definitely a trend. My biggest worry is that GW will focus on Stormcast in the way they do SMs in 40k. Giving the most popular factions more and more attention at the cost of others becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy with no real way to break the cycle. 

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I loved the End Times, couldn't put the books down. I thought the reverence they showed to the decades spanning history of the game was amazing and that it was the best send off one could hope for. I have recently started to re-read the books again and although I know where it all goes, I am still picking up a few cool details that I missed the first time.

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Is this where I weigh in, as the guy who's put a fair amount of effort into bringing the End Times into Age of Sigmar?

 

WHFB had issues. Big ones. Both creatively and mechanically.

 

It's easy for us to forget, but the rules were literally bursting at the seams. Similiar to 40k ATM, half the army books would ignore the core rules, armies were left in the dust and a third to half of each army book was effectively "trash" units that few people cared for. Some things would have been simpler to fix than others, but it was clear that the desire to design armies that worked more like their fluff, and less like blocks of humans with +1 in one stat and -1 in another, was preeminant. The elves broke the system, Chaos played nothing like they were supposed to, and Dwarfs had effectively no changes since 6th edition. It was a mess. And it was all centered around a core rule system that is actually fairly solid, but very restrictive.

 

Creatively, the game was dead. 6th edition was the last time any real changes happened. That introduced the Ogres and the Tomb Kings. And these were fringe factions, existing at the edges of the setting. The Empire, Bretonnia, the Dwarfs and the Elfs were the old core. And nothing could be done to change the status of these. No invasion could have effect. No story could have risk. Someone reading about the setting in 6th edition would see very few differences in 8th. 40k could get away with this to a much larger degree, because the setting is so much larger. You can have real campaigns with permanent effects in 40k, because there's always room for more. It did have issues with "can't change the status quo" as well, such with failbaddon's Black Crusades, but all these minor events, even from the novels, could have real meaning.

 

So what makes the End Times so awesome? It both was, and wasn't. Nagash broke all the molds. It was a massive event, shaking the game up creatively and doing some wierd stuff mechanically. Khaine shook the game up mechanically, and Archaon broke it. We remember fondly Nagash and Glottkin, but the ET hype train slowed after Khaine. It was too much, both creatively and mechanically. Many didn't like the resolution to the Elven storyline. The End Times magic and Host of the Eternity King broke the game. Does anyone even remember Thanquol? And by Archaon, many were sceptics.

 

I loved every bit of it. I loved the scenarios. It was a creative outburst unlike anything we'd seen in WHFB. Even Storm of Chaos was a tired affair in comparison. But half the reason it was so creative, I imagine, is because it was the end. Even if not everyone knew it. We see clear tendencies in Nagash, Glottkin and even Khaine that they're preparing for something after the End Times. So even though they weren't sure then how absolute the End would be, nothing was sacred. It was a fest of bringing in loose ends, finishing storylines, telling epic tales and sending off a fantasy setting unlike anything we've seen. I don't know of any fantasy setting which has so thouroughly explored its own doom. Most settings are either saved or die in a "poof".

 

And that brings up why the End Times feels so much better than the Realmgate Wars. The ET was set in a world we knew, with characters we instictively cared for, with factions we knew and loved, and locations we'd all heard of. The Realmgate wars had to reestablish a setting, a stake, and a host of characters. All without leaning on the fantasy crutch of elves and dwarfs, or even humans. And make no mistake, elves and dwarfs are a crutch in fantasy, an excuse to include a different race without putting any sort of work into them (usually). Usually we don't mind, because everyone likes evles and dwarfs. But GW chose to not do that, and the dwarven faction they did introduce is fundamentally different from our idea of dwarfs, and so didn't ring true for many. I still think not bringing a real human faction into play yet is a mistake from GW. It's harder to connect with Stormcast, even if GW does a good job of humanising them. It's like a setting with space marines, but no imperial guard/civilians. It's a little soulless, because we need the "common" man to ground us and give us meaningful perspective in a setting filled with gods and demigods.

 

So there's some thoughts on the End Times and the Realmgate Wars. It's long, but I have spent some time working with this stuff.

 

 

If you'd like to play the ET scenarios, but use the Age of Sigmar rules, check out the battletome.

 

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7 hours ago, Greyshadow said:

I loved the End Times, couldn't put the books down. I thought the reverence they showed to the decades spanning history of the game was amazing and that it was the best send off one could hope for. I have recently started to re-read the books again and although I know where it all goes, I am still picking up a few cool details that I missed the first time.

Excellent. That's what I wanted to hear. It looks like I will invest in them. They currently sell omnibus editions on amazon that are very well priced. But have nearly 1000 pages each ? I guess I'll be busy reading for a while. Shame that the individual books are hard to come by here in the UK. And I'm not a huge fan of ebooks. 

I can't wait to read the rise of the horned rat ?

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10 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I quit WHFB during the transition from 7th to 8th edition. I played Wood Elves at the time and had been hearing rumors of a WE book coming for a while, but then when 8th started to show up it looked like the WE update was getting pushed further and further off. Add to that the movement changes which made Wood Elves even less distinct, and I felt pretty done. 

I got back into AoS with Total War: Warhammer and went back and read up on the End Times. While certainly often ridiculous, I appreciate how much work GW put into fleshing out the story and giving the setting an epic send-off. I can't speak to the gameplay at all, but I imagine it was quite an amazing and horrible time to be a lore enthusiast. 

My one caution with comparing AoS to WHFB in terms of lore is that the End Times was the culmination of decades of WHFB books. There was a great deal out there to work with. AoS is just in its infancy, and while it is a bit of a continuation of WHFB I think GW intends to distance itself from the old lore over time. When viewed in this frame, it's understandable why the new lore isn't quite as well developed and engrossing as WHFB.

Personally, Stormcast aren't my thing. The back story is not bad, but the obvious similarity to Space Marines leaves a real bad taste in my mouth. I also get a real feel of "well, everything has to be big armored dudes now." I know that isn't strictly true, but it's definitely a trend. My biggest worry is that GW will focus on Stormcast in the way they do SMs in 40k. Giving the most popular factions more and more attention at the cost of others becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy with no real way to break the cycle. 

I dunno if you compare them to fyreslayers which are also new..... they have hardly any armour ! And they are an updated dwarf army (typically head to toe in heavy armour). So I don't think GW want to make it all about heavy armour and nothing else. The space marines comparison is very mild in my opinion. They are super solders working for the God king *cough*emperor*cough* but that's about it 

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On 6/3/2017 at 11:01 AM, Sadysaneto said:

My two cents:

 

In the end of the day, aos is just wfb 9th ed.

Other than the setting, the tech level, the magic system, the scale of the models, the name of the game, the style, the way units form up, pretty much every rule about combat, shooting, movement, facing (lack of it), the characters involved, the way "template" attacks work, how leadership/bravey works, how psychology is handled, the types of scenarios, victory determination, mixing of troops from different factions, item costing and selection, how banners and musicians work, phase sequence, turn order, and just the basic way the things play out ... you just may be right.

:)

 

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I know it's a general consensus that  sigmarines are boring but I actually quite like their concept. But yes it is immensely shallow next to the old world. 
And lol alarielle plus 3 units of dryads. Perfect 1000 pt army if you aren't fussed about winning [emoji38] I actually quite like 1000 points as a standard size. It's pretty cheap and the games don't go on too long. I'm not afraid of fielding 1000pts with a huge behemoth [emoji28]

Agree about game size, we usually play between 1000 to 1500 just for the shear speed factor. 90 minutes and done usually. And we throw in some of the big guys but our meta is more fun/narrative so they are situational.


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4 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Other than the setting, the tech level, the magic system, the scale of the models, the name of the game, the style, the way units form up, pretty much every rule about combat, shooting, movement, facing (lack of it), the characters involved, the way "template" attacks work, how leadership/bravey works, how psychology is handled, the types of scenarios, victory determination, mixing of troops from different factions, item costing and selection, how banners and musicians work, phase sequence, turn order, and just the basic way the things play out ... you just may be right.

:)

 

So 40k 8th ed. Is a new game.

Understood.

:)

Now that i think about it, aos may be more similar to 1st ed. Wfb than 8th was....

It is more 6th than 8th was.

?

 

My point is - the game had some pretty massive changes between edition. Every single thing you listed has changed over editions.

Aos was just that.

:)

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12 minutes ago, Zeratan said:

I just want to remind everyone that End Times didn't change anything in GW's financial situation. Seriously take a look into their reports, they're available on their website.

A lot of the selling outs was due to artificial scarcity. Like the SCE limited edition which was sold out in 5 minutes... but there were only like 300 copies.

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13 minutes ago, Zeratan said:

I just want to remind everyone that End Times didn't change anything in GW's financial situation. Seriously take a look into their reports, they're available on their website.

Maybe because it wasn't promoted enough or something? I mean I used to collect fantasy and yet had zero idea the end times was a thing. 

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1 minute ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:

A lot of the selling outs was due to artificial scarcity. Like the SCE limited edition which was sold out in 5 minutes... but there were only like 300 copies.

SCE? What's that? And how do you know how limited they were?

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13 minutes ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:

Stormcast eternals. Dude, GW says how many copies a limited edition does have. They've always done.

Ah okay. I can't say I've ever brought a limited edition product from GW. Aside from a figure from a long long time ago. I don't especially see the point when all the books become irrelevant super quickly. But yer you are right.... that does make it seem like things are more popular than they are 

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17 hours ago, BloodTithe said:

Excellent. That's what I wanted to hear. It looks like I will invest in them. They currently sell omnibus editions on amazon that are very well priced. But have nearly 1000 pages each ? I guess I'll be busy reading for a while. Shame that the individual books are hard to come by here in the UK. And I'm not a huge fan of ebooks. 

I can't wait to read the rise of the horned rat ?

I found the best way to read the lore books was in bites of four to eight pages at a time. It is often like a dense history book. The last chapter of Nagash was mostly about one apocalyptic battle for example. There are some fantastic box outs though that read like passages from a novel and the art and miniature photography is stunning. I think it will keep you reading for quite a while!

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