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charge/pile in no more enemys


ageofpaddsmar

Question

Say model A charges model B . Model C is 4 inches from model A. Model B has a rule where it can move out of combat (wary fighter) A hasn't attacked yet so B wary fighters out of this combat. Can A then use 3 inch pile in to get within an inch of model C and attack? Model A did charge in the charge phase

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26 minutes ago, Ratamaplata said:

Yes.

You can pile in if you successfully charged or end up within 3" of an enemy model.

After pile in you can attack any model in range of melee weapons.

The rules around this are really simple and, I think, should be easy to follow. But they allow a lot of tactical nuance.

Ratamaplata is absolutely right, if Unit B was a bit closer (but outside of pile-in range), piling in to Unit C brings your weapons in range of B, so you can fill your boots and still punch the skink in the face.

As correctly observed, it's a simple 3" mechanic but you can use it to your advantage massively.

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I have the same opinion as wayniak here.

There are two different conditions that allow to pile in.

"You have sucessfully charged this turn"

or "you are in 3" to enemy models".

 

After the first condition is true in this case the unit is able to pile In.

In Step One of the Combat Sequence there is no point that a unit can only pile in to models that are already in close combat, it only says that the unit can pile in up to 3" to the next enemy model (which would be one of the models in 4" in this case).

In most cases there will be no point to pile in, because the weaponrange won't be enough but he would be able to.

The Point in the FAQ with the high Warden is another situation. In this case the High Warden didn't charge and wasn't in 3", so no condition to pile in was true.

 

But this should be a rare situation because in most cases a unit can't flee during combat and the nearest model should be in 1/2" in most cases.

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On 29/05/2017 at 11:15 PM, Ratamaplata said:

If you made a successful charge, you get to pile in. Doesn't matter how far away the nearest model is.

This is the correct answer. You could pile in to something 40" away from you as long as you made a successful charge that turn and its the closest enemy model to you.

All the FAQ info about the High Elf Griffon below is purely to address a situation regarding a model that can pile in more than 3". It has nothing to do with being able to pile in with no enemy model within 3" and a successful charge.

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7 hours ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

Equally, though, it seems to me to open another can of worms - even if you can never get in range of the next nearest target, do you still pile in towards it for a 'free move'?

Yep. There was never any requirement for a pile-in to end within 3" of an enemy.

Bear in mind, even if your unit does have to be within 3" of an enemy to pile-in, there's still plenty of situations where individual models end up moving to within 3" of an enemy unit that wasn't within 3" beforehand.

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How can people take such an easy to understand rule and overcomplicate it?

If you charged successfully or end up within 3" you can pile in.

Even if you have a 6" pile in, the above restrictions still apply and you must move towards the closest enemy unless the ability overrides that requirement. 

Simple surely???

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2 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

I'm gonna second @wayniac here - given that it's only an "FAQ", not an errata/amendment, and the main rules say 'has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy', it would seem really weird to me if that answer was meant to effectively erase the bit about charging. I would think most people would understand it to mean that the second part (about being within 3") is not changed bu the increased pile-in movement. Failing that, if you insist on treating it as a rules amendment and on taking it literally, I could argue that it only applies to models with the ability to pile in 6", and not to anyone else. If you're going to start arguing about what "makes sense", I don't think you can only half-apply that approach. The context makes it quite clear that they are only talking about how a 6" pile in move modifies (or does not modify) the core rules.

1. Actually, he's only travelled 18", he just has a 2" range.

2. Morghast Harbingers can travel 21" in the charge and combat phase combined, and have a 1" range on top of that. I've not heard anyone try to argue that this isn't the case.

3. If you think he shouldn't ever be able to move 18" in these phases combined, you're either suggesting that he can't move 12" on the charge, or that he can't ever actually move 6" on the pile-in. If so, why do you think he has a rule that lets him pile-in up to 6", if you think it's a p-take for him to ever actually use it?

It is a rules errata, and comes under that section on the site. 

There's no issue with the 6" pile in move if your target is within 3", it's going to allow you to get optimum placement. Being able to hop into another combat that would ordinarily take another turn of movement/charging, however, seems a bit off. 

As I said before, if it turns out that a load of people have had this situation occur in games and everyone has rolled with cracking on and heading to the next unit, then awesome, I shall do the same henceforth. It would have turned the tide of a few games previously, especially where I've used Knights on the charge and one unit rolled well and killed the enemy leaving one redundant.

Equally, though, it seems to me to open another can of worms - even if you can never get in range of the next nearest target, do you still pile in towards it for a 'free move'? 

Still feels to me like piling in within 3" only, even on the charge, was the intention. Though I'm all up for being educated.

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I'm gonna second @wayniac here - given that it's only an "FAQ", not an errata/amendment, and the main rules say 'has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy', it would seem really weird to me if that answer was meant to effectively erase the bit about charging. I would think most people would understand it to mean that the second part (about being within 3") is not changed bu the increased pile-in movement. Failing that, if you insist on treating it as a rules amendment and on taking it literally, I could argue that it only applies to models with the ability to pile in 6", and not to anyone else. If you're going to start arguing about what "makes sense", I don't think you can only half-apply that approach. The context makes it quite clear that they are only talking about how a 6" pile in move modifies (or does not modify) the core rules.

3 hours ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

All in all, he's travelled 20" in the charge and combat phases. Bit of a p*ss-take, don't you think?

1. Actually, he's only travelled 18", he just has a 2" range.

2. Morghast Harbingers can travel 21" in the charge and combat phase combined, and have a 1" range on top of that. I've not heard anyone try to argue that this isn't the case.

3. If you think he shouldn't ever be able to move 18" in these phases combined, you're either suggesting that he can't move 12" on the charge, or that he can't ever actually move 6" on the pile-in. If so, why do you think he has a rule that lets him pile-in up to 6", if you think it's a p-take for him to ever actually use it?

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7 minutes ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

It's a bloody minefield, for a 4 page rule document. As I said I've certainly never encountered anyone using this method of hopping towards another enemy if the original target is dead. Certainly when it's happened to me, I've just left the unit on the spot and treated them as out of combat in the next turn. Many a game could have gone differently if I had an extra 4" to play with, or even 5", and for a few of the people I've played against!

It does make units such as Scyla Anfingrimm particularly OP in this regard if it is indeed a legal move. He has a 6" pile in, with a 3" weapon range, and doesn't need to end up closer to the nearest model, providing he lands where there are more models.

I still believe that when it comes to the charge aspect of the rule, you're assumed to have made a successful charge, and as such be within 1/2 an inch of your target. The second criteria is just to be, due to some circumstance, already in 3" of a unit. Either way, when you go to pile in, your enemy is within 3", and the FAQ'd rule applies.

If I had GW on speed dial, I'd give 'em a ring and find out. If I'm shooting myself in the foot every game, I'll my local gaming club know and pile in to my heart's merry content.

But you did make a successful charge.  Maybe I am applying more logic to it than I should (I did previously play Warmahordes and I'm also an applications developer) but you ended within 1/2" of your original target, so the charge was successful; the fact that the unit was wiped out (or is otherwise not within 3") is irrelevant as the condition is an "or" and not an "and" so either one satisfies it and would allow the unit to be selected, at which point they can pile in (6" in the case of some models).

In pseudocode:

# can_attack is defined as:
# 1. The unit charged this turn
# OR
# 2. The unit has one or more models within 3" of an enemy unit
if unit.can_attack()
    unit.move(PILE_IN_MOVE) # This is normally 3" but can be more for specific units
    unit.attack()

Which one triggered it is irrelevant; if the condition is satisfied, the unit can pile in whatever movement it can pile in (e.g. 6" for a High Warden) and attack.

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4 minutes ago, wayniac said:

It does say "unless otherwise specified" which if I'm not mistaken the clause of "has charged" would be.  What that FAQ is saying is if you can pile in 6" instead of 3", you can't pile in at a model 6" away (even though you could reach it with the extra pile in).  I think in your example that is actually a legal move if the High Warden charged that turn only, as he fulfills one of the requirements for being selected to attack.

In short, that FAQ is saying:  The criteria for attacking in the combat phase does not change (i.e. it stays "Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase") so a model who can pile in 6" still needs to meet that criteria; the distance needed doesn't change even if the model can pile-in further than 3".  In this example, the High Warden can pile in 6" so if he meets the criteria for attacking (i.e. charged or within 3" of an enemy unit) then he can move up to 6" (per his special rules), but the distance needed (3") doesn't become 6" even though he can pile-in 6".

It's a bloody minefield, for a 4 page rule document. As I said I've certainly never encountered anyone using this method of hopping towards another enemy if the original target is dead. Certainly when it's happened to me, I've just left the unit on the spot and treated them as out of combat in the next turn. Many a game could have gone differently if I had an extra 4" to play with, or even 5", and for a few of the people I've played against!

It does make units such as Scyla Anfingrimm particularly OP in this regard if it is indeed a legal move. He has a 6" pile in, with a 3" weapon range, and doesn't need to end up closer to the nearest model, providing he lands where there are more models.

I still believe that when it comes to the charge aspect of the rule, you're assumed to have made a successful charge, and as such be within 1/2 an inch of your target. The second criteria is just to be, due to some circumstance, already in 3" of a unit. Either way, when you go to pile in, your enemy is within 3", and the FAQ'd rule applies.

If I had GW on speed dial, I'd give 'em a ring and find out. If I'm shooting myself in the foot every game, I'll my local gaming club know and pile in to my heart's merry content.

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3 hours ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

In my opinion, the FAQ eliminated being able to do that. It quite clearly states that you can't pile in if a model from your unit is not within 3" of an enemy. Don't get me wrong mate, I get exactly where you're coming from - if you go off the rules alone, it does indeed say that to be eligible to pile in to the nearest enemy unit, you need to have charged or be within 3". However, the FAQ overrules it, which is Games Workshop's rules errata.

<snip>

As such, Games Workshop came out with their ruling that you cannot pile in if there are no enemy models within 3" of your unit:

FAQ.png.5dad586c386639e9c52552d54421893a.png

If you read the actual text, the answer provided by GW isn't "A: No, unless it charged this turn", the answer is a flat out no. That, coupled with the fact that every other rule in the game refers to 3" as the area in which you're counted as engaged with another unit, says to me they do not intend for your models to go on a jolly towards whatever they like if everything within 3" is dead when its their turn to attack.

That, in my opinion, is about as official as it gets. The game, and rules, are subject to different interpretations, so if you're keen to roll with your initial reading of the rules and to hell with the FAQ then go nuts, as long as you're having fun!

I think this interpretation is incorrect, and here is my reasoning:

The FAQ say "unless specifically stated otherwise" which if I'm not mistaken the clause of "has charged" would be.  What that FAQ is saying is if you can pile in 6" instead of 3", you can't pile in at a model 6" away (even though you could reach it with the extra pile in).  I think in your example that is actually a legal move if the High Warden charged that turn only, as he fulfills one of the requirements for being selected to attack.

In short, that FAQ is saying:  The criteria for attacking in the combat phase does not change (i.e. it stays "Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase") so a model who can pile in 6" still needs to meet one of those criteria in order to be selected to fight.

In this example, the High Warden can pile in 6" so if he meets the criteria for attacking (i.e. charged or within 3" of an enemy unit) then he can move up to 6" (per his special rules), but the distance needed (i.e. 3") doesn't become 6" even though he can pile-in 6".  In the example provided, the criteria is met (as he charged) so yes, he can pile in 6", but if he did not charge he would not be able to pile in as he would not meet the criteria (not having charged and having no enemy unit within 3") and could not pile in, even though his 6" pile in would let him engage another model.

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7 hours ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

Although your explanation is very thorough I still can't see anything official to stop it. Rules say a model that successfully charged gets to attack with all of its melee weapons. To make an attack part 1 is to pile in up to 3inches towards closest enemy model part 2 attack with its weapons. Now this is only if you made a successful charge. Obviously models with a 2" or 3" range CAN'T  just pile in if they are 5" away as they haven't charged. But if they did charge and another friendly unit wiped out their opponents before they got to attack (and another enemy unit was within 5") they could pile towards the other unit (providing it is now the closest ) and attack it.

In my opinion, the FAQ eliminated being able to do that. It quite clearly states that you can't pile in if a model from your unit is not within 3" of an enemy. Don't get me wrong mate, I get exactly where you're coming from - if you go off the rules alone, it does indeed say that to be eligible to pile in to the nearest enemy unit, you need to have charged or be within 3". However, the FAQ overrules it, which is Games Workshop's rules errata.

I'll give an example of why I'm almost certain Games Workshop do not intend for a pile-in to be legal outside of 3", and why I've not seen it be allowed in any game I've played and/or watched thus far. To explain, we'll take the High Elf Prince on Griffon, which is actually the example used in the FAQ (though the model is now called a High Warden).

So, we'll go with your trail of thought - that as long as you've charged, it doesn't matter if there are no enemy units within 3", you can still move towards the nearest enemy unit, and as long as your weapons are in range you can attack.

592da6a1dbb50_HW1.png.6ed2595c0a05e8c2b625043ea230d381.png

So here in Fig 1, a High Warden and a unit of Spireguard are going to charge an enemy model. It's 12" away, and both of them roll a double 6. Great, they can charge in. The High Warden player, though, is actually wanting to kill the model at the very top, so he's going to abuse the sh*t out of the rules in order to get there. A High Warden can pile in 6", and has a lance with a range of 2".

592da74074303_HW2.png.8c6c796c9f1c444a099d3a76f830f25b.png

In Fig 2, the charge was successful, they moved 12" and the Spireguard attacked first, and killed the enemy. It's now the High Warden's turn to attack. Now, going by your interpretation of the rules, he's charged, so he's totally within his right to pile in towards the nearest enemy model as per the rules. He can pile in 6", and has a weapon range of 2".

592da80b3e642_HW3.png.81553011807af356f120b13f2cf5241e.png

He piles in 6", and his lance and Griffon's attacks are all within range. All in all, he's travelled 20" in the charge and combat phases. Bit of a p*ss-take, don't you think?

As such, Games Workshop came out with their ruling that you cannot pile in if there are no enemy models within 3" of your unit:

FAQ.png.5dad586c386639e9c52552d54421893a.png

If you read the actual text, the answer provided by GW isn't "A: No, unless it charged this turn", the answer is a flat out no. That, coupled with the fact that every other rule in the game refers to 3" as the area in which you're counted as engaged with another unit, says to me they do not intend for your models to go on a jolly towards whatever they like if everything within 3" is dead when its their turn to attack.

That, in my opinion, is about as official as it gets. The game, and rules, are subject to different interpretations, so if you're keen to roll with your initial reading of the rules and to hell with the FAQ then go nuts, as long as you're having fun!

 

 

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2 hours ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

Say in the bottom diagram above That B was abit closer to C but still out of 3 inches could A pile in towards C and then attack B because it is now in range of its weapon. Because it legally piled in to C

Yes.

You can pile in if you successfully charged or end up within 3" of an enemy model.

After pile in you can attack any model in range of melee weapons.

The rules around this are really simple and, I think, should be easy to follow. But they allow a lot of tactical nuance.

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Although your explanation is very thorough I still can't see anything official to stop it. Rules say a model that successfully charged gets to attack with all of its melee weapons. To make an attack part 1 is to pile in up to 3inches towards closest enemy model part 2 attack with its weapons. Now this is only if you made a successful charge. Obviously models with a 2" or 3" range CAN'T  just pile in if they are 5" away as they haven't charged. But if they did charge and another friendly unit wiped out their opponents before they got to attack (and another enemy unit was within 5") they could pile towards the other unit (providing it is now the closest ) and attack it.

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7 hours ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

Right, in order to better explain it, I've gathered some evidence and drawn a diagram. The whole premise of the explanation is based around the idea that a unit is only counted as 'in combat' if it is within 3" of the enemy, as this is the pile in range. Outside of 3", you are not counted as fighting. Evidence of this can be found throughout the rules; specifically every time it says that you cannot end up within 3" of an enemy without charging.

In the FAQ, released in December 2016, it states the following:

As such, we can quite reasonably assume that if an enemy is outside 3", you can't pile in and attack, as their unit is more than 3" from the enemy. If a unit that can specifically pile in as far as 6" isn't allowed to pile in towards a unit it's not engaged with, why would any other unit be able to? Note this does not exclude a pile in move greater than 3" if your unit is within 3" of the enemy (such as half a unit being destroyed in a combat, leaving some models engaged, but other friendly models 4 or 5 inches away - they can still pile in and attack).

Charge.png.8a3a26820c40023d4760f2426fdade51.png

The diagram above shows Unit X making a successful charge against Unit B, which is, in this instance, the final remaining Skink in a unit of Skinks. The circle around X denotes its 3" pile in range. It made a successful charge, so it is within its rights to pile in towards a unit within 3". The Skink decides to use Wary Fighter, and drops back 5".

592cb436e486e_Charge2.png.4fe1e98ad03699dd1208b867300f2a31.png

In the above diagram, the Skink (Unit B) has successfully used Wary Fighter and dropped out of combat. This is a perfectly viable and very handy move. Unit A is 4" away, and therefore is not within pile-in range, which is 3". Unit C, however, is. Even though they were not the intended target for the charge, they are within 3", and Unit X made a successful charge, so it is perfectly acceptable for it to pile in towards C and get stuck in.

The rules state:

"Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase."

In this instance, to have successfully charged, you need to end up within 1/2" of an enemy model. Alternatively, to meet the second criteria for piling in, you need to have enemies within 3" of you due to an enemy charging a unit near you, or for some other reason ending up within 3". In either case, you're allowed your 3" move and can attack.

Things were getting a bit out of hand, as units that had a 2", or even 3" range, could effectively pile in to units that were 5" away - or even further for units with a long weapon range and a 6" pile in. When you're fighting a combat quite happily and all of a sudden a Khorne demon is sucked into the combat thanks to a 6" pile in, it can get a bit stupid. As such it was FAQ'd that the pile in is made against units within 3",  without question.

That is how I, and all my opponents, have played it since the FAQ.

I hope that goes some way to providing the clarity you seek.

FAQ link: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/warhammer_aos_rules_en.pdf

Say in the bottom diagram above That B was abit closer to C but still out of 3 inches could A pile in towards C and then attack B because it is now in range of its weapon. Because it legally piled in to C

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Right, in order to better explain it, I've gathered some evidence and drawn a diagram. The whole premise of the explanation is based around the idea that a unit is only counted as 'in combat' if it is within 3" of the enemy, as this is the pile in range. Outside of 3", you are not counted as fighting. Evidence of this can be found throughout the rules; specifically every time it says that you cannot end up within 3" of an enemy without charging.

In the FAQ, released in December 2016, it states the following:

Quote

Age of Sigmar FAQ:
Q: If a unit, like a High Elf Prince on Griffon, has the ability to pile in 6" rather than the standard 3", can they pile in and attack in the combat phase if their unit is more than 3" from the enemy?

A: No, unless specifically stated otherwise.

As such, we can quite reasonably assume that if an enemy is outside 3", you can't pile in and attack, as their unit is more than 3" from the enemy. If a unit that can specifically pile in as far as 6" isn't allowed to pile in towards a unit it's not engaged with, why would any other unit be able to? Note this does not exclude a pile in move greater than 3" if your unit is within 3" of the enemy (such as half a unit being destroyed in a combat, leaving some models engaged, but other friendly models 4 or 5 inches away - they can still pile in and attack).

Charge.png.8a3a26820c40023d4760f2426fdade51.png

The diagram above shows Unit X making a successful charge against Unit B, which is, in this instance, the final remaining Skink in a unit of Skinks. The circle around X denotes its 3" pile in range. It made a successful charge, so it is within its rights to pile in towards a unit within 3". The Skink decides to use Wary Fighter, and drops back 5".

592cb436e486e_Charge2.png.4fe1e98ad03699dd1208b867300f2a31.png

In the above diagram, the Skink (Unit B) has successfully used Wary Fighter and dropped out of combat. This is a perfectly viable and very handy move. Unit A is 4" away, and therefore is not within pile-in range, which is 3". Unit C, however, is. Even though they were not the intended target for the charge, they are within 3", and Unit X made a successful charge, so it is perfectly acceptable for it to pile in towards C and get stuck in.

The rules state:

"Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase."

In this instance, to have successfully charged, you need to end up within 1/2" of an enemy model. Alternatively, to meet the second criteria for piling in, you need to have enemies within 3" of you due to an enemy charging a unit near you, or for some other reason ending up within 3". In either case, you're allowed your 3" move and can attack.

Things were getting a bit out of hand, as units that had a 2", or even 3" range, could effectively pile in to units that were 5" away - or even further for units with a long weapon range and a 6" pile in. When you're fighting a combat quite happily and all of a sudden a Khorne demon is sucked into the combat thanks to a 6" pile in, it can get a bit stupid. As such it was FAQ'd that the pile in is made against units within 3",  without question.

That is how I, and all my opponents, have played it since the FAQ.

I hope that goes some way to providing the clarity you seek.

FAQ link: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/warhammer_aos_rules_en.pdf

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Its not just piling in though. My opponent said the rules say if a model charged or is withing 3inches it gets to pile in. 

Model A did charge and made it. He choose a different combat so i used skinks wary fighter ability to get them away from A. C was 4 inches away. Opponent said because what the rules says above (he charged) he gets to pile in to closest enemy(model C) he goes 3 inches bringing his 1 inch weapon in range. 

Would really love more people to comment and point out with good evidence if and how he is wrong

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No, you can't pile in towards an enemy that is 4" away, unless it's an enemy your unit is still in combat with. Say, for example, you charge ten models towards Unit A and Unit B. Unit B, due to some rule, drops out of range, but the rest of your unit is within 3" of Unit A. You can, in that case, move models that are further than 3" from Unit A, towards Unit A to continue the fight. 

If it's a hero, for example, and Unit A and Unit B are heroes in this instance, you charge and end up in combat with Unit B, and Unit A is 4" away. If Unit B leaves combat due to some special rule, you can't then pile in to a unit that was outside the 'combat zone' of 3". Games Workshop FAQ'd that even models that can pile in 6", can't get within 6" of a unit and pile in and attack.

If every unit in the game could pile in to within weapon range, not within 3", units with a 2" attack range would be able to pile in 5".

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you are only in close combat with units/models within 3" and you can only pile in to those units. a unit being 4" is simply out of range (in the same manner, unit C cannot pile in to unit A because it is out of range). if you want to pile in to the other unit as well, it needs to be within 3" when charging unit B. so when unit B leaves cc, you can do nothing else but wait for the next round

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