Kurnoth Hunters

[Oppenheimer]

17 hours ago, Azurious said:

I personally don't think theres a lot of room for tweaking with the points costs. Dryads are definitely fair given their excellent dmg output (for a battleline option) and solid durability against non specialists. All of our characters are reasonable. Durthu does seem expensive but he is a dmg monster and his shooting atk is essentially 3 hunters, combined with magic support to keep his wounds healthy he is quite durable and all in I think hes fair. TLA is a tank as we all know against anything r1 or less but is still vulnerable to mortal output and theres a lot of that, or rend 2 across the new tombs so again I think 300 is reasonable especially as hes a force multiplier first and foremost with mediocre damage output (unless your msu opponant happens to be in your woods). I don't have much experience with drycha or treelords but neither are particularly resilient nor carry any major defensive pros barring cc stomp so for their output their price seems reasonable in the current meta. Tree revs definitely feel a tad over costed but not by much and if they dropped to 80 id be tempted to suggest they were too cheap. Their move is tactically imposing if played right, they just suffer from being very fragile and are therefore difficult to well. Hunters are by far and away the best bang for buck unit we have and I definitely agree that when seen in the first wave of mixed order lists appeared busted as a wraithknight on steroids, however they are our only non character unit that fills a specialist dmg roll and are definitely not impossible to deal with. Now with longstrikes, skyfires and to a degree arrer boyz hitting the shooting meta hard, hunters seem a lot more muted and really stand out more for their wound count rather than dmg. I have yet to use spite revs or alarielle so cant really comment on them.

Melding all of the above I could see some justification for bumping hunters cost up but the only place I think they could balance that would be with a reduction in cost for tree revs. Given that competitively we don't generally spam tree revs and my general feeling that they shouldnt be much cheaper anyway this wouldn't balance our power level sufficiently to stop a points hike being an overall nerf to pure sylvaneth and a nerf to pure sylvaneth could see us going from plucky contenders to the fyreslayers of GHB 2.

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The reason you've never used Alarielle or Spite revenants might be precisely because they are over costed based on their usefulness.

You don't think that Drycha with bees is overcosted given that she hurts herself and allies? Not that there is a point difference between different equips. But maybe there should be.

[Nico]

Sylvaneth never dominated tournaments as they have some bad match ups. This is only getting worse now that Skyfires and KO can outshoot them too. DoT are incredibly strong against them due to unbinding. Kurnoth nerf seems vindictive unless Dryads and Spites and Alarielle go down significantly too.

[Aezeal]

31 minutes ago, Oppenheimer said:

 

The reason you've never used Alarielle or Spite revenants might be precisely because they are over costed based on their usefulness.

You don't think that Drycha with bees is overcosted given that she hurts herself and allies? Not that there is a point difference between different equips. But maybe there should be.

Why use Drycha with the bees, I use squirmlings to kill hordes. 40/60 goblins in 1 shooting phase.. 

[Aezeal]

52 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Hunters damage output in mixed order lists is the reason everybody hates them (especially stacking bows + hurricanum). The easiest fix to take is to adjust the hurricanum's points (I actually think 300 some-odd points is undercosted for an AOE +hit bubble). I don't put a lot of stock in reverse engineering matched play points from skirmish rules. You can reverse engineer points from open play as well, and in that scenario hunters are 0 points.... 

i'm going to go out on a limb as say no cost increase or possibly a very very slight one. The internal balance of the Slyvaneth book would be grossly effected by a large points increase to hunters. I could maybe see a points increase if they added something else to the Sylvaneth book to compensate, but right now there just isn't another unit capable of decent damage output that isn't a monster/character/both.

People love to complain about units but often forget that units exist in the context of an army. It was very clear from GW that fyreslayers had their points dropped because they weren't performing well in matched play; hence they got a points decrease.  With tomb kings it was the opposite problem, they over performed (as an army) and as such got a (fairly hefty) points increase. Sylvaneth certainly do well at tournaments and you'll usually see 1-2 in the top ten tables, but haven't exactly been dominating the tournament circuit. Based on that I'm very skeptical that a points increase is warranted. 



 

Agreeing with all of this. Personally I'd say a decrease for revenants is the only thing I feel is needed. Considering most lists contain a TLA and he's got some utility over the TL I'd say a slight increase there might be more fitting than one on hunters. Alarielle dropping in points would be nice. 

I can totally live with hurricanum  points increase,  40 points more isn't unreasonable.

[Oppenheimer]

4 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Why use Drycha with the bees, I use squirmlings to kill hordes. 40/60 goblins in 1 shooting phase.. 

I would like to use her because of fluff and because she looks better with bees. Plus I can scream "Beeeees!" when I attack.

But yeah they really screwed it up by making it hurt allies so I guess that will never happen ?

[Aezeal]

9 hours ago, Oppenheimer said:

I would like to use her because of fluff and because she looks better with bees. Plus I can scream "Beeeees!" when I attack.

But yeah they really screwed it up by making it hurt allies so I guess that will never happen ?

Ow I use her... about every game except my last one where I wanted to fit Alarielle in.. but I always use the squirmlings. I doubt all your opponents can see the difference so I'd just ignore WYSIWYG if you modelled her with the flitterfuries and play her as equipped with squirmlings.

[SpiritofHokuto]

On 5/26/2017 at 11:39 PM, Oppenheimer said:

I would like to use her because of fluff and because she looks better with bees. Plus I can scream "Beeeees!" when I attack.

But yeah they really screwed it up by making it hurt allies so I guess that will never happen ?

I don't even think it hurting allies is that bad. It's something that you can play around. What really kills Flitterfuries to me is that it hurts herself.

[Aezeal]

Squirmling do so much damage one 1 wound troops that battleshock will probably kill the whole unit. I like that. In some games the furies might do more damage in the shooting phase (but even that is situational) but battleshock damage will usually be lowish. (theory.. never played the furies)

[Mirage8112]

10 hours ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

I don't even think it hurting allies is that bad. It's something that you can play around. What really kills Flitterfuries to me is that it hurts herself.

It's actually not that much of an issue, provided you plan for it, and have something nearby to heal her. 

[ledha]

On 26/05/2017 at 2:03 AM, Azurious said:

I personally don't think theres a lot of room for tweaking with the points costs. Dryads are definitely fair given their excellent dmg output (for a battleline option) and solid durability against non specialists. All of our characters are reasonable. Durthu does seem expensive but he is a dmg monster and his shooting atk is essentially 3 hunters, combined with magic support to keep his wounds healthy he is quite durable and all in I think hes fair. TLA is a tank as we all know against anything r1 or less but is still vulnerable to mortal output and theres a lot of that, or rend 2 across the new tombs so again I think 300 is reasonable especially as hes a force multiplier first and foremost with mediocre damage output (unless your msu opponant happens to be in your woods). I don't have much experience with drycha or treelords but neither are particularly resilient nor carry any major defensive pros barring cc stomp so for their output their price seems reasonable in the current meta. Tree revs definitely feel a tad over costed but not by much and if they dropped to 80 id be tempted to suggest they were too cheap. Their move is tactically imposing if played right, they just suffer from being very fragile and are therefore difficult to well. Hunters are by far and away the best bang for buck unit we have and I definitely agree that when seen in the first wave of mixed order lists appeared busted as a wraithknight on steroids, however they are our only non character unit that fills a specialist dmg roll and are definitely not impossible to deal with. Now with longstrikes, skyfires and to a degree arrer boyz hitting the shooting meta hard, hunters seem a lot more muted and really stand out more for their wound count rather than dmg. I have yet to use spite revs or alarielle so cant really comment on them.

Melding all of the above I could see some justification for bumping hunters cost up but the only place I think they could balance that would be with a reduction in cost for tree revs. Given that competitively we don't generally spam tree revs and my general feeling that they shouldnt be much cheaper anyway this wouldn't balance our power level sufficiently to stop a points hike being an overall nerf to pure sylvaneth and a nerf to pure sylvaneth could see us going from plucky contenders to the fyreslayers of GHB 2.

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I think tree revenant should be 70 pts. Compare them with the vanguard hunter, who, for 140 pts, have 10 wound, a 4+, some shooting, and can be as mobile and infuriating as the tree revenant. 10 tree revenant for 160 pts would feel a bit expensive i think.

as for alarielle, why do you think she should have a point decrease ? Even if she is expensive, i always saw her performing very well. I find her VERY scary 

[Okami]

On 5/25/2017 at 5:38 AM, Aezeal said:

I agree dryads are very good. However I seem to recall a lot of very Kurnoth heavy lists doing well in tourneys so I'm not completely convinced by your arguments against them.

I wonder about GHB2: Hunters might need a small increase in points.. but then skyfires would need the same or bigger increase and I wonder if GW will do that with such a new kit.

To give you an idea on how my point is proven, i use to use all 12 in my old list now I use only 9. And do better in games then the 12 man unit. 

I have written sylvaneth Lists where they have 0 Units of Kurnoths but heavy on other units. I'm also a tournament player so i know what is on top tables quite alot. 

Yeah they are getting a point increase. 220, skyfires won't have a point rise soon, as you said they are a new kit. BUt i'm all up for surprises. How do i know its 220? The Skirmish book is a good indicator. A unit that have 5 wounds, 4+ Re-rolling save, that can be buffed to a 2+ rerolling save, with high damage output. I think is fair. However their are new units out there that can do some serious damage, at times more reliable then. E.g Enginriggers from overloads, if buffed right they can wreck face. Also Dryads and Tree-Revs might have a point decrease, where I have written lists that are heavy on Tree Revs and can do serious damage in such a large group. Especially with 6" pile in. 

All I'm trying to say is, yeah Kurnoths hunters are amazing, both on paper and on the tabletop. However the day will come when they will have a point raise and you will see less of them, That is why i'm writing lists, looking at other units/newer ones at that they can do similar damage and that get overlooked.

[ledha]

Can we really take the skirmish price as a hint ? 

I think the nerf/buff of some units is because of their interactions. The retributors are cheapers in skirmish, because their mortal wound output is a bit wasted in a skirmish game with lot of 1 wound units, and you can't compensate their very bad move with all those shiny toys and formation the stormcast have, so you have a very slow man with only 2 attacks who will overkill most of his opponent with a lucky roll.

. Same things for the skullreapers, who have a point increase, because in a world of 1-man units, the trial of skull mechanic can become absurd REALLY FAST

[Heksagon]

"Can we really take the skirmish price as a hint?"

 

Well, yes. Skirmish price is calculated by the same formula for each unit. Some units seem to have higher price, Skyfires too (160 to 180 points/unit).

Kurnoths (probably) will be 220pts, Dryads 100 pts, Branchwych 80pts, Tree-Revenants/Spite 80 pts. Of course it's not 100% certain, but very very probable...
In my opinion this is a good change. Sylvaneth list are very unbalanced atm, this change should eleminate this problem (no more Kurnoth spam? Hm..).

 

Edit:

Formula: (GH pts price/numer of models in unit)/5 = Renown Cost

[Azurious]

I think tree revenant should be 70 pts. Compare them with the vanguard hunter, who, for 140 pts, have 10 wound, a 4+, some shooting, and can be as mobile and infuriating as the tree revenant. 10 tree revenant for 160 pts would feel a bit expensive i think.
as for alarielle, why do you think she should have a point decrease ? Even if she is expensive, i always saw her performing very well. I find her VERY scary 

Vanguard hunters deployment rule is solid but they are reliant on a Lord Aquillor being on the table for any further funny business. They also are not sylvaneth and as such balance with SCE differently to how revenants balance with sylvaneth. 70 pts for 5 tree revs I feel would be ludicrously underpriced for the reasons iv previously mentioned above. As for alerielle I don't have enough experience with or against her to comment on her cost

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[Aezeal]

8 hours ago, Heksagon said:

"Can we really take the skirmish price as a hint?"

 

Well, yes. Skirmish price is calculated by the same formula for each unit. Some units seem to have higher price, Skyfires too (160 to 180 points/unit).

Kurnoths (probably) will be 220pts, Dryads 100 pts, Branchwych 80pts, Tree-Revenants/Spite 80 pts. Of course it's not 100% certain, but very very probable...
In my opinion this is a good change. Sylvaneth list are very unbalanced atm, this change should eleminate this problem (no more Kurnoth spam? Hm..).

 

Edit:

Formula: (GH pts price/numer of models in unit)/5 = Renown Cost

If we get those decreases on battleline I think it's not that bad. Still think 220 is too much.. but biased I'll admit. Will certainly make me focus back on gnarlroot though instead of buying my 3th hunter unit for free spirits. I fear gnarlroot itself will get a price increase though.. I think that would be deserved. I think 150 for the household+gnarlroot would be reasonable.

Actually I think additional points there are the most deserved increase we could get, it's a pretty strong wargrove.

[Aezeal]

8 hours ago, Heksagon said:

"Can we really take the skirmish price as a hint?"

 

Well, yes. Skirmish price is calculated by the same formula for each unit. Some units seem to have higher price, Skyfires too (160 to 180 points/unit).

Kurnoths (probably) will be 220pts, Dryads 100 pts, Branchwych 80pts, Tree-Revenants/Spite 80 pts. Of course it's not 100% certain, but very very probable...
In my opinion this is a good change. Sylvaneth list are very unbalanced atm, this change should eleminate this problem (no more Kurnoth spam? Hm..).

 

Edit:

Formula: (GH pts price/numer of models in unit)/5 = Renown Cost

Why are Sylvaneth lists unbalanced? Can't see them dominating much lately.

[ledha]

38 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Why are Sylvaneth lists unbalanced? Can't see them dominating much lately.

i think he is talking about internal balance. Dryad are "good", spite and tree revenant are trash/very situational, branchwraith are terrible, no one play with the treelord, and the kurnoth hunter are one of the best unit in the whole game.

[DantePQ]

Yeah but those aren't that bad, 220 is fair I guess especially with all Battlelines going down, for example in Gnarlroot Battelines and Wych and Battlines save you 80 pts. 

And I hope Drycha will use some point reduction ( 240-250) Treelord(20 pts) and Alarielle(50-60pts). I guess Durthu and TLA are good at their point price.

Also maybe Sisters of Thorn will become cheaper which along with cheaper Dryads opens nice possibilities.  

[ledha]

20 hours ago, Heksagon said:

"Can we really take the skirmish price as a hint?"

 

Well, yes. Skirmish price is calculated by the same formula for each unit. Some units seem to have higher price, Skyfires too (160 to 180 points/unit).

Kurnoths (probably) will be 220pts, Dryads 100 pts, Branchwych 80pts, Tree-Revenants/Spite 80 pts. Of course it's not 100% certain, but very very probable...
In my opinion this is a good change. Sylvaneth list are very unbalanced atm, this change should eleminate this problem (no more Kurnoth spam? Hm..).

 

Edit:

Formula: (GH pts price/numer of models in unit)/5 = Renown Cost

yes, i know how it's calculated, by i explained under the only line you quoted why it's maybe doesn't mean anything and some of those point reduction/augmentation may be only balancing for skirmish

[DantePQ]

I doubt it is for skirmish as 

Hunters in vacumm are worth at least 220 - every weapon option is good, they are tough, durable. It gets tricky with Sylvaneth as Sylvaneth doesn't have much. Against some armies Kurtnoh Spam is the only way to have a chance (DoT). Considering competitive side of a game majority of Sylaventh units are overcoasted. Decrease in points of Spite-Revs, Tree-Revs and Wyches will probably mean that Sylvaneth will be able to field exactly the same number of Hunters anyway. - as I think Treelord, Drycha and Alarielle could/should get points reduction too. 

Sylvaneth is still strong army but lack of flexibility hurts them a lot. Also Deepwood lore is pretty bad with Regrowth and Verdant's Blessing being only good options and all those spells are reactive and after you set up 2-3 woods Verdant Blessing is also useless and you can cast only one Regrowth a turn. 

I think considerable point reduction of Alarielle, Drycha, Brachwraith and Treelord could open up some new posibilities.

But I would love GH2 to introduce more spells/spell lores. I know it isn't coming anytime soon but Sylvaneth going forward is in dire need of introducing some kind of new unit (even in a form of Order units that works well in Sylvaneth) 

For example 60 points reduction on Alarielle (which I think is fine or 40 and 40 on Branchwraith) could enable taking Branchwych/Branchwraith in Mirage's Dreadwood Alpha Strike List making it much better 

[Aezeal]

3 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I doubt it is for skirmish as 

Hunters in vacumm are worth at least 220 - every weapon option is good, they are tough, durable. It gets tricky with Sylvaneth as Sylvaneth doesn't have much. Against some armies Kurtnoh Spam is the only way to have a chance (DoT). Considering competitive side of a game majority of Sylaventh units are overcoasted. Decrease in points of Spite-Revs, Tree-Revs and Wyches will probably mean that Sylvaneth will be able to field exactly the same number of Hunters anyway. - as I think Treelord, Drycha and Alarielle could/should get points reduction too. 

Sylvaneth is still strong army but lack of flexibility hurts them a lot. Also Deepwood lore is pretty bad with Regrowth and Verdant's Blessing being only good options and all those spells are reactive and after you set up 2-3 woods Verdant Blessing is also useless and you can cast only one Regrowth a turn. 

I think considerable point reduction of Alarielle, Drycha, Brachwraith and Treelord could open up some new posibilities.

But I would love GH2 to introduce more spells/spell lores. I know it isn't coming anytime soon but Sylvaneth going forward is in dire need of introducing some kind of new unit. 

Not sure Drycha needs cost reduction myself. A new unit or 2 would also be nice to give more options. I'd like spite swarms as chaff and some think like smaller wardroth beetles ridden by hunters or wyches or whatever.

I think Hunters aren't worth more than 220, their damage output is decent but not THAT good.

I think our buffs and spells are also undergoing steep inflation with the priest who auto cast and cannot be unbound becoming more and more prevalent. The balanced way would be that spells would be harder to get off but have more power and priest buffs are autocast but weaker... but this isn't the case... priest abilities are very strong. Anyway there seems no reason for us to not have a priest, actually I think (without much tweaking of the lore) branchwraiths are perfect for this: they are al ready sort of shepherds of their flock etc etc. Just remove their (completely useless) spell and add a decent prayer(or several, like a prayer list of 6).

[Azurious]

Not sure Drycha needs cost reduction myself. A new unit or 2 would also be nice to give more options. I'd like spite swarms as chaff and some think like smaller wardroth beetles ridden by hunters or wyches or whatever.
I think Hunters aren't worth more than 220, their damage output is decent but not THAT good.
I think our buffs and spells are also undergoing steep inflation with the priest who auto cast and cannot be unbound becoming more and more prevalent. The balanced way would be that spells would be harder to get off but have more power and priest buffs are autocast but weaker... but this isn't the case... priest abilities are very strong. Anyway there seems no reason for us to not have a priest, actually I think (without much tweaking of the lore) branchwraiths are perfect for this: they are al ready sort of shepherds of their flock etc etc. Just remove their (completely useless) spell and add a decent prayer(or several, like a prayer list of 6).

The TLA silent communion functions like a priest ability albeit without the keyword.

I have to agree that there is a big discrepancy between casters and priests due to the uncounterable nature of the later and considering that priests tend to be less expensive than casters.

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[Mirage8112]

Said it before and said it again:

Nope. Hunters do not need a points increase. Given the variation we're seeing in the tournament meta if anything Sylvaneth could use the option of making spites battleline. T-rev's perform their role very well for 100 pts (anybody who doesn't think so is using them wrong. Yeah, I said it.) Treelord could sue a small reduction, but even that isn't necessary. 

The problem is players don't really understand how to deal with unit spam of any type. Hunters, Skyfires, Husktusks you name it. Anytime a player puts an elite unit on the board at max strength mid-lower level players are going to struggle. If Hunters are so terribly overpowered why are they not taking all/multiple top spots at tournaments? They aren't because the army is difficult to play and the new stuff is quite challenging to come up against. 

However, one thing I'm not accounting for is the meta shift with points being redistributed around the entire line. It might be that point changes in other armies mean hunters will need to be rebalanced against them. But IMRO, based on the points values as things stand at this time, players who think hunters they are losing games because hunters are too cheap need to practice more...  

[gummyofallbears]

On 6/8/2017 at 7:34 PM, Mirage8112 said:

Said it before and said it again:

Nope. Hunters do not need a points increase. Given the variation we're seeing in the tournament meta if anything Sylvaneth could use the option of making spites battleline. T-rev's perform their role very well for 100 pts (anybody who doesn't think so is using them wrong. Yeah, I said it.) Treelord could sue a small reduction, but even that isn't necessary. 

The problem is players don't really understand how to deal with unit spam of any type. Hunters, Skyfires, Husktusks you name it. Anytime a player puts an elite unit on the board at max strength mid-lower level players are going to struggle. If Hunters are so terribly overpowered why are they not taking all/multiple top spots at tournaments? They aren't because the army is difficult to play and the new stuff is quite challenging to come up against. 

However, one thing I'm not accounting for is the meta shift with points being redistributed around the entire line. It might be that point changes in other armies mean hunters will need to be rebalanced against them. But IMRO, based on the points values as things stand at this time, players who think hunters they are losing games because hunters are too cheap need to practice more...  

I love my Kurnoth Hunters, but without buffs the bows are only decent, and I have actually started running one huge unit with scythes, always kills basically anything it charges, mainly because of that sweet two inch reach. 

I agree that Tree Revenants are perfectly fine cost wise, I love mine, I use three units of 5 as assassins, 9 inch charge, re-rolling one dice isn't bad, and they will definitely kill weaker heroes/war machines. I just wish they hit on 3's, that would definitely make them worth it.