Nagash the undying king discussion (Spoilers of course)

[shinros]

This book really puts the meaning into "All are one in nagash".

Yeah so a mate grabbed the book for me in warhammer world and finished it in about a day it was really good. The book features Arkhan and Neferata quite heavily and a Female necromancer named Tamra. Overall the book pretty much details how one becomes a deathlord. Of course Mannfred is also mentioned plus I don't actually think mannfred ran away in the end in the last moment since they show Tarsem shouting for sigmar and both him and mannfred are fighting back to back against bloodbound.

I think their friendship is pretty complicated I might ask Josh about that. 

A deathlord is in a sense equal to a Mortarch from my understanding of course Neferata being neferata she is trying to get one under her thumb as she is developing.

The book delves into who the deathlords are and how they are born. One of the main characters is a female necromancer yes a female necromancer displaying how she becomes a deathlord. Her name is Tamra. Also the book goes into how nagash handles his worshipers and how said worshipers view him in turn.

It's pretty bittersweet in a sense but the book really gives you an understanding of deathlords and nagash's mentality. Also I now believe once you become a deathlord you largely no longer have any "free will". 

Being a deathlord you are more of nagash than anything else since it describes the process of nagash somewhat hollowing her out and placing a shard of his power in her. 

"She flinched as a bony hand touched shoulder. She could feel the power of him, more than ever before. It sparked against something inside her, as if she and Arkhan and even Neferata were part of the same great flame."

Arkhan looked down at her. "Stand, deathlord. The chosen of Nagash do not kneel, save in the presence of Death himself."

Yeah she has an army of skeletons and 5 wight kings along with a whole host of Flesh Eater Courts with a Ghoul king. So yeah the deathlords are all connected somewhat. 
 

Now after reading this book I do think Death might be centered on the Deathlords since they are the "leaders" of death from the looks of it(my understanding) deathlords can be necromancers, deathrattle, vampires etc. By the end Tamra as I said before had a whole army of skeletons along with several ancient wight kings and a host of Flesh eater courts lead by a ghoul king who had some distant relation to her in the past. 

Also the vampire curse name is indeed called soulblight. Which makes sense and fits pretty well if you read the liber necris in my opinion on how one changes into a vampire. 

That's it for now if people have any other questions I will try to answer em. 

[hellalugosi]

Im excited for this thread, ive been spoiled on things for this book and am patiently waiting for a friend to eventually grab me a copy some time so i may read it too.

I hear there is a certain lightning strike that is an EXTRA exciting moment in the book?

[shinros]

18 minutes ago, hellalugosi said:

Im excited for this thread, ive been spoiled on things for this book and am patiently waiting for a friend to eventually grab me a copy some time so i may read it too.

I hear there is a certain lightning strike that is an EXTRA exciting moment in the book?

Hmm, I think I know what you are referring to there is one event seen in the book that is talked about in the audio drama's dealing with a certain character. 

Also the book does detail how Nagash perceives sigmar has betrayed him. 

[hellalugosi]

41 minutes ago, shinros said:

Hmm, I think I know what you are referring to there is one event seen in the book that is talked about in the audio drama's dealing with a certain character. 

Also the book does detail how Nagash perceives sigmar has betrayed him. 

so what are your thoughts on that, as this tends to be thrown around my club a lot, as many people are still trying to wrap their heads around sigmar and nagash having once been part of a great pantheon together. I feel like similar to the pantheon of the greeks, certain gods are increasingly more human when taking a look at their flaws in personalities. i think nagash is a really good example of this and am curious to see the full reach of how he places himself among the other gods.

[Gotrek]

How did sigmar betray nagash? Is it stealing the souls of the Stormcast? Was it in the war against chaos? Did nagash actually betray the pantheon?  I'll never make it to the UK

 

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[Darth Alec]

I love this book. Plain and simple. I've said loads about it. So to not repeat myself, I'll just link to the minisode where I talk about it. This is just the review of the book, no extra fluff for those of you who don't want more

 

https://fjordhammer.podbean.com/e/nagash-undying-king-review-with-kye-baker/

 

[shinros]

6 hours ago, hellalugosi said:

so what are your thoughts on that, as this tends to be thrown around my club a lot, as many people are still trying to wrap their heads around sigmar and nagash having once been part of a great pantheon together. I feel like similar to the pantheon of the greeks, certain gods are increasingly more human when taking a look at their flaws in personalities. i think nagash is a really good example of this and am curious to see the full reach of how he places himself among the other gods.

Essentially when sigmar thought nagash has betrayed him due to tzeentch's machinations he went to shyish and in his anger rampaged around abit. Of course sigmar doing this helped opened they way for chaos to invade shyish. So largely the reason why chaos is there is great numbers is due to sigmar.

Of course later in the timeline the creation of stormcast is another percived betrayal by nagash since the book goes into how messed up he got due his battle with Archaon. All the dead souls stuck between the realms, stolen by chaos or stuck in dead bodies is weakening him and not allowing him to recover in a timely fashion.

Now adding the whole stormcast souls not going to the underworld as well.

Also what's interesting is that nagash looks at Mannfred when fighting with Tarsem during the helstone invasion and notes of his endless ambition. Nagash does say he does indeed punish mannfred a lot due to it but he also finds it admirable at the same time.

Also Neferata brings up and asks Arkhan why does he allow her and mannfrd to be so treacherous and the desire of wanting his throne. Arkhan says that nagash allows it because it also keeps him alert and sharp. Arkhan also perceives his weakness of flaw to be extreme loyalty to shyish and it's people. Arkhan is also a pretty chill dude in the book.

[Menkeroth]

4 hours ago, shinros said:

Essentially when sigmar thought nagash has betrayed him due to tzeentch's machinations he went to shyish and in his anger rampaged around abit. Of course sigmar doing this helped opened they way for chaos to invade shyish. So largely the reason why chaos is there is great numbers is due to sigmar.

Well, not exactly. As the "Everchosen" book tells us, it was first Archaon who drove a blade into the Sigmar's Pantheon relations, so they eventually splintered and he was able to freely conquer the Eightpoints and all the rest of the universe.

[Sleboda]

I have never heard of this Nagash book. Where do you get it?

I have 4 other books with him,  but not that one. 

[shinros]

1 hour ago, Menkeroth said:

Well, not exactly. As the "Everchosen" book tells us, it was first Archaon who drove a blade into the Sigmar's Pantheon relations, so they eventually splintered and he was able to freely conquer the Eightpoints and all the rest of the universe.

I do recall in DOT or the campaign book that it was tzeentch that looked to break the alliance and largely Archaon took advantage of it. *Shrug* But the books don't detail how he does it or how the gods perceived the supposed "betrayal". Nagash the undying king give's nagash's perspective on how sigmar betrayed him In nagash's eyes sigmar coming to his realm rampaging around(His rampage is detailed in the campaign book and the Flesh eater court tome) for largely no reason after helping him fight chaos for so long and allowing chaos easier access to shyish. Sigmar did this unknowingly thinking that Nagash betrayed him. 

[shinros]

35 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I have never heard of this Nagash book. Where do you get it?

I have 4 other books with him,  but not that one. 

It's a book you can only get in warhammer world. It's really interesting because it's pretty much the aftermath after Archaon smacked Nagash in battle. 

[Sleboda]

Ah. Thanks. 

That explains it ... and sucks at the same time.

[shinros]

To extend further on deathlords's(DISCLIAMER also this is Josh's opinion GW can change this at any point)

Question:Finished the nagash the undying king lovely book. On the topic of Deathlords so what I gather they are necromancers, vampires, deathrattle etc Chosen by nagash hallowed out and given a shard of his power. All deathlords are connected to even the mortarch's they all share in the "flame" of nagash?

Answer: Pretty much, yes. In my opinion, if you actively serve Nagash (not just worship him, but *serve* him) for any length of time, you become a part of Nagash. As he feeds power into you, it eats away (or overwrites) at more and more of your sense of self, until all that's left is a bit of Nagash wearing your body as a costume, and thinking it's you. Now, someone with a strong will can resist this to a certain extent. But it's up for debate how much of that is them, and how much is Nagash co-opting their sense of self for his own purposes, i.e. is Arkhan actually Arkhan, or is he some approximation that Nagash has cobbled together to serve a specific purpose?

In the Undying King, for instance, there's the implication that Arkhan might, in fact, be a receptacle for Nagash's 'better' traits - loyalty, equanimity, etc. - long since shed due to various setbacks. Which means that the Nagash who fought alongside Sigmar might probably have been a lot like Arkhan, as opposed to the ranting tyrant he is now...

[shinros]

20 minutes ago, xking said:

That was you that asked that?

I posted it in the "The "logic" of the AoS setting?" thread at the end.

Yup it was I asked Josh that question right after I finished the book. 

[Killax]

Hey @Sedraxis this was the topic I called you about.

In any case, I really like the lore development and this go as planned. It also brings hope to me that we will (eventually) see a nice Battletome Deathlords or Lords of Death kind of deal  

Keep the info comming!

[shinros]

5 minutes ago, Killax said:

Hey @Sedraxis this was the topic I called you about.

In any case, I really like the lore development and this go as planned. It also brings hope to me that we will (eventually) see a nice Battletome Deathlords or Lords of Death kind of deal  

Keep the info comming!

Indeed personally I would like Death to go that direction since deathlords are powerful lords of death and powerful in necromancy they use all the units from the factions from the looks of things.

Honestly deathlords are pretty much the lich King from wow but there are multiple of them and they all share the same boss and they are all connected somewhat.

[Killax]

3 minutes ago, shinros said:

Indeed personally I would like Death to go that direction since deathlords are powerful lords of death and powerful in necromancy they use all the units from the factions from the looks of things.

Honestly deathlords are pretty much the lich King from wow but there are multiple of them and they all share the same boss and they are all connected somewhat.

I can only agree with that. What I hope and expect is to see a difference in factions within Death that basically boils down to Undead, Ghouls and Spirits, with an eventual technical Frankenstein/Zombie to follow (much later).

As with all Grand Alliances these forces will work and fight together when under the command of the powerful entity Nagash, though the moment Nagash is working on something to "kill the universe" I think it would be very cool to see different characters lead these forces.

[Menkeroth]

1 hour ago, shinros said:

Indeed personally I would like Death to go that direction since deathlords are powerful lords of death and powerful in necromancy they use all the units from the factions from the looks of things.

Very likely they will be like the "Everchosen" book - few units but with the possibility to enlist any other Death has to offer.

[hellalugosi]

Based on this, any theories as to the future of tarsus? Will nagash repurpose his soul to serve as a desthlord himself?

[shinros]

24 minutes ago, hellalugosi said:

Based on this, any theories as to the future of tarsus? Will nagash repurpose his soul to serve as a desthlord himself?

I hope so because him and mannfred were besties(friends) before sigmar spirited him away.

Thats the one plot hook that's been left hanging for awhile and it would be great to see mannfred's reaction if nagash does turn him into a deathlord. Also the book does reveal that helstone bent the knee to nagash but many people there did not worship him.

hence when nagash passed by he pretty much left them to their fate since they did not pray to him. Tarsem was also a sigmarite.

Nagash does things to weaken chaos even in his weakened state in the past.

[Austin]

I missed that Tarsus had been fully stolen by Nagash for whatever reason. 

Really hope that we get more non limited edition Josh Reynolds AoS novels. The ones so far (including the excellent Skaven/Seraphon/Stormcast mashup) have been a great start to the new lore. 

[shinros]

1 hour ago, Caladancid said:

I missed that Tarsus had been fully stolen by Nagash for whatever reason. 

Really hope that we get more non limited edition Josh Reynolds AoS novels. The ones so far (including the excellent Skaven/Seraphon/Stormcast mashup) have been a great start to the new lore. 

He was not stolen it was sigmar who stole him first from nagash. 

Also the book does show you largely why shyish is contested and has not fallen to chaos yet like the other realms.

[hellalugosi]

13 hours ago, shinros said:

I hope so because him and mannfred were besties(friends) before sigmar spirited him away.Thats the one plot hook that's been left hanging for awhile and it would be great to see mannfred's reaction if nagash does turn him into a deathlord. 

I can only assume he would feel a resounding amount of guilt. Of course underneath his bravado. He would celebrate tbe return of his ally, but i think he would deep down would have prefered that his friend be the maker of his own destiny, and not a puppet of nagash.

What are your thoughts of the new deathlord herself?

[Menkeroth]

it's an interesting moment, it shows that the deathlords are not limited only to Nagash and his Mortarchs, so could be like a cadre of elite warriors backed by morghasts - just like Archaon and his varanguard.

[shinros]

3 hours ago, hellalugosi said:

I can only assume he would feel a resounding amount of guilt. Of course underneath his bravado. He would celebrate tbe return of his ally, but i think he would deep down would have prefered that his friend be the maker of his own destiny, and not a puppet of nagash.

What are your thoughts of the new deathlord herself?

Yeah if such a thing does occur I imagine there will be some pity and guilt but we also have to remember mannfred is not actually a fan of sigmar at all. He thinks similar to Arkhan that sigmar is a betrayer. After reading the novel I do think mannfred and Arkhan are quite similar but also different, also what's interesting is neferata is not all that "big" on nagash's divinity compared to Mannfred and Arkhan after all the death novels that have been released. 

Now Tamra?

Well, she did not exactly want the job so to speak she only wanted to save her people you see nagash sealed away 5 kings and pretty much destroyed their lands due to their rebellion the people who live there had relations to them. You see that rebellion occurred due to the machinations of neferata hence why Rikan the ghoul king vampire was telling Tamra through out the whole novel not to trust her since only lies spills from her mouth. 

Neferata knew she was a possible deathlord(Arkhan also knew but more or less looked at Tamra with pity and more or less let events play out since he knew she would release the kings to save her people) and engineered the events in the book somewhat to try and get her under her thumb you see neferata being a part of nagash she could not release the 5 kings. But tamra could since she was not bound/part of nagash. The battle against the nurgle forces was turning bad majority of her people were dying so she released the kings. 

Of course the battle allowed nagash to recover somewhat popped up and obliterated the nurgle forces. Now since Tamra broke the law of nagash on releasing the kings he was going to punish her. Until Arkhan told him that she was only serving his wishes of course neferata spoke up for her as well but I personally believe nagash places more stock on what Arkhan tells him. 

Tamra tells nagash that she wanted to only save her people and then nagash chastises her telling her that "her" people is not her's to save and her people do not belong to her at all but to him in death and life. So due to some convincing from Arkhan and neferata Nagash decides to turn her into a deathlord he hallows her out a bit and places his power within her. 

Nagash then proceeds to kill all the survivors of the battle including the children turning them into skeletons and binding them and the 5 kings to Tamra. Tamra says she did not want this and Nagash pretty much says that he has now saved her "people" and that now she will serve him in future battles to come. 

She did not really want it but all she wanted is to preserve her people but overall she does have the power now to protect their lands and in life and death they are still her people. Along with Rikan added to her forces she became the High queen of the Drak.