Lets Chat: Flesh Eater Courts

[Okami]

Hey Everyone

You can see I have posted comments on Flesh Eater Courts a bit. However i realised there is real no Discussion on the allegiance as a whole. Unlike other allegiances like sylvaneth and stormcast etc, where they have a thread dedicate on talking about their rules. I'm coming from a Sylvaneth play style, I had so many artifacts, spells and many other options to take when playing in match play.  Now moving into FEC after reading the book, there is no real "Meat" as i would say. Amazing Lore don't get me wrong, but with the lack of Choices in list building. Which I understand everyone who is a death player is getting frustrated with the lack of choice in taking artefacts, most factions are! However I feel the Generals Handbook 2.0 Will change that, with hopefully seeing each allegiance/army that has their own battletombe with no "Meat". Where i think we will see powerful artefacts for FEC especially something cool like SCE have with their rider heroes giving their beasts traits, Spells that can bring back slain models or buff them up somehow. Also giving Magic buffing and combat buffing treasures. That is for every faction BTW not just generic Death ones we have today. Especially with one of the most powerful artefacts being "nerfed" in the FAQ late last year. 

So lets get this conversation going where we share what we want to see FEC get, i understand it isn't the most popular faction, however they have their own TOMBE and most people don't see them working competitively as a lot of the command abilities is about summoning which costs match play points. But I feel different where I reckon i have wrote a few list with FEC in my mind that would actually be considered "Top Table" worthy. For example i'll share you my 2K list and my 2.5K list that I am building up for a few tournaments here in Australia. Also want to discuss how people use different units in the game and tactics that they use with models like Crypt Ghouls in Ghoul Patrol. 

2K List: 

Allegiance: Flesh Eater Courts

Leaders
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist(400)
- Artefact: Cloak of Mists and Shadows
Crypt Infernal Courtier (140)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Night
- Artefact: Cursed Book
Varghulf Courtier (160)

Battleline
6 x Crypt Flayers (320)
- Flesh Eater Courts Battleline (Crypt Infernal Courtier General)
6 x Crypt Flayers (320)
- Flesh Eater Courts Battleline (Crypt Infernal Courtier General)
3 x Crypt Flayers (160)
- Flesh Eater Courts Battleline (Crypt Infernal Courtier General)

Behemoths
Terrorgheist (320)

Battalions
Deadwatch (160)

Total: 1980/2000

2.5K

Allegiance: Flesh Eater Courts

Leaders
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist(400)
- Artefact: Cloak of Mists and Shadows
Crypt Infernal Courtier (140)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Night
- Artefact: Cursed Book
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon(400)
Varghulf Courtier (160)

Battleline
6 x Crypt Flayers (320)
- Flesh Eater Courts Battleline (Crypt Infernal Courtier General)
6 x Crypt Flayers (320)
- Flesh Eater Courts Battleline (Crypt Infernal Courtier General)
3 x Crypt Flayers (160)
- Flesh Eater Courts Battleline (Crypt Infernal Courtier General)
10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)

Behemoths
Terrorgheist (320)

Battalions
Deadwatch (160)

Total: 2480/2500

There very similar lists, however I feel at the way the deadwatch works at 2.5K their quite powerful especially with the GK on ZD around in the hero phase and also having two Courtiers to bring back a whole back on a 5+ is quite powerful. 

So what is everyone recently running? Thinking about building? Conversions etc? Let's get this conversation going and see people just want to run mixed death.

- Okami 

[WillofNagash]

I love your deathwatch list, it's the list I would run if I had that much expendable income

[Okami]

54 minutes ago, WillofNagash said:

I love your deathwatch list, it's the list I would run if I had that much expendable income

Hahaha, don't have that much of a expendable income, however buying the Start Collecting boxes is helping a lot for value of money! 
Going to warhammer world in June, just doing majority of the list shopping their + Silver tower and thats my holidays purchases! 

 

[ChippyRick]

Cool to see this up, great idea. I have recently jumped on to Death, but always wanted to be going full FEC.

I have a Deadwatch army now, not fully built yet but really to get it on the table this year. I am slightly holding back to see if anything changes with GHB2 if i am honest, and i hoped (doubtful it will) that somewhere with the Deadwatch units/formation we might see a few points drops. I do think they are good and viable, just you dont see them much and maybe a little drop in points somewhere could help. I have not played at all with them and they may not need this at all, but i play with a lot of other units in the game and these seem high when you start taking a few units and you run out of points quick.

A friend on the UK tournament scene has run and done quite well with a 2k Deadwatch list. He really liked it and has some solid result against decent players/lists in big events, so that says its pretty solid to me. His list had 3 units of 6, and was exactly what i was building towards. I have considered a few lists this last week with unit numbers 9, 6 and 3. the unit of 9 will be so good with all the attacks and number of times they can potentially fight in 1 turn, while also lasting a lot longer and being a big board space presence. 

Anyone used the Crypt Flayers in large units like this?

[Okami]

7 minutes ago, ChippyRick said:

Cool to see this up, great idea. I have recently jumped on to Death, but always wanted to be going full FEC.

I have a Deadwatch army now, not fully built yet but really to get it on the table this year. I am slightly holding back to see if anything changes with GHB2 if i am honest, and i hoped (doubtful it will) that somewhere with the Deadwatch units/formation we might see a few points drops. I do think they are good and viable, just you dont see them much and maybe a little drop in points somewhere could help. I have not played at all with them and they may not need this at all, but i play with a lot of other units in the game and these seem high when you start taking a few units and you run out of points quick.

A friend on the UK tournament scene has run and done quite well with a 2k Deadwatch list. He really liked it and has some solid result against decent players/lists in big events, so that says its pretty solid to me. His list had 3 units of 6, and was exactly what i was building towards. I have considered a few lists this last week with unit numbers 9, 6 and 3. the unit of 9 will be so good with all the attacks and number of times they can potentially fight in 1 turn, while also lasting a lot longer and being a big board space presence. 

Anyone used the Crypt Flayers in large units like this?

I reckon they don't need that much of a Point Drop, I want to see the Crypt Ghouls have a point drop as they don't do a lot and only good in the ghoul patrol from what I see. They aren't any better then zombies, yet zombies have a cool merge unit rule that I reckon the Crypt Ghouls should of been given as well. Just for a Death battleline unit not alot of people pick them to fill in their TAX. Mainly fill it with zombies, if they had a point drop I reckon you would see them on the table a lot more. Also would make Ghoul patrol a huge Go To Mix death list battalion. 

If you don't mind me asking did you friend with 2K deadwatch List also run to big beasties? 

Also was thinking of running a large unit, however their attack is only 1", if it was 2" then Yeah 100% but you won't get the full effect of the unit of 9", thats why ill be running 2 x units of 6. However still give it ago! Would ruin those BCR models! 

-Okami

[Guest]

The FEC lore is superb and inspiring. It's a gift for people like me who love converting models. Unfortunately while the mustering mechanic is fun, this is the army's only trick so they can be a bit bland if you don't mix in other factions. On the flip side, the fact that there are no allegiance abilities means that there's no reason not to mix in other factions.

I feel kind of ambivalent about allegiance abilities in general because on the one hand I feel that it's an extra layer of rules that wasn't needed, but at their best they have the potential to customise the theme of your army in interesting and fluffy ways. Khorne is one example of an army that I think didn't need any more toys at all, but if any army does it's FEC.

I'm working on a FEC warband for Hinterlands at the moment and loving it. Mixing in Bretonnian bits really gives them the dark courtly vibe that the lore evokes, but which the models don't really project. It may become a full army one day. We'll see.

[ChippyRick]

4 hours ago, Okami said:

I reckon they don't need that much of a Point Drop, I want to see the Crypt Ghouls have a point drop as they don't do a lot and only good in the ghoul patrol from what I see. They aren't any better then zombies, yet zombies have a cool merge unit rule that I reckon the Crypt Ghouls should of been given as well. Just for a Death battleline unit not alot of people pick them to fill in their TAX. Mainly fill it with zombies, if they had a point drop I reckon you would see them on the table a lot more. Also would make Ghoul patrol a huge Go To Mix death list battalion. 

If you don't mind me asking did you friend with 2K deadwatch List also run to big beasties? 

Also was thinking of running a large unit, however their attack is only 1", if it was 2" then Yeah 100% but you won't get the full effect of the unit of 9", thats why ill be running 2 x units of 6. However still give it ago! Would ruin those BCR models! 

-Okami

I agree, it doesnt need much. Maybe just a few here and there or even just the formation points as you dont see these units taken much at all, but with a decent and not to high points formation it might encourage it more it mixed lists as well as full Deadwatch army.

I am thinking 9 because there is a lot of big monsters and big units out there so having the larger numbers isnt as much of a problem. But also with the high volume of shooting damage it takes longer to get through them and also they last longer to be able to grow models back.

The list had 1 GK on Zombie Dragon, some heroes and 3 units of 6 Flayers.

[wayniac]

I love the lore for Flesh-Eater Courts.  However I think the army suffers from several things:

1. Everything is tied to low-wound, poor-save heroes.  As long as there's no way short of cowering behind a building to stop heroes being sniped out, I think FEC suffer greatly.  It is my hope that the newly-revealed 40k character rules in regards to shooting (you cannot target a character unless they are the closest model; with some exceptions) will be backported to AOS to fix this.
2. Being forced to take a courtier as the general to unlock Horrors/Flayers as battleline; for me this is a huge bugbear as it's incredibly unfluffy to have a Ghoul King on the battlefield but a henchman as the general because of an arbitrary restriction.
3. In general the army playstyle being "throw a bucket of dice, force enough saves so your opponent has to fail".
4. Death being Death, you are often forced to mix and match various units to get the best result
5. The army seems to work best in Open Play as opposed to the more rigid Matched Play

I tend to prefer a balanced list, favouring horrors over flayers as shock troops.  I also try to avoid the Ghoul Patrol despite how good it is because it plays into the third playstyle which I find to be incredibly boring.

So far I have been a fan of the Abattoir Battalion, and I have tried to fit in two kings on monsters (one on Terrorgheist, one on Zombie Dragon) because a big block of Horrors that re-roll misses due to being by a king and re-rolling wounds due to the AGKoZD's spell, optionally with two 5+ (Unholy Vigour and Ruler of the Night) ward saves and backed up with replenishment is incredibly hard to get rid of unless the entire unit is wiped out, however often Battleline requirements tends to ****** over that approach with its restrictions.

So what do I want to see?  Well first, a way to protect my characters.  I think this should be a global rule but at the least FEC should have some way to represent the heroic men at arms gladly giving their life for their liege and his noble court.  I think that Battleline should only require FEC allegiance (similar to how Ironjawz are currently) to get rid of the incredibly unfluffy general restriction.

As it stands, I find the army to be in a weird place where the playstyle relies on rolling buckets of dice, which is incredibly boring, but the fluff is some of the best in Age of Sigmar.

[L.Bromley]

I have only used FEC in AOS and absolutely love them, by far the best back storyline in the mortal realms so far, the most thematic army in open play, love bringing on hordes of ghouls from every table edge it just looks super cool. Also done fairly well at matched play with this list:

Ghoul king on terrorgheist (general, cursed book, red fury)

Ghoul king on zombie dragon

vargulf

Haunter (cursed book)

3 x 10 ghouls

9 horrors

3 flayers

royal mordant formation

Army plays really well, haunter sits in the horrors and runs up with the GKOZD, when he gets his spell off this unit become ace, re-rolling to hit and wound and minus one to hit plus regen and calling horrors back they become super tanky. The flayers come on the back board edge using GKOTG command ability and are used to challenge enemy shooters or war machines which is super useful and yet I never see anyone really use it and just complain that it's useless in matched play.

[ZealousJ]

@L.Bromley

Nice summary. Interesting take on the ghoul kings summoning ability. I'll have to have a proper think about its uses.

 

Just wondering, how useful do you find the minimum Ghoul units? Do they get much done or do they just camp on objectives?

[L.Bromley]

29 minutes ago, ZealousJ said:

@L.Bromley

Nice summary. Interesting take on the ghoul kings summoning ability. I'll have to have a proper think about its uses.

 

Just wondering, how useful do you find the minimum Ghoul units? Do they get much done or do they just camp on objectives?

Cheers pal, yeah the GK ability is really useful, you should definitely try it out. It's won me so many games.

as for the ghouls, they only really come into there own in big blocks, I use the three tens just for points cheapness, depending on scenario depends on how I use them. They come in handy running them in three ten blocks and keep them close together, looks like a thirty, (but you need to clearly separate) supported by the vargulf ,but the front ten are part of the formation, they get charged into into combat probably get beat but if lucky don't get battle shocked off, the formation means you can move one unit in the hero phase, move them out of combat freeing your other two units to go in and then get replenished by the vargulf.

I some times run the two big up one flank and run a ten man ghouls behind, the monster smash the whole flank and the ghouls just capture once the coast is clear.

 

[wayniac]

I never actually noticed that the Royal mordants Battalion was a regular move.

However just a note you cannot actually field that Battalion without having the flayers on the board at the start you cannot summon them because that will not count for the battalion

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[L.Bromley]

6 hours ago, wayniac said:

I never actually noticed that the Royal mordants Battalion was a regular move.

However just a note you cannot actually field that Battalion without having the flayers on the board at the start you cannot summon them because that will not count for the battalion

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 

Yeah I had a feeling I may of been playing it wrong, although I was in my local GW and they told me that the GK ability is not summoning as it is not a spell an the unit deploys like stormcast in the celestial realm for example. It's the only reason why I have used it

[wayniac]

On 5/20/2017 at 2:59 AM, L.Bromley said:

Yeah I had a feeling I may of been playing it wrong, although I was in my local GW and they told me that the GK ability is not summoning as it is not a spell an the unit deploys like stormcast in the celestial realm for example. It's the only reason why I have used it

Unfortunately no.  The Stormcast one is where you pay for a unit and choose not to deploy it, the summoning is just "summon any of X" that you have points for, it's not like a reserve ability (although that would be fairly cool!)

[L.Bromley]

Yeah I know that's the general rule for summoning, is it not slightly different with FEC? Being that it's your generals command ability and not a summoning spell. And that you are limited to what you can bring on the board, depending on which GK option you take.

[tea_wild_owl]

13 hours ago, L.Bromley said:

Yeah I know that's the general rule for summoning, is it not slightly different with FEC? Being that it's your generals command ability and not a summoning spell. And that you are limited to what you can bring on the board, depending on which GK option you take.

but you can choose between horrors and flayers, and you could summon something else, so it's not fixed on your list (only how much points you have left). so even when you say you only want to get these flayers, they are still reinforcements. plus consider that  they are called 'reinforcement points' and not 'summoning points' as often stated incorrect

[L.Bromley]

1 hour ago, tea_wild_owl said:

but you can choose between horrors and flayers, and you could summon something else, so it's not fixed on your list (only how much points you have left). so even when you say you only want to get these flayers, they are still reinforcements. plus consider that  they are called 'reinforcement points' and not 'summoning points' as often stated incorrect

Yeah this all makes sense, looks like the flayers are gonna have to start on the board if I want that second artefact.

[wayniac]

Correct.

I have been thinking of the following at 2k, need to try it a bit more, but my group is very laid back so it's hard to gauge "effectiveness" in a true competitive setting since none of us are:

Allegiance: Death
Abhorrant Ghoul King (100)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Night
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon (400)
- Artefact: Cursed Book
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)
Varghulf Courtier (160)
Crypt Ghast Courtier (80)
Crypt Ghast Courtier (80)
20 x Crypt Ghouls (200)
20 x Crypt Ghouls (200)
10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)
6 x Crypt Horrors (280)

Total: 2000/2000
 

Basically I deploy in an imagined pitched battle line, with the 10 ghoul "skirmishers" in front of my cavalry (Horrors) which act as a second wave and two blocks of infantry with their captains (the 20 strong blocks of ghouls with courtiers) on either flank.  The king on foot and Varghulf back up the 10-strong ghouls and horrors, with the two kings on monsters being on either side between the 20-strong blocks and the center.  Against an army without shooting it can be crazy because I can easily win on attrition and send my kings on monsters to kill key pieces, while the 10 strong unit blocks for the horrors, then if they are still alive after being charged they retreat to let the horrors (hopefully under all the buffs) charge in and smash aside the enemy.

[L.Bromley]

1 hour ago, wayniac said:

Allegiance: Death
Abhorrant Ghoul King (100)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Night
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon (400)
- Artefact: Cursed Book
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)
Varghulf Courtier (160)
Crypt Ghast Courtier (80)
Crypt Ghast Courtier (80)
20 x Crypt Ghouls (200)
20 x Crypt Ghouls (200)
10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)
6 x Crypt Horrors (280)

Total: 2000/2000
 

It's a good well balanced list, I would be a bit concerned over the GK on foot being your general, he can be very squishy, and if he is running with the ten ghouls than that's next to no protection, if he goes down you lose that great trait.

1 hour ago, wayniac said:

Basically I deploy in an imagined pitched battle line, with the 10 ghoul "skirmishers" in front of my cavalry (Horrors) which act as a second wave and two blocks of infantry with their captains (the 20 strong blocks of ghouls with courtiers) on either flank.  The king on foot and Varghulf back up the 10-strong ghouls and horrors, with the two kings on monsters being on either side between the 20-strong blocks and the center.  Against an army without shooting it can be crazy because I can easily win on attrition and send my kings on monsters to kill key pieces, while the 10 strong unit blocks for the horrors, then if they are still alive after being charged they retreat to let the horrors (hopefully under all the buffs) charge in and smash aside the enemy.

This is a sound plan if your going toe to toe against someone like another combat army, who are your objective grabbers? The war of attrition is our best friend but against shooting it's vital you keep the courtiers alive.

Have you tried Ghoul patrol?

[wayniac]

I have, I don't like Ghoul Patorl because A) It's a braindead choice for me, just take 3x 30 ghouls and roll a bucket of dice, and B) it can often just break scenarios by coming on the flanks/behind.  Since my group tends to play very laid back and casual, I try to avoid doing that because it tends to not be a fun game.

[LJ26]

8 minutes ago, wayniac said:

I have, I don't like Ghoul Patorl because A) It's a braindead choice for me, just take 3x 30 ghouls and roll a bucket of dice, and B) it can often just break scenarios by coming on the flanks/behind.  Since my group tends to play very laid back and casual, I try to avoid doing that because it tends to not be a fun game.

Wayniac,  I remember reading a lot of  complaints from you about FEC in your local meta. Has that since changed? I started with FEC but have since gone death GA,  mainly bc of the same complaints a lot of people have with them. I'm gonna go back, probably buy the skirmish box wich would give me a nice 40 ghoul unit, 12 horrors, varghulf and haunter courtier. Wish I had built the terrorghiest now instead of the zombie dragon tho 

[wayniac]

Just now, LJ26 said:

Wayniac,  I remember reading a lot of  complaints from you about FEC in your local meta. Has that since changed? I started with FEC but have since gone death GA,  mainly bc of the same complaints a lot of people have with them. I'm gonna go back, probably buy the skirmish box wich would give me a nice 49 ghoul unit, 12 horrors, varghulf and haunter courtier. Wish I had built the terrorghiest now instead of the zombie dragon tho 

Not really, but since we have practically 0 people who play competitive it really doesn't matter to me as long as the game is interesting and not a bland boring "line up and fight" sort of affair.  I am slowly working on trying to introduce more narrative or even open (if I can get people out of the "balanced" fear) because I find the Pitched Battle scenarios to be dreadfully boring.

[L.Bromley]

Well current meta wise FEC are nowhere near the top, so hopefully if you were receiving any complaints they have now stopped.

i too don't like ghoul patrol but you was taking 50 ghouls plus two ghasts so it could of been an option. If you play narrative and open then FEC are ace, full of character and really thematic.

28 minutes ago, LJ26 said:

40 ghoul unit, 12 horrors, varghulf and haunter courtier.

12 horrors, is this two sixes of one crazy block?

[LJ26]

I like one crazy block, there's PLENTY of things that can off a six man block in 1 round of combat or a double turn. I stopped using horrors for skellies bc they were more cost efficient (used for the same purpose, heavy damage output but no rend)  but they can get battle shocked off very easily where as horrors cannot. 

[L.Bromley]

15 minutes ago, LJ26 said:

I like one crazy block, there's PLENTY of things that can off a six man block in 1 round of combat or a double turn. I stopped using horrors for skellies bc they were more cost efficient (used for the same purpose, heavy damage output but no rend)  but they can get battle shocked off very easily where as horrors cannot. 

Do you find the footprint works for or against you? 48 wounds is a lot to churn through but 560pts for no rend is a big investment