Double Cabbage

[Fungrim]

Has anyone every tried it? Is it absolute madness? Even pre-GHB2, is it worth a punt?

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (520)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (520)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- Ironjawz Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Ironjawz Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Ironjawz Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Ironjawz Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Ironjawz Battleline

Battalions
Ironfist (60)

Total: 2000/2000
 

[Tom]

Defo worth it!! Even if only for the look on your opponents face when you put them down! 

[Solaris]

That is absolute madness. In fact, it's so much madness that you should paint them as Spartans.

[Fungrim]

I mean, I don't own a 2nd cabbage.... but I do have a healthy amount of FLGS vouchers that need spending, so it's absolutely an option 

[Sangfroid]

It's a dream I have harboured for a long time (I think me and @Chris Tomlin have yapped about it in whatsapp) my hope is in GHB2 we see around a 60-80 point drop in cabbage tax so you can field that but with a couple of warchanters or a shaman (or foot boss) for maximum effort! 

As it stands now I'd probably suggest at least 2 units of gorepigs in the "5" Ironfist units as these will be able to keep pace with the cabbages and then screen off both flanks should you not get the charges off to limit the abilty for the enemy to get bodies in to fight the cababges. 

 

[Solaris]

13 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:

It's a dream I have harboured for a long time (I think me and @Chris Tomlin have yapped about it in whatsapp) my hope is in GHB2 we see around a 60-80 point drop in cabbage tax so you can field that but with a couple of warchanters or a shaman (or foot boss) for maximum effort! 

As it stands now I'd probably suggest at least 2 units of gorepigs in the "5" Ironfist units as these will be able to keep pace with the cabbages and then screen off both flanks should you not get the charges off to limit the abilty for the enemy to get bodies in to fight the cababges. 

 

Expanding on this, the question is if this is a good application for the Gorefist? Bog the enemy down ASAP and pick prime targets for the Maw-krushas without fear of being flanked.

[Chris Tomlin]

26 minutes ago, Solaris said:

Expanding on this, the question is if this is a good application for the Gorefist? Bog the enemy down ASAP and pick prime targets for the Maw-krushas without fear of being flanked.

No. The 120 point tax for that battalion would be utterly crippling in this kind of list IMO  
However, this is exactly the sort of thing the GH2 could potentially help with (not that I like to speculate on that, would rather just wait and see).

As @Sangfroid said, we've both toyed with the double Cabbage idea for some time now, but unfortunately I just don't think it's viable right now...if you're talking about a list that is attempting to do as well as it can in a 5 game tournament that is.

However, that said...it would be amazing fun and it some games would be outrageously destructive and win the day.

I think I'd go 10 Ardboys, 2x 5 Brutes and 2x 3 Gore-gruntas in the list above. Tagging a unit of pigs along with the Cabbage tends to work well in my usual list, so I'd probably double down on that.

Personally, I'll wait for the GH2 before purchasing my second Cabbage.

[Thalenchar]

Man, I would love to try this list... 

[Fungrim]

2 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

..if you're talking about a list that is attempting to do as well as it can in a 5 game tournament that is.

That's the thing I guess isn't it, 3pop would be a nightmare with that list.

If we're lucky there'll be better points and new scenarios  in GHB2, so in terms of the future, lets hope for exponential cabbage appearances!

 

2 hours ago, Solaris said:

Expanding on this, the question is if this is a good application for the Gorefist? Bog the enemy down ASAP and pick prime targets for the Maw-krushas without fear of being flanked.

This is interesting, as is the idea of blocking out the cabbage's flanks with pigs to avoid the pile-in. At the moment I'd want quite a lot of bodies on the table though to be honest, the cabbages are the destructive vanguard, and the boyz & Brutes the objective-claiming infantry. 

 

 

 

It's an awkward time to be in now for IJ players. No new releases on the horizon, and only potential for points reductions in the next few months. But what do we do in the meantime? Thankfully most tournaments are falling after the period where we're expecting GHB2 to drop, so hopefully we'll have a better idea by then. I guess we just keep experimenting to pass the time!

[Chris Tomlin]

12 minutes ago, Fungrim said:

That's the thing I guess isn't it, 3pop would be a nightmare with that list.

If we're lucky there'll be better points and new scenarios  in GHB2, so in terms of the future, lets hope for exponential cabbage appearances!

Haha indeed! Love "exponential cabbage appearances"!!

13 minutes ago, Fungrim said:

It's an awkward time to be in now for IJ players. No new releases on the horizon, and only potential for points reductions in the next few months. But what do we do in the meantime? Thankfully most tournaments are falling after the period where we're expecting GHB2 to drop, so hopefully we'll have a better idea by then. I guess we just keep experimenting to pass the time!

Agreed. Tbh I think I've cracked the "best" list I can under the current iteration of the points and GH. Obviously as the meta shifts around us and we stay still () there is potential for new list variants to give us a better shot, but really I feel like we've been over it all now.

So...what do we do in the meantime? You're absolutely right, we experiment. Now for me, this experimentation is not around finding a strong build or anything. It's having fun with some odd lists and lesser used battalions etc. This double Cabbage list would certainly fit into that way of thinking for me.

Obviously these are just my thoughts, some of you may still be striving to find the new best thing for Ironjawz and that's cool as well. As long as we are all having fun, enjoying our last sips of Battle Brew and awaiting what the future may (or may not!) bring!

[Solaris]

9 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

So...what do we do in the meantime? You're absolutely right, we experiment. Now for me, this experimentation is not around finding a strong build or anything. It's having fun with some odd lists and lesser used battalions etc. This double Cabbage list would certainly fit into that way of thinking for me.

I honestly think that this experimentation is the most productive thing that can be done at the moment. It may not be conducive to finding the strongest list in the current meta, but we all know that big changes are on the horizon. By trying out as many things as possible and getting a breadth of experience, we will be in a better position to figure out what's strong once we see what the GH2 entails.

[ChippyRick]

I would love to see this list on the table. As a few have mentioned above already, this wont be the most competitive Ironjawz list for events but it will be awesome to play with, ans im sure pretty fun to be playing against.

Now i am not an Ironjawz player but played a decent amount with and have @Chris Tomlin and @Sangfroid talking to me SOOOOOOOO Much about them i do know a little :). Its the model numbers that would concern me atm, but if the Ironjaws points do come down a little i think you could be ahead of the game getting this done now. The speed of the army with the hero phase moves does allow you to keep up with the Mawcrusher which is nice. @Chris Tomlin makes a great comment re having the Gruntas for that as well.

If you give this a go would be great to hear how it goes.

[Soup Dragon]

2 hours ago, ChippyRick said:

Its the model numbers that would concern me atm

Depends what kind of game you are playing. My local GW store play 1500 point pick up games, so tomorrow I'm going down with:

Frostlord on Stonehorn
Stonehorn Beastriders
Stonehorn Beastriders
Thundertusk Beastriders

That's 1500 points exactly, 4 models, including a Leader and 3 Battleline, so totally legit. Will lose a lot of games, but will be FUN to play (for me anyway).

With the shooting Meta as it is, and the new shooty armies, I don't think Ironjawz are going to be competitive even with a 20% cut in points costs. They rely so much on letting opponent go first and then getting double turn and random chance means that's not gonna happen frequently enough to give any sort of consistency against top lists. Although with a points reduction they will stomp the mid and lower order armies a lot quicker.
 

[Chris Tomlin]

14 minutes ago, Soup Dragon said:

With the shooting Meta as it is, and the new shooty armies, I don't think Ironjawz are going to be competitive even with a 20% cut in points costs. They rely so much on letting opponent go first and then getting double turn and random chance means that's not gonna happen frequently enough to give any sort of consistency against top lists. Although with a points reduction they will stomp the mid and lower order armies a lot quicker.

Nailed it.

Some of us sickos can't help ourselves though Paul! Tbh it makes the high finishes (relatively speaking) all the more satisfying when they do happen though  

[Sangfroid]

22 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Nailed it.

Some of us sickos can't help ourselves though Paul! Tbh it makes the high finishes (relatively speaking) all the more satisfying when they do happen though  

Love the fact you optimistically said when Megaboss :-)

[Fungrim]

So... what I'm taking away from all this, is we all need at least one more cabbage.... for the narrative yeh?

Sold.

[Solaris]

17 hours ago, Soup Dragon said:

With the shooting Meta as it is, and the new shooty armies, I don't think Ironjawz are going to be competitive even with a 20% cut in points costs. They rely so much on letting opponent go first and then getting double turn and random chance means that's not gonna happen frequently enough to give any sort of consistency against top lists. Although with a points reduction they will stomp the mid and lower order armies a lot quicker.

A 20% points cut for Ironjawz and similar armies/units in conjunction with a price increase for the big bad shooty units could definitely swing the whole meta around. Massed shooting becomes so much less efficient when the opponent has such a numbers advantage that you cannot do any significant damage to their army before they swarm you. This is what I'm hoping for. Judging by the trial points for TK and Fyreslayers, GW seems to have a preference for changing the points in large swings, rather than in small increments. This makes me think that a huge meta upset is likely to happen with the release of GH2. Of course, this is a strategy that will also boost sales massively if they do it right.

[Fungrim]

Even if they cut the gruntas by 20 pts (180-160); shaman by 20 pts (120-100); and the cabbage by 120 pts (520-400) - you'd still only just squeeze in another unit of the newly costed gruntas.

And that's fantasy land (especially re the cabbage).

I know folks don't want to guess at stuff too much, but I'd agree that even with significant points drops, we won't all of a sudden be hyper competitive.

More realistically we'll get enough wiggle room to squeeze in another character. Which will be great! But not earth shattering.

[Solaris]

That's still under the assumption that nothing else changes though. I expect that the big bads will be nerfed beyond recognition, which would open up the field completely. Who knows what will come out strong at that point?

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

4 hours ago, Fungrim said:

Even if they cut the gruntas by 20 pts (180-160); shaman by 20 pts (120-100); and the cabbage by 120 pts (520-400) - you'd still only just squeeze in another unit of the newly costed gruntas.

And that's fantasy land (especially re the cabbage).

I know folks don't want to guess at stuff too much, but I'd agree that even with significant points drops, we won't all of a sudden be hyper competitive.

More realistically we'll get enough wiggle room to squeeze in another character. Which will be great! But not earth shattering.

This. Until Ironjawz gets its next battletome, we will still be practically be the same as before

[Soup Dragon]

13 hours ago, Solaris said:

GW seems to have a preference for changing the points in large swings, rather than in small increments.

I think I have to disagree with this @Solaris If you look at the points in the latest battletomes - Stormcast Eternals, Tzeench, and Khorne, then there has been almost no change in points costs, and I don't see GW contradicting the points that they have just given to these new Battletomes in the new GHB2. Don't hold your breath for big changes in other factions in GHB2.

[Solaris]

2 minutes ago, Soup Dragon said:

I think I have to disagree with this @Solaris If you look at the points in the latest battletomes - Stormcast Eternals, Tzeench, and Khorne, then there has been almost no change in points costs, and I don't see GW contradicting the points that they have just given to these new Battletomes in the new GHB2. Don't hold your breath for big changes in other factions in GHB2.

True, but these Battletomes instead made large changes to the armies themselves. The only time they made a pure change in points costs was to TK and Fyreslayers, and those changes were very drastic. Either way, it's pure speculation at this point. I do hope they shake things up though, and do something about this boring gunline meta that we are seeing. Any other changes are entirely secondary, as far as I'm concerned.

[Tuluth]

I still need to purchase my first Mawcrusher. Trying to get better with the airbrush before I step up to paint that model.

Off the opening topic, but continuing the conversation.

In regards to the next Ironjawz Battletome, I'm expecting the good shakeup for the army, and buffing/nerfing units. I'm also expecting a good reason to take the Ironjawz allegiance. Reason:

In GHB2, I'm expecting to see a nerf to the Destruction allegiance ability and Battlebrew (and to another extent restrict artifacts to no duplicates). It'll still be kept strong, but not the current strength it's at, that makes it preferable to the other two allegiances in a non-mixed army. I'm personally expecting either a flat move increase of 2", or D3", keeping the Ravager trait intact. Points adjustments will likely occur across the board and all unit types (even for newly released Battletomes, since it can be done all at once instead of faction by faction.

Thoughts?

[Payce]

I'd like to see something like this in GHB2;

Gordrakk - Drop his points by around 5-10%, still keeping him in line with things like Archy and Thunderthighs. 640 would be around right.

Cabbage - drop to 440, on par with the Zombie Dragon Lord.

Megaboss - is fine.

Warchanter - is more than fine.

Shaman - drop to 100. I'd personally like to see him at 80 but that would make him an auto-include in most lists, even mixed destro.

Ardboys - drop to 140, make default battleline without Ironjawz allegiance.

Gruntas - drop to 160.

Brutes - are fine.

 

I think what could really give Ironjawz some edge back is new and unique allegiance abilities. There have been rumoured Allegiance of the Realms-updates to all armies released pre-GHB1, and this could offer Ironjawz a lot of versatility. Some token of Mork that gives the unit in question -1 to get hit by shooting? One-use-only item that allows a run-and-charge? Arcane artefact that increases shaman cast values (and adds instability like the Bonesplittaz casters)? There's a tonne of options that can be explored through command traits, artifacts and allegiance abilities, that coupled with a decent points balancing would hopefully put us at least in line with Blades of Khorne.

[Solaris]

@Payce I think you're pretty much on point, although Ardboys at 140 AND generic battleline may be a bit too much. Allegiance abilities can certainly go a long way also.

I think the tone around here is a bit too dystopic in general. If the points are altered enough that Ironjawz can squeeze in another unit, and that the current power players lose out on one unit, that suddenly gives us a two-unit advantage compared to now. That could be enough to completely swing the game in our favor, and all that's required is 20-point increases/decreases here and there.

Of course, we shouldn't assume anything, neither good or bad. But jeez guys, brighten up for Gorkamorka's sake.