So....What Do We Do Against Massed Skyfires?

[Gauche]

Skyfires are a thing and here to stay until the next General's Handbook at least. If you've been paying attention to the competitive meta Skyfires are currently the thing to beat, adding up to a very point and click army that has strong alpha strike potential, good resiliency, and a surprisingly decent melee punch.

Skyfire Spam has two main variants, one is just all out spam with as many as you can bring, ala the recent SCGT list with 27 Skyfires and little else. The other variant is less Skyfires but more support as shown by the Adepticon winning list with 18 Skyfires, Kairos, LoC, Gaunt Summoner, etc. Both list types are potent but revolve around the same thing, table your opponent with Skyfires and their powerful shooting game.

Some Allegiances are already adapting to this with Stormcast taking the lead. Aetherstrike, Mirror Shield Star Drakes, and similar builds are becoming more and more popular because they handle Skyfires very well. Chaos, when not just taking their own Skyfires, seem to be looking at big alpha strikes and/or Magic. I'm not sure what Death is up to since they're very much out of the limelight for now.

What I haven't found is a good way for Destruction to handle these Skyfire armies without sacrificing our ability to beat other things. The two typical Destruction variants for competitive play are BCR/Grots and Kunnin' Rukk. Both of these seem to have very little game into Skyfires when the Chaos player does everything properly. This is because of the huge threat range Skyfires have, 40", meaning we will always take the big first punch unless the Chaos player makes a mistake.

18 Skyfires can nearly kill two Thundertusks a turn or wipe out 10 Arrowboys in a turn. 27 Skyfires kill around 15 Arrowboys and will pretty easily finish off two Thundertusks. Against melee heavy armies they have incredible speed, bring screens in all list variants, and aren't even bad in melee. It's also pretty simple for them to inflict a few big Battleshocks a turn and snipe key Heroes so something like double Kunnin' Rukk will struggle to pump out the offense.

120 Arrowboys shots (40 Models) with a +1 to Hit from either Bonesplitterz or Destruction will inflict just over 30 Wounds, which kills 5 Skyfires, so the unit gets wiped on a Battleshock of 5+, if not they possibly come back to Fold Reality from the army. It is also very unlikely a Big Boss will survive past Turn 1 barring LoS Terrain.

Deploying on the back board edge still leaves you in threat range because they can go 12"+40" and get to almost any model, barring the Escalation Scenario. The only exception I can see to this is being able to bluff an alpha strike, which can really only happen with Kunnin' Rukk or Thundertusks since the Skyfires can be screened by Marauders. Even our longest threat, Stonehorns, go an average of 12"+12"+2d6"+2d6", which is an average of a 38" Turn 1 threat. You can possible add 2" to that for Rampager but then you likely have no Arrowboys and will struggle to remove the screen.

The point is there's no reliable way to hit them first as unless your army has a very specific makeup which allows you to bait out the Skyfires to force them either forward or back but then also finish deploying before the Chaos player. Battalions are obviously the best for this and it can force the game into a weird state depending on what happens.

Overall I've found no satisfying way to counter Skyfires with Destruction. They present the same issue as Kurnoth Hunters, another bane, in that we have zero anti-Shooting tech that's reliable and have a hard time getting to/killing them without losing to much of our army. The best thing I've found is using Talisman of Protection on my important Heroes but that's not a great counter and there are never enough Artefacts to go around.

The list that I've thought of where Skyfires may struggle is double Kunnin' Rukk with Talismans on both Big Bosses making it likely one will survive. From there you could wipe out maybe a unit and a half, maybe, and should be able to roll over the remaining army. The issue is one Arrowboys unit will have pretty terrible Bravery and is very vulnerable to Battleshock, also double Kunnin' Rukk just hard loses to stuff like Aetherstrike, Star Drakes with Mirror Shields, Khemist spam, and a few other things.

That turned into a bit of a rant, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Does anyone have any ideas for how to counter Skyfires while we wait for them to go to 180 Points per 3? Please note that I'm talking about at least 18 with a Shaman, not lists that only take a few and aren't spamming for competitive reasons.

[Chris Thompson]

I'm going to try a list with atleast 1 Dread Maw in it as I face hunters a lot , on paper a great threat and it's got Maw in its name , so fits my ogres


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[Gauche]

I think it'd be hard to deliver because of the base size and the predictability/cost. The damage output is also a bit meh so getting through the Marauder screen and getting some business done is questionable.

[Thanatos Ares]

I'm going to try a list with atleast 1 Dread Maw in it as I face hunters a lot , on paper a great threat and it's got Maw in its name , so fits my ogres [emoji4]


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Proper greenskin logic [emoji1360]


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[Fungrim]

From an Ironjawz perspective, I'd just hope to tie them up with Gruntas for a turn (in which the poor piggies will die pretty quickly), long enough for as many Brutes as I can spare to run over and get in their face. The Brutes will get their re-rolls due to the Skyfire wound count so should grind through them fairly well.

Would also hope to get the cabbage with Talisman in as well. If he gets the charge off the destructive bulk would hopefully ping one off at the very least. That is the positive for our allegiance, our speed means if we can pin them in quick enough, and get our key units in the right place, we might have a chance.

I say this from a complete point of ignorance however, as I've not had the pleasure of playing them yet. I'm sure once I have I won't be as optimistic...

[KnightFire]

Yea I have found ironfist brutes are a good answer to skyfires if you can get them in. The skyfires are ok in combat, but not brute standard. You are still quite dependent on a double turn still though (but thats always the case with ironjawz) and really suffer if your opponent uses a lot of their destiny dice to pass their first load of armor saves. 

[Turragor]

What if you took lists with lots of thundertusks and made them lots of stonehorns instead?

[Fungrim]

24 minutes ago, KnightFire said:

Yea I have found ironfist brutes are a good answer to skyfires if you can get them in. The skyfires are ok in combat, but not brute standard. You are still quite dependent on a double turn still though (but thats always the case with ironjawz) and really suffer if your opponent uses a lot of their destiny dice to pass their first load of armor saves. 

Destiny dice, forgot about that delight *shudders*

[ChippyRick]

I am going with 2 dragons . Surely that is just the answer for everything though!!

[Fungrim]

14 minutes ago, ChippyRick said:

I am going with 2 dragons . Surely that is just the answer for everything though!!

Depends on the dragon!

[Gaz Taylor]

I don't think Skyfires will be as much as an issue in the future once the next version of the Generals Handbook lands and the Kharadron Overlords are settled in. But until then, they are an issue. I would be very tempted with the following list...

Allegiance: Destruction
Savage Big Boss (100)
- Granite Choppas 
- Artefact: Talisman of Protection
Savage Big Boss (100)
- Granite Choppas 
- Artefact: Talisman of Protection
10 x Savage Orruks (100)
10 x Savage Orruks (100)
10 x Savage Orruks (100)
10 x Savage Orruks (100)
10 x Savage Orruks (100)
10 x Savage Orruks (100)
12 x Fimir Warriors (480)
- General
- Trait: Ravager
30 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (300)
30 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (300)
Kunnin' Rukk (60)
Kunnin' Rukk (60)

Total: 2000/2000

So many targets that unless you have all the Skyfires possible, you will struggle to deal with it. I would argue that you would put Bellowing Tyrant on the Fimir but I think Ravager is interesting as it gets them into combat more quickly and makes them more scary. The Kunnin' Rukks take out prime targets or move to spots and camp down. Issue with this list is that it would probably take forever to play!

[Fungrim]

2 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

12 x Fimir Warriors (480)
- General
- Trait: Ravage

First time I've looked at these in AoS- very interesting! Although not sure why it even gives you the option to take the hand weapons over the Maul...

[Gaz Taylor]

Yeah I'm really surprised we aren't seeing them more often. I think you would have the option as some people might like the look of hand weapons over mauls.... 

Also if I was to tweak that list above, I would include some grot shamans to be able to cast mystic shield (you would have two as redundancy)  

[Oppenheimer]

My solution is simple and fool proof. I'm not going to play against anyone who cheeses a list like that. ?

But then I just play friendly games down at the club.

I am surprised people like AoS for tournaments so much. Coming up against lists like that is common and does not seem like any fun.

[Gaz Taylor]

1 minute ago, Oppenheimer said:

My solution is simple and fool proof. I'm not going to play against anyone who cheeses a list like that. ?

But then I just play friendly games down at the club.

I am surprised people like AoS for tournaments so much. Coming up against lists like that is common and does not seem like any fun.

My list or the Skyfire list? 

I can understand why some players are hesitant against these sorts of lists and see Tournaments as evil but they are fun. The lists like what won the SCGT aren't mega common as players like to do their own thing. When you do see them, it really does depend on the player who is using them. The issue with Skyfires is that they are quite cheap for what they can do and should really cost at least 200 points a unit, but this is something I'm not going to worry too much about as I'm fully expecting the next Generals Handbook to do something about it. 

I like tournaments as I get to see my mates and meet new people  

[Fungrim]

1 minute ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I like tournaments as I get to see my mates and meet new people  

What Gaz said here is spot on @Oppenheimer - tournaments are great mate honestly.

I've only been to a few but I think it's a testament to AoS that the more you learn, play and improve, you've always got a chance because of the objectives, terrain, turn-roll etc. That was the biggest learning curve for myself and Ironjawz, coming to the realisation that there's more than 1 way to win a game.

Hitting back at the 'cheese' list point. I know what you mean... but it's not as bad as it looks. The first time I played Kunnin Rukk I was pretty aghast if I'm honest, 90 shots a turn (or more!) just churning through everything (whilst Thundertusks and Stonehorns ran in). I then played a similar list fairly recently, and although I lost again (bahhh), it was much *much* closer (because I played for the objective). 

It's all about what you expect from it really, and what you take away afterwards. 

[ChippyRick]

2 hours ago, Fungrim said:

Depends on the dragon!

Just a couple of Magma Dragons 

[Fungrim]

7 minutes ago, ChippyRick said:

Just a couple of Magma Dragons 

Did it just get hot in here?

[FRoper]

2 hours ago, Fungrim said:

Did it just get hot in here?

evidently something in the atmosphere.

[Galas]

4 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Yeah I'm really surprised we aren't seeing them more often. I think you would have the option as some people might like the look of hand weapons over mauls.... 

Also if I was to tweak that list above, I would include some grot shamans to be able to cast mystic shield (you would have two as redundancy)  

Maybe for the Forgeworld price of the unit-champion?

I love them, and they are very good, but the fact that you need to buy the hero separated, his price, and that if you buy a box of warriors and a hero you have 1 warrior that you can't use... very annoying!

[kozokus]

Just put 20 Mortar thunderers with 4-6 aetherkhemist and BUUUURN THEEEM! and become the new skyfire.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

Or take 25 skyfires? Tzaangor heresy? Age of tzaangor? Warhammer tzaangor? 

[Sleboda]

Fight boring with boring. That'll kill all enjoyment of the game and maybe convince ppl to be more human.

[Bradifer]

@Gauche I've read your blog and its been interesting seeing the hyper competitive angle from destruction.

Do you know your win/loss records?

What were they before/after encountering skyfire spam?

I've made my opinion on spammy lists clear in other threads, and I'm not too worried about Skyfires as the GHB 2.0 is around the corner and they have plenty of things to answer, Skyfire is just on the list.

[Gauche]

28 minutes ago, Bradifer said:

@Gauche I've read your blog and its been interesting seeing the hyper competitive angle from destruction.

Do you know your win/loss records?

What were they before/after encountering skyfire spam?

I've made my opinion on spammy lists clear in other threads, and I'm not too worried about Skyfires as the GHB 2.0 is around the corner and they have plenty of things to answer, Skyfire is just on the list.

I think my win loss record is such and such and zero with my serious list. I'm sort of the competitive pioneer in my meta which is both rapidly growing and rapidly getting more competitive with people coming from 40K and Warmachine. I have yet to go against Skyfire Spam as no one plays that here. However I partially play wargames for the puzzle solving element and Skyfires are a puzzle right now.

I will also be attending a very large event later this year, which may include Skyfire Spam as we have no firm date about the next GHB so I don't assume anything is fixed until: A. I get a date from GW and B. See Skyfires nerfed.

I don't like spammy lists either (and I play one) so I'd be happy to see certain things nerfed but until that happens I play the game as is.

@Gaz Taylor Wow those Warriors aren't bad, I haven't seen them before now. Generally I shy away from FW solutions but they may actually help solve a lot of the issues for double Kunnin' Rukk. I think the big monsters from FW are not a real answer but they might be something to those Fimirs.

 

I'm also unconvinced by any Ironjawz build but I'd have to see it played, even with their speed they're going to lose so many important models before they can actually get to the Skyfires and Ironjawz aren't setting the world on fire competitively right now. Hopefully they get much needed point reductions in the next GHB but as I said, not counting on anything but the present.