KnightFire Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Just now, Sleboda said: But that's not a "game" about how to play. It's quite simply your strategy. Deck building games are not called that because you play some sort of game with an objective of building a deck. They are called that because you need to assemble a deck in order to play. Picking your cards isn't a game. It's a step in your preparation to play a game. AoS could be called a "miniature collecting, assembling, and painting game." That does not make any of those activities games themselves. Asking one's self "How shall I take into account defenses against mortals wounds" is not a game at all, let alone a game about games. Even Fantasy Football is not a metagame. It's just a game based on statistics from another game. A metagame would need to be a game where the players take actions (within that game, while playing it) that, for instance, result in your character/token getting permission from mom to go to Ted's for game night. A game about games. While I get that the term metagaming has some highly limited validity based on massive hijacking and misuse (thus evolving the language in the same way that slang does), the use of "meta" on its own to rebrand, so to speak, the existing and perfectly functional and effective terms such as "environment" or "popularity " or "strategy" is just poor. I didn't invent game theory, so its not up to me how it uses the terminology, however I think it comes from the fact that those choices themselves do create a game (a game of rock/paper/scissors as I described). You are trying to work out what your opponents are going to pick, and make your choices accordingly. With regard to your comment about having to take actions within the game - that would just be another aspect of "the game". The point of a metagame is its the game outside the game. It is not at all "hijacking and misuse" - its being used exactly as intended in game theory, the reduction of the choices made about how to approach a game into another game (in this case, rock, paper scissors). Meta is (and has been since I was young, which was a very very long time ago) a shorthand for metagame in this case (and was when I was studying game theory at university in 1997, so its not a new thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, Auticus said: To some, gaming the meta IS a type of game unto itself. Just because I decide to call a tulip an automobile doesn't make it one. ☺ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 30 minutes ago, Sleboda said: Just because I decide to call a tulip an automobile doesn't make it one. ☺ That comparison simply doesn't apply. If you want to go cars, racing them is the game, or the fun. But some of those racers will find tuning their car, making the tweaks to make it as fast/roadworthy/whatever as possible, to be a game/fun unto itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 48 minutes ago, Furious said: That comparison simply doesn't apply. My point is that it's easy to day that a thing is what you say it is when you start out by inventing a new definition for it and ignoring existing ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightFire Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 On 5/3/2017 at 6:40 PM, Sleboda said: My point is that it's easy to day that a thing is what you say it is when you start out by inventing a new definition for it and ignoring existing ones. No one has invented a new definition, the use of meta as a shortened version of metagame is completely correct within the terminology of game theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trout Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 On 4/29/2017 at 0:44 PM, Sleboda said: Just because a term gets wrongly used a bunch of times, doesn't mean it becomes right. Actually, it does mean exactly that. Thus why "literally" can now also mean "figuratively"; people have used it enough that it acquired a new definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted May 16, 2017 Author Share Posted May 16, 2017 True, as I pointed out with my "'ain't" reference, we do indeed have a history of normalizing mass ignorance rather than risk looking like poindexters and being among the few who stand up to support elevating rather than sinking to create the new level of normal - especially here in America where stupidity is practically a professional sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Did thou knowest of this improper use of the word "you" in reference to a single person? What an abomination to the english language! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roberto Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 8 hours ago, Trout said: Actually, it does mean exactly that. Thus why "literally" can now also mean "figuratively"; people have used it enough that it acquired a new definition. LOL "I could care less" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trout Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 15 hours ago, roberto said: LOL "I could care less" Same here. For all intensive purposes, it's the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roberto Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Trout said: Same here. For all intensive purposes, it's the same thing. Both cases are opposites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Jeez Louise... Meta nerd-short for Metagame to me refers to playing area expectations. Which leads to local meta, tournament meta and sometimes even refers to underlying rules debate. "The meta is full of uber Missle Attacks" is often not an objective metagame analysis but instead wants to adress Missle Attack rules in a subjective manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Is it a word anyone has heard used outside of the internet? I certainly haven't in fact I suspect it's the sort of thing that causes raised eyebrows in real life. A bit like using the word, synergy, which makes me cringe every time I write it, there's no way I'm saying that in conversation without being accused of being a reject from The Apprentice. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veterannoob Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 16 hours ago, Trout said: Same here. For all intensive purposes, it's the same thing. irregardless of that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 13 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said: Is it a word anyone has heard used outside of the internet? I certainly haven't in fact I suspect it's the sort of thing that causes raised eyebrows in real life. A bit like using the word, synergy, which makes me cringe every time I write it, there's no way I'm saying that in conversation without being accused of being a reject from The Apprentice. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk No, because if you start to play these things become obvious. In almost all cases you bring what you have and think is good. It does help to know what others play but you can just ask. The only thing I do think can come up is tournament meta guesses. Though in AoS there arnt too many hard counters so it matters less as with MtG for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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