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Let's chat Kharadron Overlords


Dez

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2 hours ago, Sactownbri said:

Everyone keeps talking about this weapon or that on the Thunderers. I figured people would like to see the statistics of how each weapon performs.
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So if I look at just average rolls across the spectrum, that is middle for shots and middle on damage, and plot out the statistics against likely saves it is interesting. This is 10 Thunderers plus the buff of a single Khemist. Highlights in shots are the variable weapons.
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What I found surprising was just how meh the mortars are. Gun butts are garbage so ALWAYS scoot out of combat. Here is what it looks like graphed.
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Cannons are best but can be unreliable due to the damage roll. Rifles are the most dependable weapons, having the flattest damage curve. On hot rolls the deck gun and the fumigators are the best. Mortars have their range going for them.

There you have it, take it for what you will.


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Thanks I'd been wondering about the damage output, but you forgot the biggest variable: Range. All the other weapons have to get up close to do their damage, next turn they die. With Mortars, if you deploy on your board edge you are forcing your opponent to come to you. You, because you are smart, will have chaff units (Arkanaut Company) in the way so your Mortars will be hard to get to. You will also be taking out anything that can threaten your Mortars with Light Skyhooks and Endrinriggers.

Now this may change in the GHB 2...it may not. But as long as Mortars have a 36" range and stackable Khemist buffs they will rule.

 

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I've taken @Sactownbri's idea a bit further and posted it on GDrive, if anyone wants to take a look at it.

I added options for unit size, ToHit and ToWound modifiers, re-rolls of ones or fails ToHit ToWound or Saves, as well as any number of Khemist buffs between 0 and 6.

As previously discussed, as soon as a single Khemist enters the equation the Cannon becomes by far the best option in terms of average number of wounds caused, whereas without any the Fumigator generally does more wounds.

Here's the link, if anyone wants to play around with the numbers (btw, sorry, can't get GSheets to display the series labels in the graphs) :

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lRVVJ47umoKy0FlD9zqa1Bi4X_WkFauOJxZxuUdVbPQ

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Numbers are almost always great but the underlying complexity cannot be done in a spreadsheet I'm afraid.

as notes by Dez mortars have a great range and can be protected better. BUT then what about armor save? Or what army you'll face? Storm cast or bone splitters? Two different scenarios needing two different tools.

cannons have the best damage output and luckily some ko lists can utilize this trough abilities and by playing style. I think it's great to see how there is no single always go to option here. Also it isn't wrong to have two units of 10 thunderes ;)

 

perhaps ill use the decksweeper for my skirmish warband :)

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Also if we do numbers I'd like to see the damage distribution vs likelihood for each outcome (I guess for that various AS too) so we know the rough likelihood of, say, 8 thunderes with decksweepers doing x wounds 60% of the time. Optimized target priority :D

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It's funny because I don't really take Math Hammer into consideration when I play. I'm more interested in whether I have the tools for the scenario, what my opponent has brought (and predicting how they will use it). Then I'll give things some cursory math and probability (mostly done subconsciously). 

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15 minutes ago, Dez said:

It's funny because I don't really take Math Hammer into consideration when I play. I'm more interested in whether I have the tools for the scenario, what my opponent has brought (and predicting how they will use it). Then I'll give things some cursory math and probability (mostly done subconsciously). 

That is probably also the best way to go about it :)

 

we would need another layer of math to model the outcome of that so I guess we'll just have to play the game : )

.. or rather paint models so we (I) can play...

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skywardens what do people feel?

At first I thought why would you ever take them.... then I realized the can get both a volly gun and a drill cannon in a unit of 3 dudes.

Then that made me wonder why not take a 9 man unit to chuck out some dakka + heavy damage and a little close combat for 100 points per 3... now I think they will be a must in the team.

Mobile dakka!

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2 hours ago, Bimli said:

skywardens what do people feel?

At first I thought why would you ever take them.... then I realized the can get both a volly gun and a drill cannon in a unit of 3 dudes.

Then that made me wonder why not take a 9 man unit to chuck out some dakka + heavy damage and a little close combat for 100 points per 3... now I think they will be a must in the team.

Mobile dakka!

Currently working on my 6 Endrinriggers (4 saw, 2 grapnel) but next obln the list is a 6 man skywarden with 2 volley, 2 drillcannon.

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15 minutes ago, Tittliewinks22 said:

Currently working on my 6 Endrinriggers (4 saw, 2 grapnel) but next obln the list is a 6 man skywarden with 2 volley, 2 drillcannon.

for the endrinriggers why the grapnel not the skyhooks at least with the skyhook you do damage while the grapnel if hooking an enemy they need to have 10 wounds or a peice of terrain kinda situational imo.

Im working on a 9 man skywarden unit 3 volly 3 drill cannons I think this will destroy a good amount of units.

My 6 man unit of endrinriggers I'm thinking of adding x 2 drill cannons keep them with a decent close combat edge but still maintaining heavy hitting from afar. Those drill cannons are just to good  

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Grapnels for Board Control, which you will need if you are playing Scenarios. If you are just playing to table your enemy, then you might not bother. If having terrain to shoot is situational...that's a bad sign :) You need more terrain!

The Grapnel Launchers significantly boost the Endrinriggers ability to move. They get a 12" flying move, 24" from the Grapnel, then a potential 12" from charging. I can tell you from experience your opponents are going to be astounded the first time this happens, that's 48" of board control.

Age of Sigmar isn't all about the damage output, even if it is an important one. After getting to your objectives, you need to be able to claim and keep them :)

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Thanks I'd been wondering about the damage output, but you forgot the biggest variable: Range. All the other weapons have to get up close to do their damage, next turn they die. With Mortars, if you deploy on your board edge you are forcing your opponent to come to you. You, because you are smart, will have chaff units (Arkanaut Company) in the way so your Mortars will be hard to get to. You will also be taking out anything that can threaten your Mortars with Light Skyhooks and Endrinriggers.
Now this may change in the GHB 2...it may not. But as long as Mortars have a 36" range and stackable Khemist buffs they will rule.
 

You are correct is specific to damage output on average dice only. Range isn't a variable per say, more a play style choice. I find that thunderers only survive a turn or two when unprotected.


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I've taken [mention=3072]Sactownbri[/mention]'s idea a bit further and posted it on GDrive, if anyone wants to take a look at it.
I added options for unit size, ToHit and ToWound modifiers, re-rolls of ones or fails ToHit ToWound or Saves, as well as any number of Khemist buffs between 0 and 6.
As previously discussed, as soon as a single Khemist enters the equation the Cannon becomes by far the best option in terms of average number of wounds caused, whereas without any the Fumigator generally does more wounds.
Here's the link, if anyone wants to play around with the numbers (btw, sorry, can't get GSheets to display the series labels in the graphs) :
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lRVVJ47umoKy0FlD9zqa1Bi4X_WkFauOJxZxuUdVbPQ

The funny thing about statistics is that you can make them prove just about anything. Seems like the point I was trying to make was missed by most: play style matched with the appropriate weapon is a personal choice. Sure some weapons appear better than others and if you are a tournament gamer you'll look to min max, but realistically on average dice in friendly games there isn't much separation.


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17 minutes ago, Dez said:

Grapnels for Board Control, which you will need if you are playing Scenarios. If you are just playing to table your enemy, then you might not bother. If having terrain to shoot is situational...that's a bad sign :) You need more terrain!

The Grapnel Launchers significantly boost the Endrinriggers ability to move. They get a 12" flying move, 24" from the Grapnel, then a potential 12" from charging. I can tell you from experience your opponents are going to be astounded the first time this happens, that's 48" of board control.

Age of Sigmar isn't all about the damage output, even if it is an important one. After getting to your objectives, you need to be able to claim and keep them :)

I guess more situational when sticking on to enemies and terrain not in the sense of there not being any but more in the sense of it not being where you need it to be.

The Kharadrons are a very mobile army so they shouldn't have to much of a hard time getting to where they need especially if you go zilfin. I don't like that it hits on a 4+ and does not damage if it does. I guess I'm not sold until I play a few more games to see if that is a need.

I agree to claim and keep but for a mobile army like Kharadrons who do not have much in the way armor/ward saves I think your better off putting the hurt on so you can be alive to actually claim that point.

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7 minutes ago, Sactownbri said:


You are correct is specific to damage output on average dice only. Range isn't a variable per say, more a play style choice. I find that thunderers only survive a turn or two when unprotected.


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It's true, and there is potential for tactics there. An Ironclad dumps out it's 20 Thunderers. A Frigate pulls up, unloads 10 Arkanauts to bubble wrap the Thunderers. Both boats are kitty corner, making a direct charge at the Thunderers impossible. You could even put the Arkanauts behind them to cover the rear, using their 24" Light Skyhook to take out threats out of the Thunderers reach.

I just don't like the idea of just throwing a unit away with KO, there aren't many of them and they all have a job.

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1 minute ago, Bimli said:

I guess more situational when sticking on to enemies and terrain not in the sense of there not being any but more in the sense of it not being where you need it to be.

The Kharadrons are a very mobile army so they shouldn't have to much of a hard time getting to where they need especially if you go zilfin. I don't like that it hits on a 4+ and does not damage if it does. I guess I'm not sold until I play a few more games to see if that is a need.

I agree to claim and keep but for a mobile army like Kharadrons who do not have much in the way armor/ward saves I think your better off putting the hurt on so you can be alive tio actually claim that point.

Excellent points. I haven't been too impressed with Frigates though, in practice and on paper. I do need to try them more, as well as the Ironclad. I've found 9 Endrinriggers with 3 Grapnel Launchers can be a real threat and the utility...I love it. 

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I have 2 Frigates, an Ironclad and a Gunhauler myself. Those I'll play in fun games for sure! I'm not convinced I went overboard yet (he punned...)

I'd love to unlock the ships, hopefully we will soon.

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I feel the iron clad is great the frigate is good if your running zilfin other wise I agree not the best choice. It's fire power is a little lacking for my taste and 5+ save sigh...

I've only played 1k games so far and I find the strength is in their shooting and speed basically hit hard hit fast and try to stay away.

I like the characters the kharadron have but to be honest why would you take any of them over the khemists I've tried bit any time I want to add any character I say to my self I can use another khemists 

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The Admiral, his ability to give Skyfarers immune to Battle shock in a 12" radius is really good if you are playing a foot force.

i like the Ironclad on paper, it's pretty hefty and the transport ability is also good. I just think the Frigates are a little bit overpriced.

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The iron clad with the last word I think is a very viable choice. Has good range good health and you decide to charge it on a 4+ I'll do d3 mortal wounds and I can shoot 4 shots wounding on 3 and doing d3 wound it's pretty beast. I posted a 2k list that I feel is pretty competitive 

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22 hours ago, Sactownbri said:


You are correct is specific to damage output on average dice only. Range isn't a variable per say, more a play style choice. I find that thunderers only survive a turn or two when unprotected.


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First turn range is a significant variable. Damage 0 on first turn because out fo range isn't something you can ignore in your planning.

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Still a work in progress, but I thought I'd share the idea with you folks as I was really unhappy, like many of you, with the flight stands.  This is a flight stand from one of the 40k models, a Valkyrie or Razorwing etc., shaved down with a bench sander, files and scalpel.  You could easily repeat this, albiet slower, without the bench sander and just the files and blade.

This also raises the SkyVessel off the ground a touch more, but you can choose varying heights.

image1.JPG.b5c1218ae17738f9c2b17e903cc6e875.JPG

image2.JPG.494af58457cdffcb40a10d197f198e1e.JPG

image3.JPG.123720aeb0694f3cf9aeae1d49eee883.JPG

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On 5/26/2017 at 8:25 PM, Zahaladune said:

Still a work in progress, but I thought I'd share the idea with you folks as I was really unhappy, like many of you, with the flight stands.  This is a flight stand from one of the 40k models, a Valkyrie or Razorwing etc., shaved down with a bench sander, files and scalpel.  You could easily repeat this, albiet slower, without the bench sander and just the files and blade.

This also raises the SkyVessel off the ground a touch more, but you can choose varying heights.

image1.JPG.b5c1218ae17738f9c2b17e903cc6e875.JPG

image2.JPG.494af58457cdffcb40a10d197f198e1e.JPG

image3.JPG.123720aeb0694f3cf9aeae1d49eee883.JPG

that is a lot more effort than I put in I must say, but fitting for a giant ship like the ironclad!

 

for my frigate I used these guys: http://www.corseceng.com/ 

I got a 2" solid steel rod with a ****** in peg and a mounting stand. It is much easier to transport now that I can detach the ship and the stand, and it's fairly easy to put together and to cover up for painting with blue tak

only fix I had to do was use a power drill to completely hollow out the hull-slot for the peg, but it was manageable enough (pro tip, keep a very steady hand on it so it doesn't push all the way through!!)

don't know how well one of those would work for the iron clad, but it must be better than just the crappy GW one...

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On 5/29/2017 at 10:24 PM, Acid_Nine said:

...

for my frigate I used these guys: http://www.corseceng.com/ 

...

 

13 hours ago, Zahaladune said:

Those look like some sturdy pins.  I might look into that company for another project of mine, I like the idea of those swivel/pivot ball joint ones, thanks.

I use the exact same company, have used them for years and are very happy with the Omnistand/twist in peices.  I have not gone with the magnet variety, but the one that twist in are sturdy and look great.

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