SCE vs DOT woes

[Immersturm]

Hey folks. After almost a year of a break I return and played 4 games against different players. However, all were playing DoT. I am not a bad player by any means, but I got destroyed every single game without any hope of winning.

I tried different setups. Two iterations of Vanguard lists with Raptors and Hammerstrike, a Dracothian Knight based list with added mobility and a Vanguard Wing list. All of them lost around turn 3. Every time, the issue was that the heroes were bubble wrapped and no single SCE unit had enough damage to kill the Skyfires and Enlightened, whereas even Skyfires somehow did more damage in melee than most of my guys. I simply could not keep up the fight.

I realize that SCE went a step back with the new book and DoT are arguably broken, but in all my hobby time I never lost so decisively. I may be doing something terribly wrong, but I have yet to see it.

So yeah, how does one tackle DoT with SCE without compromising effectiveness against other armies. Mind you, I am talking competitive here.

Cheers

[Ruben]

Are skyfires that hard to shoot down with longstrike raptors? Maybe try aetherstrike force next time, with a lord veritant extra to unbind those mortal wound spells?

[Requizen]

Skyfire spam is considered one of the strongest armies in the game right now, so don't take it harshly. Also remember that if they're bubble wrapped, you have way more board control and presence. 

Judicators, Raptors, Knight-Venators, and Prosecutors should make relatively short work of a Tzaangor Shaman, plus any MW shooting you might have (Dragon, LC on foot, etc). Mirrorshield on your Heroes makes them effectively immune to Skyfires as well.

Utilizing Scions of the Storm seems good in this matchup. They get less damage on you since you're not on the table to hit before you can act, so your shooting units become pretty hard for them to kill before doing damage. 

I'm thinking Skyfires might get a change with TGH2, so also wait and see what happens in a couple months

[Immersturm]

@Ruben I have tried both versions of Raptors against them. They will kill a few, but then die. Remember, that a Skyfire has 4W whereas a Raptor has 2W. The only disadvantages they have is their 5+ save and weak to hit roll, both of which can be fixed by adding a single shaman. Personally, I am not convinced of Raptors. I am paying a lot for a unit that breaks really easily.

The issue with SCE ranged armies is that they simply suck, in my experience. They cost too much and while their damage is decent, they are too few and too easily removed. No single Vanguard unit has done anything in a competitive game for me. Besides, what's the point when the opponent can just use his fate dice to save the hardest shots, move 16" and shoot 24". I am starting to get a feeling that DOT are a hard-counter.

@Requizen And what will the TGH 2 change? Even if you bump the price, the most broken about them is the synergy and stats. You can price them at 200 instead of 160 and they would still be broken. As for the shooting, as I mentioned, they save the hardest shots with their fate dice and then shoot me off the board. SCE ranged lists have no staying power and even those that emphasize staying power stand little chance. I even tried save-stacking lists, the Skyfires still punch through and then I run out of steam, especially with the bubble wrapped LOC doing his massive MW spam.

As for Scions, that lost me the game, probably. Or at least made my demise a bit quicker. I failed 3/4 3+ rolls. Reserve rolls are garbage unless they are 2+ or have a re-roll. Trust me, in 40k I NEVER run anything that relies on a reserve rolls. If it isn't automatic, it is garbage. Same here. It might work one game, but utterly fail another. That is not good enough.

*sigh* I know I am salty, but after restarting the hobby I find out that my army has become a far cry from their last iteration while game balance is being ignored as always, this does not fill me with confidence.

[Turragor]

4 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

If it isn't automatic, it is garbage.

 

5 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

hard-counter

 

5 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

broken

 

5 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

broken

 

5 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

Reserve rolls are garbage

Wow!

It sounds like you had a tough time.

I might meet some at a tourney tomorrow. I am not sure how it will go. I'll probably use a lantern for the 6 rerolling (maybe 2!) or mirrorshields. I've got tempestors and a relictor too for -1 to hit.

May not work.

[Aezeal]

Skyfires are really strong, I remember people complaining about my bow hunters.. and I was just not seeing the real effect on the table.. Skyfires are way more dangerous.

[Immersturm]

@Turragor Yes, I am sorry. My current state is probably not the best to write constructive things with. I was rather annoyed after the game, because AOS was my way of escape the balance cesspool, that 40k is right now. But this is falling apart and thus my hobby loses meaning to me, which is sad.

As for stacking saves, I tried a setup with the re-roll 6+ lantern, staunch defender and shields all around. Didn't do anything. Well, it stopped a bit of shooting turn 1, but then the MW and frankly ludcaris amount of melee Skyfires and put out simply overwhelmed it. Aside from Dracoths, that unit alone does better than multiple SCE ones combined Oo

[chord]

I've not yet faced Skyfires (knocks on wood) but I'm sure people in my local are building them.

I've been a GW player only for a year but the craziness of their rules/wording/balance is strange. It could all be solved with technology.  The way Skyfires came out, its almost like they are trying to determine balance in their head instead of using data.

Agreed, SCE got hosed in the new battletome since they are stuck dropping outside of 9".  With the overlords, and the Skyfires if you fail that charge roll you are gonna get shoot to pieces.

[Turragor]

I have a feeling (only a gut feeling) that the aetherstrike and stardrake list might do well against these rascals

[Requizen]

I'm still riding the Skyborne Slayers train, which I think may be a solid pick against DoT. Protectors will give out that -1 hit cover and Judicators + LC on Foot can pop ranged things pretty easily. I think against this sort of army that shoots hard you need some sort of alpha strike in your life. 

The discussion in the Stormcast thread was also looking at Stardrakes. A LCoSD with Staunch Defender and a Lord Castellant has a 1+/RR1s and a Mirrorshield negates Skyfires super hard. In fact, I think that setup might be insanely hard for a DoT player to fight against, since you can Meteor everywhere on the table and move fast enough to get into combat with things. 

[Turragor]

Just now, chord said:

Agreed, SCE got hosed in the new battletome

I dunno that that can be said to be the case. It all sounds a bit knee-jerky to me.

[Turragor]

@Requizen I am starting to wish I took my stardrake to this tournament I'm hitting tomorrow. Transport accidents be damned!

[chord]

Just now, Turragor said:

I dunno that that can be said to be the case. It all sounds a bit knee-jerky to me.

Possibly.  But with LOS pretty much broken (anyone can see anything almost), and the heavy shooting armies coming out.  The SCE with the slow moves and always outside of 9" seems like a detriment.  Had it been 6" out giving you a 50/50 shot at a charge I think that would have been more fair.

[Immersturm]

3 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I'm still riding the Skyborne Slayers train, which I think may be a solid pick against DoT. Protectors will give out that -1 hit cover and Judicators + LC on Foot can pop ranged things pretty easily. I think against this sort of army that shoots hard you need some sort of alpha strike in your life. 

The discussion in the Stormcast thread was also looking at Stardrakes. A LCoSD with Staunch Defender and a Lord Castellant has a 1+/RR1s and a Mirrorshield negates Skyfires super hard. In fact, I think that setup might be insanely hard for a DoT player to fight against, since you can Meteor everywhere on the table and move fast enough to get into combat with things. 

But doesn't that hamper your match-up against other factions? Granted, I never used a Stardrake extensively, but it never appeared as good to me as a Zombie Dragon might. Any experience you could share regarding it?

[Requizen]

Just now, chord said:

Possibly.  But with LOS pretty much broken (anyone can see anything almost), and the heavy shooting armies coming out.  The SCE with the slow moves and always outside of 9" seems like a detriment.  Had it been 6" out giving you a 50/50 shot at a charge I think that would have been more fair.

Which is why I think the Vexillor is still pretty worthwhile. 9" with a reroll is 51%, making even your regular Scion deployment pretty decent. 

[Turragor]

Just now, chord said:

Possibly.  But with LOS pretty much broken (anyone can see anything almost), and the heavy shooting armies coming out.  The SCE with the slow moves and always outside of 9" seems like a detriment.  Had it been 6" out giving you a 50/50 shot at a charge I think that would have been more fair.

To prevent most stormcast lists becoming a variation of a gunline you might be right.

[Requizen]

Just now, Immersturm said:

But doesn't that hamper your match-up against other factions? Granted, I never used a Stardrake extensively, but it never appeared as good to me as a Zombie Dragon might. Any experience you could share regarding it?

I've not used it myself (gonna be buying one here in a month or so) but it's actually been placing well. Just came in third at GW AoS Heat 2, which is a pretty big deal. 

Mirrorshield LCoSD with any sort of armor boost (Castellant or Staunch Defender) is really difficult to kill for anything that doesn't do auto-hit MWs, so it really only suffers against mass spells, Thundertusks, or Skyre. 

[chord]

2 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Which is why I think the Vexillor is still pretty worthwhile. 9" with a reroll is 51%, making even your regular Scion deployment pretty decent. 

good point

[Soulsmith]

Take those big crossbow fellows, enforce true line sight, pop the shamans?

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[chord]

3 minutes ago, Turragor said:

To prevent most stormcast lists becoming a variation of a gunline you might be right.

True.

I get why they did it since most tournament SCE lists were just alpha strike drop right around you.  But I feel like 9" went too far the other way.

[Immersturm]

3 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Which is why I think the Vexillor is still pretty worthwhile. 9" with a reroll is 51%, making even your regular Scion deployment pretty decent. 

That is 140pts for a teleport or a bit of damage, a mediocre body and the re-roll charge bubble. I suppose it is solid when matched up with Hammerstrike as backup move for the Retributors or when running Stardrake and/or Dracoth lists. Though I suppose the run+charge of the Heraldor might not be bad either then. Still, both are very expensive. Are they worth it in lists with such expensive models like Dracoths? And even worse, their cost makes it hard to use battalions.

[Turragor]

5 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

Though I suppose the run+charge of the Heraldor might not be bad either then.

We must do as Warhammer TV Rob advises. 6 Heraldors.

Tootstrike SCE new way forward.

[Requizen]

Heraldors are still super sleeper imba. With how much people tend to hug terrain, and as people start using more and more terrain on boards, the toot toot is going to cause serious damage. Especially a shooty unit like Skyfires that want to sit back in cover.

[AverageBoss]

DoT deal out alot of mortal wounds, but they are just as bad as SCE at taking them. Every 3 Skyfires averages 4 damage (mortal and normal) a turn, when backed by a Shaman from range, ignoring that armor exists (since that's a variable factor). Killing the Shaman drastically lowers their effectiveness. They also suffer from very low bravery.

[ledha]

two things to know

1) stay 18" away from his heroes WHATEVER HAPPEN. Quite easy to do.

2) neutralize skyfire

How ? With ease. Skyfire need ONE thing to be effective : a tzaangor shaman, who give them a sweet +1 to hit, making them much more dangerous. So, you need to kill the tzaangor shaman, and find a way to make the skyfire useless. And you know what ? Stormcast are VERY GOOD for that.

A knight vexxilor with the luckstone (choosing the roll of a hit, wound, save, damage roll) can, turn one, make 3 mortal wound to the caster of your choice and between 1-3 to every unit between 2-12" away. Against a fragile army with no heal, lot of MSU, and often "packed", it can make lot of damage. It's the first step. Now, how can you kill it for sure ?

Celestant Prime. Make him arrive turn 1, far away and in cover if you can (it's not a monster) and use this sweet comet on the ennemy caster (no line of sight or range required), and choose the damage roll. 3 other automatic wound. Boom, one shot. Plus damage around. And more each turn.

This little combo cost 500 pts, and his stupidly effective for sniping things away.

Now, the Skyfire ? What make them good are the 6 to hit making mortal wound.

What the stormcast have ? Lantern of the tempest, forcing the ennemy to reroll 6 OR MORE to hit with ranged attack against the character using it and others 6" around him. No mortal wound.

Except if they kill him. So, use staunch defender. +1 to save roll for the general and everyone around him.

Do you know what skyfire do against 2+/3+ opponent while forcing 6 or more to hit ? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And we have other toys. You can hide all those things behind protectors, debuff them with tempestors, and so on.

A thunderhead brotherhood is very good against tzeentch. 3+ save judicator with reroll 1 to hit AND wound and this 24 range will snipe those casters easy. If the caster is out of range of you, he can't sling spell neither. Fair trade. 

Another good thing : tzeenth rely on his hero phase, and on the double turn. Best bet is to start second and never take initative. You'll be able to know how the game will going in the advance. No double turn = safe game.

 

TL:DR: keep your distance with the ennemy character and snipe them, and use lantern of the tempest to make the skyfire useless. Play and win the ranged game