Two Scions of the storm questions

[Mrmattywoodz]

I have two questions about Scions of the storm.

 

#1 if I wish to place something in the Celestial realm and bring it in using the Scions of the storm rule, do I have to use one of my "set up drops" to place a unit there, or can I just say "the rest of the units are in the celestial realm," allowing me to dictate who takes the first turn.

 

#2 does a unit that arrives by the scion of the storm rule count as moving that turn, mainly asking to see if crossbows would get extra attacks.

 

Thanks in advance! Sorry if the questions seem dumb but there has been confusion at our FLGS

[Turragor]

1. It's a setup so you have to deploy in the celestial realm as you would on the board - so a battalion can go up there direct, individual units have to be deployed individually.

Con - you are less likely (unless list is built with few drops) to dictate first turn choice.

Pros - you can give the opponent nothing to work with for quite some time. You could begin with 2 x libs, 1 x heraldor, 1 x Jud unit - 4 drops - in the celestial realm by which time your opponent might be half way through their army on the board.

2. The trait says: "this is their move for that movement phase".

[Lord Aquillor]

Turragor hit the nail on the head.  That is how I have been playing it and how the BT reads.

I ran into an interesting predicament the other day.  Maybe I ran it incorrectly.  I had a Hammerstrike Warscroll Battalion setup and deployed my entire force in the celestial realm, including the Prosecutors set to deliver the Hammerstrike.  I assumed that the scion ability forced me to roll for the Paladins each turn as they were setup in the celestial realm.  My Prosecutors rolled a 1 and my Paladins rolled a 3 and thus I had to deploy them and missed out on the whole benefit of the Hammerstrike force.  

Was I playing this correctly?

[Goddin]

14 minutes ago, Lord Aquillor said:

d.  That is how I have been playing it and how the BT reads.

I ran into an interesting predicament the other day.  Maybe I ran it incorrectly.  I had a Hammerstrike Warscroll Battalion setup and deployed my entire force in the celestial realm, including the Prosecutors set to deliver the Hammerstrike.  I assumed that the scion ability forced me to roll for the Paladins each turn as they were setup in the celestial re

I don't believe so.  You should have declared "I'm setting up my Hammerstrike Force" - one drop.  Then state.  I'm setting up the paladins pursuant to the rules of the Hammerstrike Force, and I'm setting up my prosecutors pursuant to the Scions of the Storm Ability.

 

Then you shouldn't be rolling for the paladin drops that game, just the prosecutors.

[Lord Aquillor]

26 minutes ago, Goddin said:

I don't believe so.  You should have declared "I'm setting up my Hammerstrike Force" - one drop.  Then state.  I'm setting up the paladins pursuant to the rules of the Hammerstrike Force, and I'm setting up my prosecutors pursuant to the Scions of the Storm Ability.

 

Then you shouldn't be rolling for the paladin drops that game, just the prosecutors.

The issue is that the Hammerstrike says set them up in the Celestial Realm. Scions of the Storm says set them up in the celestial realms and roll for them each turn.  One could argue either way that you must roll for each unit in the Celestial Realm per the Scions of the Storm ability.  But who knows.  RAW and RAI seem to both make a strong argument either way and I fear an FAQ is necessary.  

That being said.  If you must roll for the Paladins every turn due to Scions, I think this battalion is garbage. 

[Turragor]

5 hours ago, Lord Aquillor said:

The issue is that the Hammerstrike says set them up in the Celestial Realm. Scions of the Storm says set them up in the celestial realms and roll for them each turn.  One could argue either way that you must roll for each unit in the Celestial Realm per the Scions of the Storm ability.  But who knows.  RAW and RAI seem to both make a strong argument either way and I fear an FAQ is necessary.  

That being said.  If you must roll for the Paladins every turn due to Scions, I think this battalion is garbage. 

There's the celestial realm and then the celestial realm!

In one you can take a taxi and are guaranteed down when you need to be. In the other you have to wait on the bus which may or may not come at all.

Then there is also 'in pursuit', the 'high heavens' (I think?) and maybe a few other places where Sigmar keeps his stuff.

For Hammerstrike the paladins are 100% in the taxi accessible one. The Prosecutors can be deployed in the bus accessible one. You only roll for the prosecutors then.

 

[Lord Aquillor]

34 minutes ago, Turragor said:

There's the celestial realm and then the celestial realm!

In one you can take a taxi and are guaranteed down when you need to be. In the other you have to wait on the bus which may or may not come at all.

Then there is also 'in pursuit', the 'high heavens' (I think?) and maybe a few other places where Sigmar keeps his stuff.

For Hammerstrike the paladins are 100% in the taxi accessible one. The Prosecutors can be deployed in the bus accessible one. You only roll for the prosecutors then.

 

Awesome.  Would have been cool for them to mix up the names or just be more consistent.  It gets a bit wonky when you have all these alt deployments.  I feel like my opponents are always confused about how all I can deploy.  I tend to tell my opponent at the beginning of the game so they don't lose to simply not knowing what I can do.  I usually just say that my guys can pop up anywhere outside of 9" (unless running hammerstrike), save the hunters and aquilor who come in from the table edge. This tends to suffice. 

[Turragor]

3 minutes ago, Lord Aquillor said:

Awesome.  Would have been cool for them to mix up the names or just be more consistent.  It gets a bit wonky when you have all these alt deployments.  I feel like my opponents are always confused about how all I can deploy.  I tend to tell my opponent at the beginning of the game so they don't lose to simply not knowing what I can do.  I usually just say that my guys can pop up anywhere outside of 9" (unless running hammerstrike), save the hunters and aquilor who come in from the table edge. This tends to suffice. 

Hmm I think the best way to avoid confusion is to ignore my idea that there are 2x celestial realms. There only needs to be one. There is more than one way to deploy from it though - hammerstrike paladins have one way, scions is our allegiance method.

So in that sense it's more clear, the paladins hammerstrike down. The prosecutors scions of the storm down.

Maybe easier?

[AdamJ]

On 29/03/2017 at 3:47 PM, Lord Aquillor said:

The issue is that the Hammerstrike says set them up in the Celestial Realm. Scions of the Storm says set them up in the celestial realms and roll for them each turn.  One could argue either way that you must roll for each unit in the Celestial Realm per the Scions of the Storm ability.  But who knows.  RAW and RAI seem to both make a strong argument either way and I fear an FAQ is necessary.  

That being said.  If you must roll for the Paladins every turn due to Scions, I think this battalion is garbage. 

I was thinking about this the other day - in that I'd be forced to roll for the Paladins. However on rereading Scions of the Storm I realised it states you roll for each unit set up in the celestial realm via Scions of the Storm. I think the wording is "...roll a dice for each of these units" as opposed to roll for anything in the celestial realm.

 

Therefore the forced roll doesn't apply to the Paladins as they were set up in the celestial realm via Hammerstrike, not via Scions of the Storm. You would just need to tell you opponent that you are placing the Paladins in the celestial realm via Hammerstrike and not Scions.

[BURF1]

On 3/30/2017 at 7:08 PM, AdamJ said:

I was thinking about this the other day - in that I'd be forced to roll for the Paladins. However on rereading Scions of the Storm I realised it states you roll for each unit set up in the celestial realm via Scions of the Storm. I think the wording is "...roll a dice for each of these units" as opposed to roll for anything in the celestial realm.

 

Therefore the forced roll doesn't apply to the Paladins as they were set up in the celestial realm via Hammerstrike, not via Scions of the Storm. You would just need to tell you opponent that you are placing the Paladins in the celestial realm via Hammerstrike and not Scions.

Yeah, DO NOT get caught thinking about it as celestial realm vs celestial realm, the celestial realm is just the fluff BS that GW throws in to make it sound fantasy-y, it doesn't really mean anything. The things that matter are Scions of the Storm vs Hammerstrike force