Jump to content

Advice for battleline units?


Magister

Recommended Posts

I'm thinking of running a mixed death army. I've read in a few places that it's best not to mix ghouls/skeletons/zombies and just go all of one. Is this true? I can understand ghouls since FEC kind of work differently, but skeletons and zombies seemed pretty compatable.

Also, does the zombie horde work? They are just so cheap to field, I've seen people say just go with medium units then merge as needed. If I do merge two units, does the new unit count the models in the unit at the start of battle or the time of merging for purposes of free replacements up to max size in matched play? Do you like the corpse cart?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FEC is generally only good with ~90% FEC army. No need to mix them in. They're all about synergy.

Until Death gets some kind of new release, Mixed Death has a few different strategies.

Horde Skeletons relies on multiple units of 30-40 Skeleton Warriors to gain lots and lots of attacks. Other Deathrattle has synergy and potential batallion.

Horde Zombies isn't really a thing very often. Slow and takes forever to play. They don't hit hard. They have no armor save.

Elite/Monster centric with specific battleline / cavalry / chaff units is the most common. Using hard hitting elite units, and other units as either regenerating chaff, rend ignoring chaff, or fast objective gathering chaff.

If you have 3 x 10 zombie units, you can choose to merge, two or 3 of them together if they're near each other. Their Banner regeneration is capped at 20 or 30 respectively. Not sure when you regenerate. I would think if even one of the 3 groups has used regenerate, then the other two hold theirs, the entire unit loses it for the turn after they merge, because one banner has already activated, and now they're all combined. TL;DR Regen either in 3 10's, 20 + 10, or 30.

Doesn't really matter picking skeletons vs Zombies. Zombies really never do much damage. They are simply there to take up time and objectives, unless you have like 25+ alive. Even then they're unthreatening.

Skeletons in 10's can potentially have a 5+ armor save and do more damage on average (w/ swords). As Skeletons get in to 20, 30, 40 + they become very threatening. Zombies technically do, but they don't get extra attacks, and they still have a 1" range, so only 2 ranks worth can fight, unlike spear skeletons which fight in 3 ranks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 skeletons is pretty much a throwaway unit — they can grab objectives and get in the enemy's way for a turn, but don't expect them to achieve much else. Personally I'd take 10 zombies to do the same for less, but some people like that 10 skeletons can occasionally kill something, which zombies don't have.

20 skeletons is the worst of both worlds — too small to be a threat, too big to be expendable.

30 skeletons is a glass hammer — potentially hard hitting, but tricky to use. Spears are a must.

40 skeletons is a decent in unit. Spears a must. Can be buffed well.

60 zombies cost about the same as 40 skeletons, but don't hit anywhere near as hard, no matter what buffs you give them. They may be a slightly better tarpit, but even that's debatable. The advantage is that you can take them as 3 units of 20, filling your battleline requirements. One unit of 60 zombies will hit harder than 4 units of 10 skeletons.

Zombies are also the cheapest option to fill your minimum battleline, and easier to summon. Summoning 10 then merging them into an existing unit has uses, but they're kinda situational.

Personally I would count the number of models actually on the table when you merge as the new unit's starting strength, not the combined starting strengths of the “parent” units. It's a little open to interpretation.

Corpse carts are decent in my opinion, especially if you are running zombies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Ghouls are capable only if FEC oriented cause it's the only way to substiain them. And even if you thing about the "gohul atrol" at the end it requires a bit of investments too.

 

I ussually play both skellies and zombies and they are quite solid. The skellies I like to play in 30 strong spearmans. Or they meet quite a combination of opponents or a specialized anti mass unit. Otherway even a big monster risks to die under their scratches.

Zombies are perfect to stall. Their main ability is versatiltiy cuase you can always assess the requirements and full fill adding zombies on zombies thanks to the merging ability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While 10 skeletons is pretty much a garbage unit, I think they are much better then 10 zombies for only 20 more points (60 Z vs 80 S).

Skeletons getting a 5+ vs. non rend, can hold other enemy chaff, while still shrugging off some wounds, maybe more if near a hero. Plus regeneration.

You can think by turn 5 of that, your 10 sword skeletons will have killed or at least outnumber 10 enemy clanrats, to the point where you now control the distant objective, because 7 skeletons > 4 clanrats etc...

 

I would also maybe want to emphasize, now is potentially not a great time to over invest in battleline units. That's my plan at least.

Death is desperately looking for rules & model releases, and there's a decent chance we'll see new zombies that don't look quite as goofy, possible Skeleton re-hash, and maybe even a new battleline unit alltogether... Consider that before you paint up 80 skeletons or 60 zombies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone. Back to something someone mentioned, a ghoul patrol without other FEC buffs wouldn't work well? I thought the formation was mostly self-supporting and good operating far away from the rest of an army.

Also, do you consider it unsporting to just take minimum units of zombies as a battleline tax and save the points for other things?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Options:

Skeleton Warriors: advice mentioned so far is good.  10 are a throwaway unit, but can still be worthwhile to fill battleline or formation requirements.  units of 10 are best with hand weapons, but weak enough that it doesn't really matter.  Units of 30+ (preferably 40+) are an effective offensive block and a solid target for buffs like mummy or wight command abilities, necromancer or lich spells, etc.

Note that the tomb king version of skeleton warriors are matched play legal, cost the same points, and have better shields.  Buy or convert tomb king or tower shields to run your skittles as the tomb king version if you can.

 

Zombies:  again, the advice so far is good.  They are the cheapest way to fill battleline requirements, and small units can merge up into one big one.  30 skeletons is better than 40 zombies for the same points, and 3 units of ten skeletons is better than four units of 10 zombies for the same points, BUT one unit of fourty zombies is better than three units of 10 skeletons, while still filling up 4 separate battleline slots due to your ability to deploy them as four units of 10 then merge them during your first command phase. 

 

Ghouls:  As mentioned, they work best in FEC armies, but due to their better number of attacks, units of 10 ghouls can be used as throwaway battleline units like skeletons, just slightly more expensive for their slightly better built in offense.  No built in recursion, but honestly you're probably not going to get any recursion out of a unit of 10 skeletons, either, they'll just skip straight to dead.  This use for ghouls is somewhat limited due to the superior trick from zombies, but if you only need a single extra battle line unit and not three or four, then 10 ghouls might be a better way to fill it.  At least, if you don't have access to legacy options.

 

Legacy Options: tomb kings battleline units that might be tricky to acquire or convert, but may be worth it:

Skeleton Horsemen: weak, but fast, a decent option to fill a spare battle line slot if you want something speedy that can go after unclaimed objectives.

Skeleton Chariots: faster than infantry, slower than horsemen, very good wound scores and recursion for their points cost, and can hit somewhat respectably on the charge, against poorly armored opponents anyway.  A good option to have access to.

 

In terms of a mixed death army, the question is how dependent the units are on formations and subfaction exclusive buffs, and whether thsoe buffs affect multiple units.

If you make extensive use of ghouls, you'll want courtiers, but courtiers want more units of ghouls around, so you have more units to spread their healing between.  Skeletons on the other hand are highly dependent on buffs, but those buffs are either single target or non-exclusive or both, so fielding one unit of skeletons doesn't really compel you to field any more units of the same, unless you're running settra, in which case your units should be all deathrattle all the time apart from some wizards and some mummy heroes.

 

So.... yeah, all in all you should feel free to mix and match battle line as you like, with the exception of ghouls which mostly play with each other, and settra who only likes skeletons and skeleton chariots in his battle line.  For instance, I regularly run one big skeleton block, with multiple small zombie units to fill in remaining battle line slots on the cheap, and that tends to work pretty well for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Sception said:

Options:

Note that the tomb king version of skeleton warriors are matched play legal, cost the same points, and have better shields.  Buy or convert tomb king or tower shields to run your skittles as the tomb king version if you can.

Debatable. I've been running Tomb Shields a while now, but I've often felt Crypt Shields would be better. Both have pros and cons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose it's debatable, but ime rend -1 is pretty common.  I prefer the tomb shields, where the application of their bonus is dependent on how you use them, not what your opponent brings.  It's not a big difference either way, not something anyone should get worked up over or mess with already assembled models to chase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks all, great info.

I had a final question since I'm still learning the rules. Say I have a unit of skeletons with enough bonus numbers for three attacks. If I cast Vanhel's Danse Macabre on it, does it simply get one additional swing for a total of 4, or does the bonus still apply for 6 attacks total?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With Vanhel's Danse it's a potential 6 attacks per model, but not all at the same time.

You activate the unit as usual, make 3 attacks each. Then your opponent activates a unit and attacks. Then you activate a unit, but this can be the same unit, activated a second time making another 3 attacks each. Or it could be a different unit, and you could come back to the Vanhel's unit later — either way, the point is you get to pick that unit to attack with twice in the same turn, instead of only once.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, you basically get to activate them two separate times in combat as though they were two separate units instead of one.  Just be aware that your opponent will get at least one activation before your second swing, which may cause enough casualties for them to lose some of their attacks.  Or kill them off altogether, preventing the second swing from ever happening, if they're stuck in with something particularly hideous.

Other buffs stack as well.  If your general is a wight king and uses his command ability on them, and they have 30+ models, then they make four attacks each, for potentially 8 attacks in a a single combat phase with vanhels.  If you have a liche priest who has used its spell on them as well, then each of those 8 attacks could potentially provoke yet another attack if you roll a six to hit.  40 skittles attacking twice with buffs from wight king, liche priest, and necromancer average just under 376 attacks, provided you can get them all in range to swing and don't lose any between your first and second swings - admittedly somewhat unlikely circumstances. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

True, with the lich priest's buff up, the tomb king is marginally better.  But then again, you don't always get the spell off, and if you don't then the wight king's buff matters more.  WKwBA is also tougher against attacks with rend, though the tomb king can be shielded by a herald.  A lot of back and forth.  Many good leader options for deathrattle-leaning death armies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sception only if you're down to 29 skeletons or fewer — 3 attacks on 3+ to hit averages the same as 4 attacks on a 4+. The TK will do slightly better thanks to the unit champion (who will have 4 attacks on 3+ instead of 5 on 4+), and give +1 to charge rolls.

Vs attacks with rend, it depends how many wounds you're taking at once (and what the rend is, and whether to you're in cover. Half wounds Vs re-rolls is tricky, especially since the TK has an extra wound to start with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WKwBA halves incoming wounds.  Without rend/mortal wounds, the TK's armor re-roll (assuming sword & board) achieves about the same thing plus it has an extra wound, but once rend starts chipping away at the save, or mortal wounds start ignoring it altogether, the wight king's wound halving comes out ahead.

Course, the Tomb King is also cheaper, and can shift wounds off to a herald (still kinda sad about the herald's errata, but w/e).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, but it depends how many wounds you're taking at a time, because the halved wounds are rounded up — so if you're only taking one wound at a time, it does nothing. Against 3 wounds, it's only negating one-third, etc. If you can stick him in cover, that takes things even further in the TK's favour.

Overall, though, I'd agree that the WKwBA is tougher against high-rend and mortal wounds, but there's not much in it. Against attacks with rend -1, I'd say the TK comes out better — it will take at most 9 wounds (after saves) to down a WKwBA, possibly less. Against a TK with an additional chance to save on a 5+ and 6 wounds, it's also an average of 9 wounds to take him down.

There's also the question of the Black Axe vs The Tomb King's Curse.

And +1 to hit is more reliable than +1 attack (just in terms of how the possible outcomes are distributed). It's a better counter to any -1 to hit penalties, but +1 attack would be a better counter to -1 attack abilities.

Anything we've missed? Once buffs Deathrattle, the other Skeletons, but that's a distinction without a difference so far as I know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arkhan is a non-deathrattle skeleton.  Don't think there are any others.  Still, there's something to be said for buffing up arkhan with a tomb king's command ability and the signature spells of both a necromancer and a liche priest, and going to town with a monster that's considerably more competent in melee than one might normally expect of 'the casty mortarch'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...