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CarlH

Older models

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Hi Chaps,

I have a niggling question which I am sure someone on here will be able to answer. I have a lot of "man love" for the old Bretonnian range (possibly 5th edition?) which I used for historical warhammer medieval troops a long long time ago.

My question is what happens to the molds when GW (or any firm I suppose) discontinue a line?

I sincerely hope that they are put into storage somewhere maybe to make an appearance a few decades later in retro editions! I suspect not...

The wearing out of molds is I am told almost impossible? So does anyone know of a vault containing highly desired older GW molds?

Thanks in advance for any pointers as too what happens to them...if they are destroyed just don't tell me. 

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No idea, but new stuff is designed on computer. Not impossible that they have converted old stuff to digital and placed on hard drive to resurrect in future. Moulds are expensive but where we're going, we don't need moulds (possibility of print to order in future on retro - who knows tech in 5 years).

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Late last year GW had an on demand service, so i imagine moulds are kept in storage after finishing their run 

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Depends entirely on the mold in question.  Plastic molds (i.e. the ones made out of steel) are really expensive and likely placed into storage somewhere.  

Molds for white metal are made from vulcanised rubber and only have a finite life expectancy, after which a new one is made using a set of master models (the original is cast up to make a set of masters), so in theory if the molds are ditched then a new one could be made from the master.

No idea on finecast :D

But all molds can and do wear.  The steel ones used for plastic will take many casts to deteriorate, but you can see this on some of the really old kits such as the Space Marine Rhino, Chaos Space Marines and Bloodletters.  Anything that has been done in the past three or four years is most likely stored as a CAD file and GW have the facility to cut new molds on site from the CAD drawing, but anything older than that would need to be either scanned or re-sculpted which takes significantly longer to do.  Space Marine tactical's got this treatment a few years back.

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13 hours ago, Rob P said:

Moulds are expensive but where we're going, we don't need moulds (possibility of print to order in future on retro - who knows tech in 5 years).

Mm, not likely. I was hearing this five years ago and 3DP models still takes hours to print, whereas a PIM process can cycle a sprue every ten seconds.

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Quoting @Double Misfire:

Foundry Minatures still sell reproductions of earlier medieval GW stuff on their website, but they're much smaller than the above models:

http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/medieval/early-medieval-barons-wars/

Beyond that check ebay. I wouldn't imagine them to come cheap though!

I have bought a few models from Foundry Miniatures and am very happy with their products and customer service.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Mm, not likely. I was hearing this five years ago and 3DP models still takes hours to print, whereas a PIM process can cycle a sprue every ten seconds.

Fair point. Suppose it depends on whether it would be print on demand and, even then, how much people are prepared to throw at GW for old sculpts.

 

4 minutes ago, Veillotron said:

Quoting @Double Misfire:

Foundry Minatures still sell reproductions of earlier medieval GW stuff on their website, but they're much smaller than the above models:

http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/medieval/early-medieval-barons-wars/

Beyond that check ebay. I wouldn't imagine them to come cheap though!

I have bought a few models from Foundry Miniatures and am very happy with their products and customer service.

 

 

Funnily enough, the relatively generic 'Knights of the Realm' style of the Brets may be the reason they're not on GW's radar for update (aka IP protection reasons).

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4 minutes ago, Rob P said:

Funnily enough, the relatively generic 'Knights of the Realm' style of the Brets may be the reason they're not on GW's radar for update (aka IP protection reasons).

You might be right. I inquired why the Bretonnian line had been dropped, and the feedback I got was because of 1) it wasn't selling and 2) IP issues.

Having said that, for the avoidance of doubt, Foundry actually acquired the Citadel molds from GW, so these are not copies, but the actual old school models I used to paint when I was a kid (http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/about/)

 

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Thanks for the input Chaps....Foundry will be a good place to start for my Bretonnians! I have never read anywhere what actually happens to a mold so storage and possibly re issue may occur one day? I live in hope of 5th edition Bretonnians but stand in models will be OK as I intend to play solo.

 

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So, the moulds are indeed probably stored, or at the very least the masters are.  the master pattern will be the thing that the mould is taken from and will include pour inlets and air evacuation channels.

Of old, the moulds were vulcanised rubber which were centrifugally cast - so the metal is pumped in from the centre and the spinning action forces it to the outer part and evacuates air at the same time. 

Finecast was just a way of extending the service life of these moulds and the product line thereof.

Moulds wear out, sharp edges become raggedy or worn out and in some cases the part is not mould friendly and destroys the mould after only a few duty cycles - quite often these models are retired early.  Forgeworld's chaos war mammoth and Jes Goodwin's C23 Mutant Ogre from back in  '86 were two such models,  and in the case of the mammoth, that tooling (moulds to the layman) cost was borne out in the cost of the thing.

Plastic moulds are different and as Coffeegrunt has said, they're designed for a fast output.  A cheap one, will cost around twenty to fifty grand per sprue (50,000 duty cycles service life) , and expensive ones much much more.  A simple injection mould tool can be machined out on a mill, but I reckon that GW's stuff with their current level of detail are probably spark eroded in parts as well before plating.

problem with 3d printing currently is that it still hasn't gone sub fifty micron printing thickness which means that you will still see banding on the model - it's ok for things like vehicles and anything mainly flat-ish but complex curvatures and form detail and you'll be able to see the layering.

 

See, every day's a school day :)

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10 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

problem with 3d printing currently is that it still hasn't gone sub fifty micron printing thickness which means that you will still see banding on the model - it's ok for things like vehicles and anything mainly flat-ish but complex curvatures and form detail and you'll be able to see the layering.

One thing that I discovered last year when speaking to Aly Morrison, is that GW now have the facilities for CNC cutting their own molds on site.  Wouldn't surprise me to find they've more advanced technology under their belt too - would love to have a guided tour round their factory.  Forge World still use 3d prints to create the masters for the molds they use.

10 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

See, every day's a school day :)

Never fails to amaze me how much knowledge the community has

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7 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

One thing that I discovered last year when speaking to Aly Morrison, is that GW now have the facilities for CNC cutting their own molds on site.  Wouldn't surprise me to find they've more advanced technology under their belt too - would love to have a guided tour round their factory.  Forge World still use 3d prints to create the masters for the molds they use.

Now that I didn't know!

And that kit required for that is serious money to achieve that level of detail.

Colour me impressed with a +5 sword of impressednessness. :)

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What happened to on demand? I just realised I have never heard anything of it since the (much needed) Diazette release.

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13 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

What happened to on demand? I just realised I have never heard anything of it since the (much needed) Diazette release.

Not sure.  As I understand it, it's the same people who deal with this that also does the production of the normal models so it could simply be they've had too much work on.  From what I've seen the daemonette release was really popular, so I reckon they'll do some more - would be lovely to see some of the old Tomb King bits soon, to tie in with the unofficial Battletome ;)

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I always wondered if 3D printing needed a second stage, a layering technique to cover and smooth the exterior surface that uses something akin to liquid greenstuff or powercoating techniques to finish off the surface of the model.

Admitedly you'd need to alter your 3D model so that it was smaller than you'd want the end product, but it certainly seems possible.

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