Skyfires, OMG

[CaptKeiv]

I've been playing vs a friend who plays a group of 9 skyfires with a shaman.

They move 16, shoot 24. They do D3 mortal wounds on 5+hit (shaman). (destiny dice can be used). They have 36 wounds.

If I can manage to kill like 6-7, he will just fold reality them and put back D6 models.

What is the actual trick to kill them?

[redbeardboss]

they have terrible bravery and you could kill the wizard with the fold spell first

[ledha]

kill the wizard first. Now, they need 6+ to make mortal wound. If you have another -1 to hit ability or forcing to reroll 6 to hit, they won't do anything relevant for their cost

it's still a very nasty and powerful combo (skyfire are undercosted actually) so prepare to cry aniway

[Arkiham]

Wouldn't have said they were under costed.

5+ save, 1 shot, low bravery, require an additional 120 point unit to be an actual threat.

 

[Lucio]

6 hours ago, CaptKeiv said:

I've been playing vs a friend who plays a group of 9 skyfires with a shaman.

 

Might be worth reconsidering how you define a "friend" because that's just horrid!

In terms of dealing with the combo, as with any character buffed combo, kill the character first. Use Wizards, Mortal wounds, ranged weapons, flying characters of your own, anything and everything you can to take him down.

Most characters of this type can't survive a half-decent focused attack and every army should have an "assassin" in it, tasked with taking out characters this frustrating.

[Tokyo Nift]

Shaman should definitely have psychoconductive bond on the skyfires. Then how do you kill him?

[Requizen]

Every one of those units is a 5+ save only, chewing through that should be no problem. And the Skyfires are only Bravery 6, and making multi wound models run is a big deal.

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[daedalus81]

For a more pointed discussion on how to fight them we need to know what army you use.

[Lord Cedric]

Well... you know what they say. If you can't beat 'em...... ;-)

- Cedric

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[Lord Veshnakar]

As others have said, just take out the Shaman. If you are focusing on the Skyfires first you are doing it wrong IMHO.  Once the shaman is gone you are looking at 24 wounds with a 5+ save clocking with a bravery of 6 clocking in at 320 points. If you lock them in combat they are pretty much toast. It's not like Kurnoth Hunters where they have a 4+ re-rolling save and 5 wounds. 
 

[ledha]

10 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Wouldn't have said they were under costed.

5+ save, 1 shot, low bravery, require an additional 120 point unit to be an actual threat.

 

5+ save (and tzeentch is very good for helping save rolls), yes, but 4 hp and can be bring back to life, a big speed and range making them able to not be caught by everything. Destiny dice make battleshock not relevant. They are really a steal.

[Requizen]

1 minute ago, ledha said:

5+ save (and tzeentch is very good for helping save rolls), yes, but 4 hp and can be bring back to life, a big speed and range making them able to not be caught by everything. Destiny dice make battleshock not relevant. They are really a steal.

You get 9 Destiny Dice per game, and their values are random, so saying "dice rolls are not relevant" is a pretty silly statement. Bringing them back to life is also not guaranteed, since it relies on being in range for the spell, getting the spell off, and killing models. 

Yes, when the Shaman and Skyfires go off, they really go off, but they take a lot of set up and a modicum of luck to get there.

[ledha]

7 minutes ago, Requizen said:

You get 9 Destiny Dice per game, and their values are random, so saying "dice rolls are not relevant" is a pretty silly statement. Bringing them back to life is also not guaranteed, since it relies on being in range for the spell, getting the spell off, and killing models. 

Yes, when the Shaman and Skyfires go off, they really go off, but they take a lot of set up and a modicum of luck to get there.

on 9 dice, it's pretty standard to have at least one "1/2" result. It's not very hard to take the big formation who give you the ability to choose the result of 3 destiny dice, and there is many ways to bring back more dices. For bringing skyfires back, i was refering to Fold reality, the fifth spell of the lore of change. 7 to cast is easy for tzeentch, as well as being 18"" of the skyfire.

[Wraith01]

Skyfires sound awesome!

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

on 9 dice, it's pretty standard to have at least one "1/2" result. It's not very hard to take the big formation who give you the ability to choose the result of 3 destiny dice, and there is many ways to bring back more dices. For bringing skyfires back, i was refering to Fold reality, the fifth spell of the lore of change. 7 to cast is easy for tzeentch, as well as being 18"" of the skyfire.

And on a roll of a 1 the entire unit dies. 

It's a d6 (2-6) of models. You'd have if you loose 6 from a unit of 9 (before it becomes worth the risk)  and pass the battleshock, then cast the spell and roll a decent number 

you're burning alot of destiny dice to do this.

You're ignoring the fact of the unit requiring the Shaman to be a good unit.

That's 3x160+120=600 points. That's nearly a third of someones entire army. Should that not be good ? 

For 180 points you get kurnoth hunters, for 540 points you get twice as many shots at greater range, better armour, map teleportation, and (nearly always due to a free Wyldwood) +1 to their save which is nearly always entirely rerollable, +1 wound and +1 bravery  with spells which allow you to regain models...which. count as battleline..

Skyfires are "op" though...

[Requizen]

Hunters are never Battleline, though the rest is pretty reasonable about Hunters. However, Skyfires can deal d3 MWs and have a much higher move speed, so the comparison isn't really one sided in either direction. 

[ledha]

1 hour ago, Arkiham said:

And on a roll of a 1 the entire unit dies. 

It's a d6 (2-6) of models. You'd have if you loose 6 from a unit of 9 (before it becomes worth the risk)  and pass the battleshock, then cast the spell and roll a decent number 

you're burning alot of destiny dice to do this.

You're ignoring the fact of the unit requiring the Shaman to be a good unit.

That's 3x160+120=600 points. That's nearly a third of someones entire army. Should that not be good ? 

For 180 points you get kurnoth hunters, for 540 points you get twice as many shots at greater range, better armour, map teleportation, and (nearly always due to a free Wyldwood) +1 to their save which is nearly always entirely rerollable, +1 wound and +1 bravery  with spells which allow you to regain models...which. count as battleline..

Skyfires are "op" though...

Not being as awesome as one of the most undercosted and powerful unit of the game doesn't mean you are a average or just "good" unit. The hunter teleportation is good, but predictible (unlike a 16" movement), and can be prevented if you fill the board with models. They don't make mortal wound and hit on 4+, like the skyfire, but the sylvaneth don't have lot of way (and the others are expensive) to buff too hit roll.

And a 7 to cast spell is extremely easy with tzeentch. Having more than 85% of chance to bring back several multi wound models is ridiculously strong.

As for the shaman, including him in the "cost" of the skyfire would be fair if you had to take him only for making them useful. But the tzaangor shaman is awesome and has other utility than making skyfire better. It's a solid and fast spellcaster. It's not a tax ! It would be one if you had to take the fatemaster

[Arkiham]

36 minutes ago, ledha said:

Not being as awesome as one of the most undercosted and powerful unit of the game doesn't mean you are a average or just "good" unit. 

Comparing them to the nearest unit is the only way to measure value, if you compare an elite unit to common trash what sort of outcome do you expect?

 

They are designed to be great range unit. Bog them down in combat and watch them crumble. More than enough armies have this potential now

[Nico]

Quote

Shaman should definitely have psychoconductive bond on the skyfires. Then how do you kill him?

Take the first turn, shoot the Shaman. Or even just shoot the unit to bits (5+ save! and bad bravery -use a Bravery debuff - Order have many of these) and double turn them. Or unbind the spell (there are at least two Warscrolls which are automatic unbinds). Or take a Starseer and use the rerolls to mess with his cast rolls or the number of models he gets back (which he cannot use Destiny Dice on). 

Given that their range is a lot lower than their effective range, they can actually lose a gunline battle to other tough massed pew pew.

[Tanka]

Play chaos, take Kairos and change his fold reality roll to a 1.

 

Hooray!

[Nico]

Or even a Starseer and make him sweat by having to roll twice.

[CaptKeiv]

Wow! Many great answers. Thanks a lot. Where to begin.

I think the shaman is a good kill first to minimise the mortal wounds. Usually the player effectively keeps his 1 and 2 for bravery (1s for horrors mostly). And passing spells is very easy for tzeentch. 

The chew them down in close combat is not very reliable because they are also quite good in close combat.

The other this is with 2 LoC. Within 18" the offensive spells and shooting is just too much for a durthu or aralielle to even withstand.

I play sylvaneth btw. So kurnoth are an option. I find them usually not enough constant being 4+ to hit. They sure disapoint often. 

And by killing many model to force a bravery isnt easy vs 4 wounds models.

When he has 2-3 left. The fold reality is clearly an option. 

Overall. I think the first target would be shaman. And the 2 LoC. Just ignore the skyfires. Kill squads of blue horrors by focusing and wiping them in one turn to prevent bravery of 1s with destiny dice. And try to combo a double turn.

[Tokyo Nift]

You play Sylvaneth and you're complaining about Skyfires??

Take the Gnarlroot battallion, take a hurricanum and 12 (4x3) hunters, go first because you are a one-drop army, and oneshot the LoC or the Shaman or whatever else your little heart desires.

[Ben]

IMO Sylvaneth are a hard counter to Skyfires!! Jump out of the woods with your Gunline and shoot him first.