Double Misfire Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hi guys, I'm coming to you with a very silly theory about Stormcast background that's been hanging off the back of my brain since the earliest days of AoS, and like all good conspiracy theories has only been reaffirmed with every new piece of loosely aligned new information I've been able to cherry-pick from subsequent background releases. I have no doubt that what I'm about to type probably isn't what GW have planned, and is simply the human mind's ability to find patterns in what for all intents and purposes are coincidental similarities and oddities, so all said and done, if you want a good laugh and have time to waste please read on! From the moment pictures of them first appeared (rumours of them first appeared really), anyone with any interest in wargaming and possessing the capacity for speech began excitedly pointing out the similarities between Stormcast and Space Marines, and this comparison and the End Times, GW's recent send off to the old WFB setting/set up for AoS were both fresh in my mind when I read first Age of Sigmar: Mighty Battles in an Age of Unending War and then The Quest for Ghal Maraz, the first book of the Realmgate Wars campaign when they were first released. The three Stormhosts focused on in these books were the Hammers of Sigmar, Hallowed Knights, and Celestial Vindicators, and after familiarising myself with their background and characters in AoS: Mighty Battles, I couldn't help but list the similarities between these Stormhosts and three Empire special characters (Valten, Luthor Huss and Boris Todbringer respectively) slain during the End Times. At this point the Celestant Prime hadn't turned up and speculation about who he could be hadn't begun (his appearance and The Balance of Power turned the dials on my theory up to 11, more on that later), so I was mainly collecting superficial similarities between the Stormhosts and Empire characters and asking if Sigmar had kept ahold of the souls of these Empire heroes after they had been killed to use as some kind of template for the members of his Stormhosts, similar to the Primarchs and Space Marine Legions in 40k. All three Empire heroes were slain after Teclis parted the Winds of Magic from the Great Vortex and Ulthuan fell, causing Sigmar to be released with the wind of Azyr; could Sigmar's return have meant that their souls and the souls of other defenders of the Empire after the vortex collapsed had been permanently bonded with the wind of Azyr (later becoming or joining with the realm of Azyr), instead of heading Morr's underworld (probably subsumed by Nagash at this point). Sigmar could have equally bargained or stolen these souls from Nagash, but Nagash tends to kick up a fuss about that kind of thing so it's unlikely to not have been mentioned already. Before moving on to the massive missing puzzle piece of the Celestant Prime's appearance I'll list all the tenuous similarities I've tallied up between the three original Stormhosts and their Empire special character counterparts from AoS: Mighty Battles and all subsequent publications onwards: Hammers of Sigmar - Valten The Hammers of Sigmar wear gold armour. Valten wore gold armour and has beautiful flowing golden blonde hair. There, got that out of the way. The Hammers of Sigmar really don't like giving up or admitting failure. Valten never got very much characterisation, but had an entire special rule about not giving up and getting back up after he'd been smacked down. The Hammers of Sigmar also seem to be the Stormhost best designed and positioned to act as a shining beacon, inspiring the people of the Mortal Realms in times of great Chaos and strife, which is certainly what Valten did for the Empire. The Hammers are without a doubt the 'poster boy' (read: Ultramarine) Stormhost both in the AoS setting and GW's marketing of the game. In Valten's revised background for the End Times it was made abundantly clear with the real Sigmar wandering around that he wasn't supposed to Sigmar's ambiguous reincarnation the same way he was when he was first introduced during the Storm of Chaos, but simply a very Sigmar-like guy with a lot of divine favour going for him, making him even more of a poster boy for the big guy if anything. Valten was a blacksmith in the village of Lachenbad before it was sacked by the forces of Chaos. Vandus Hammerhand was a blacksmith in a similar village in the Realm of Fire before it was sacked by the forces of Chaos. Sigmar seems to allocate individuals to Stormhosts based on type, so this one makes you think. (This was the first similarity I noticed between the Stormhosts and Empire heroes, and almost two years later is responsible for the rambling nonsense you're currently wasting your time with.) Valten was awarded Ghal Maraz by Karl Franz, before Sigmar's release from the Great Vortex. On being resurrected in Karl Franz's body and meeting Valten, Sigmar was cool with Valten keeping ahold of Ghal Maraz and sent him to relive Middenheim with it (probably against his better judgement knowing how well that turned out). When the Celestial Vindicators discovered the location of Ghal Maraz in the Realm of Metal, Sigmar was adamant that the Hammers of Sigmar would lead the expedition to reclaim it, and it was Vandus Hammerhand who would eventually reclaim it and present it to Sigmar. In End Times: Thanquoul Archaon had a mad-on for Valten, and after almost being beaten by him wasn't happy when he was had his kill stolen by a Vermin Lord with a penchant for decapitation. Thousands of years later in Balance of Power Archaon makes a bee-line for Vandus Hammerhand after realising he's wielded Ghal Maraz, and makes a special show out of demoralising and slaughtering the Hammers of Sigmar. Hallowed Knights - Luthor Huss The Hallowed Knights wear shiny silver armour. Luthor Huss wore silver armour and so did his horse. The Hallowed Knights are recruited from devout followers of Sigmar who died in battle with a prayer on their lips. Warrior priest, go figure. Gardus Steel-Soul was a healer in his mortal life, and the Hallowed Knights are best known for freeing the Realm of Life from the clutches of Nurgle. While I can't recall an instance in the background or any novels where Luthor Huss heals anything he could in game and it nicely fits the warrior priest/fantasy cleric archetype. Sigmarite warrior priests have always been noted for their ability to shrug off evil magic and for their strength of will, and Luthor Huss was notable for his feats of will even by the standards of his own order (the guy permakilled Drachenfels with his mind!). In the new Stormcast Battletome the Hallowed Knights battalion gives them a rule allowing them to shrug of spells on a 5+. Celestial Vindicators - Boris Todbringer The Celestial Vindicators are recruited from those who lost their tribes and families to Chaos in their mortal lives, and are left with an unquenchable thirst for vengeance, often against their better judgement. Boris Todbringer's son was slain by the beastlord Khazrak One-Eye, who he dedicated his life to rooting out and pursuing, often against his better judgement. By the time Valten reached Middenheim during the End Times, Todbringer was entirely consumed by his need for vengeance, to the point of handing the keys to the city to Valten and riding off into the Drakwald and to his death. Thostos Bladestorm was particularly resentful of the Hammers of Sigmar being put incharge of the Quest to Reclaim Ghal Maraz after he had discovered it's resting place, and the Celestial Vindicators in general and the more reserved Stormhosts seem to do an equally good job of winding each other up with their differences in temperament and tactical doctrine. This neatly mirrors Middenland's slightly resentful bridesmaid/bride dynamic with Reikland and the rest of the Empire. As of the new Stormcast Battletome the Celestial Vindicators are very into their swords. Despite Ulricans typically eschewing swords for axes and hammers, Boris Todbringer was a consummate swordsmen and rode into battle wielding the Middenland Runefang, his badge of office. Before the Celestant Prime was released most of what I'd come up with seemed too broad to add up, with the three established Stormhosts basically broken down into poster boys, religious types and Space Wolves and me grasping at straws to match them up with old Warhammer characters in a desperate bid to reassure myself that the setting I loved so much was still a force that mattered in its (at the time) very underdeveloped replacement. It also struggled to hold up when the question of Karl Franz was raised; if Sigmar had used the greatest heroes of the Empire during the End Times as templates for his Space Marine chapters, then why not use the greatest of them all? Arguably Karl Franz's soul could still have been bonded with Sigmar's or Sigmar still in his body, but it did seem like a glaring hole in what I'd come up with. Enter the Celestant Prime. While a small group of very strange contrarian individuals like to grasp at straws and argue that he's supposed to be Settra or Louen Leoncoeur (very strange individuals grasping at straws by the standards of someone currently writing an essay speculating that Stormcast have primarchs ), it's widely accepted that if the Celestant Prime is an old Warhammer character then he's probably Karl Franz. Karl Franz turning up as probably the Celestant Prime actually put me off theorising that old Empire characters had been used as Stormhost Primarchs, as if Karl Franz was being used as the Celestant Prime it was probably unlikely his friends were being used for different things. It wasn't until The Balance of Power, the second Realmgate Wars book came out and the Tempest Lords came out that my theory went into overdrive: Tempest Lords - Karl Franz The Tempest Lords aren't part of the First Striking, and didn't appear in the background until the Celestant Prime had been woken up with Ghal Maraz, and their upgrade pack didn't come out until after the release of the first Stormcast Battletome, much later than the Knights Excelsior and Celestial Warbringers upgrade packs were released. If Karl Franz is the Celestant Prime, had Sigmar been unable to reforge their souls before he had the Celestant Prime up and running? The Tempest Lords are reforged from dynasties of warrior aristocrats, great leaders and mighty fighters all, who died defending their kingdoms and empires from the machinations of Chaos. Doesn't sound at all familiar. The Tempest Lords' custom chapter symbol is a hand holding a big golden hammer. Karl Franz is known for holding a big golden hammer. The new Tempest Lords Harbringer Chamber battalion's rules paint them as aerial combat specialists, something Karl Franz never had a special rule signifying in game, but was often noted as being in the background. The Tempest Lords are excellent public speakers, "Their stirring rhetoric has a galvanising effect on those around them; even the downtrodden and oppressed rise up, inspired to follow". Karl Franz was the greatest statesman and leader in the Old World, something that probably required a decent amount of stirring rhetoric. I recently had a bit of time to sit down with the new Stormcast book for long enough to read the parts of it that weren't battalions and allegiance abilities, and the box about the Price of Immortality on page 4 is very interesting in how it describes Stormcast being repeatedly reforged to begin displaying stronger and stronger cases of the psyches associated with their Stormhosts, similar to Space Marine geneseed. If the Stormhosts' psyches have to come from somewhere, and aren't purely determined by the grouping of recruits with similar personalities into different chapters, then coming from the souls of slain Sigmarite champions of the World that Was is as good a reason as any. None of the other established Stormhosts seem to place as concretely or clearly with Empire heroes as the four I've listed above, but I'll add what I've got for them, even though it's got much more conjecture than the previous stuff. Knights Excelsior - ??? The Knights Excelsior are uncompromising, regimented, excellent tacticians, suspicious of those around them and are very scorched earth in their approach to dealing with Chaos corruption. Kurt Helborg would be the obvious candidate, but he was slain by Otto Glott before Karl Franz died and was possessed by Sigmar's spirit traveling on the wind of Azyr, so if Sigmar/Azyr was only able to start collecting the souls of fallen heroes after the climax of End Times: Khaine, it's unclear if the Great Vortex had collapsed or not by then. (If anyone can tell me how long it takes and unleashed vortex of arcane celestial energy, manifested as a giant golden comet to cross half a planet please get intouch) Ludwig Schwarzhelm fits the above attributes almost as well as Helborg and didn't die until much later, so he's an option too. The sun custom chapter symbol nicely matches Averland and/or Myrmidia, or even Solland on white armour. Anvils of the Heldenhammer - ??? Forged under a mysterious gloom, made up of heroes of a forgotten age and with an unknown link to Nagash, the easy pairing for these guys would be an undead character, however as Sigmar's pretty much anathemic to the undead and hopefully not stupid enough to model a legion of 10,000 warriors on one, I'd like to offer up another option. When Nagash was resurrected at the beginning of the End Times, it was in the body of Volkmar the Grim, who had been lured to Sylvania and captured for this specific purpose by Mannfred von Carstein during the events of Sigmar's Blood. Nagash remained in Volkmar's (very stretched out) body until the very end of the End Times when he turned to dust after Teclis's ritual went to hell. Supposing Volkmar's soul had clung to his body, futilely fighting against the will of the great necromancer for the duration of the End Times, only to be set free and cast into Sigmar's realm at the final stroke? Astral Templars - ??? The Astral Templars are an interesting one in that they're less developed than the other Stormhosts listed here, and have two very viable candidates for 'Primarch', both less developed than the other Empire heroes listed. None the less, they're very distinct, with a reputation for being recruited from barbaric tribes and wearing a lot of fur, with a reputation as monster hunters. The first candidate is Gregor Martak, the Amber Wizard who took over as Supreme Patriarch after Balthasar Gelt went through his goth phase in the End Times. Already a bearded guy who wore a lot of fur and preferred caves to houses with a strong link to monsters and beasts, Martak absorbed the power of Ulric in End Times: Thanquol, and wielded it in battle before being skinned alive by Archaon. The second is Markus Wulfheart. I think Markus Wulfheart has had all of half a page describing his special character entry in the 8th Edition Empire army book and a stanza where he turns up and shoots Taurox the Brass Bull a few times during the End Times written about him and that's literally it. I don't think even Markus Wulfheart cares about Markus Wulfheart very much, or thinks he's a particularly interesting character, but he is a fur wearing, outdoorsy monster hunter who was definitely alive after Ulthuan collapsed, so here he is. Anyway, there you have it. Thanks for taking the time to read this nonsense, I look forward to it being torn apart! tl;dr I still can't process the loss of my favourite WFB characters and am desperately trying to shoehorn them into the new setting. Also Stormcast = Spacemarines because GW can't into originality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaldoBeardo Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Oh man I like the Anvils of Heldenhammer even more now. I thought I was thinking up my own Stormcast Chamber, with ties to Shysh...but I love the AoH paint scheme and theme...this just cements it. Now the other Chamber I thought was cool is the Sons of Mallus. Really cool theorizing, I've been fitted for my tin foil hat too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galas Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 You had me with Stormcast Primarchs. You bought me with Borist Todbringer being one of them! The one thing that make me sad, its the retcon that stormcast are only humans... I wan't my Orruk Stormcast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saproling Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Double Misfire, this is amazing and now I want some stormcasts! The theory is solid and an excellent read! If the Celestant Prime was the first stormcast to be made, but not complete, I'd vouch for it being Karl Franz as his body was Sigmars vessel when the End Times happened, so his soul is would be closest to Sigmar's at that point and would also be exposed to the energies of Azyr. Not sure what happened to Balthasar, but didn't he become the Incarnate of Metal? Anyhow, I'm loving this theory and there'll be some Stormies (totes fantasy 'beakies') added once I get through the Aelves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAL Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Stop making me want to spend my money on lore and Stormcast! I am trying to save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Misfire Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 10 hours ago, Galas said: The one thing that make me sad, its the retcon that stormcast are only humans... I wan't my Orruk Stormcast I don't think GW has ever explicitly said there aren't any non human Stormcast in the same way they've said there aren't female Space Marines, so there's nothing stopping you from converting aelf Stormcast or whatever and coming up with your own rules for them. 9 hours ago, Saproling said: Double Misfire, this is amazing and now I want some stormcasts! The theory is solid and an excellent read! If the Celestant Prime was the first stormcast to be made, but not complete, I'd vouch for it being Karl Franz as his body was Sigmars vessel when the End Times happened, so his soul is would be closest to Sigmar's at that point and would also be exposed to the energies of Azyr. Not sure what happened to Balthasar, but didn't he become the Incarnate of Metal? Anyhow, I'm loving this theory and there'll be some Stormies (totes fantasy 'beakies') added once I get through the Aelves! Thanks dude! Balthasar Gelt spent most of the End Times wearing black nail polish after Vlad von Carstein lent him some books on necromancy shortly after Nagash was resurrected, before becoming the Incarnate of Metal and rejoining the good guys when Averheim, the free city of the Empire was destroyed by Archaon. He was explicitly killed by Mannfred von Carstein during Teclis and the Incarnates ritual to try and collapse the new warpgate under Middenheim after Archaon was defeated, but Teclis was also definitely killed off for real when the ritual went to hell, and up and about during the Age of Sigmar, so there's no reason why Gelt with his status as an Incarnate shouldn't be too. After Gelt became the Incarnate of Metal most of the surviving dwarfs in the Incarnates' army started calling him the second coming of Grungni, so maybe there's a chance he'll feature in the upcoming Steamhead Duardin book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDuff Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 There sure is some great creativity on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Misfire Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Oh wow, this thread got bumped. Fresh fuel for the fire: Flavour of last week Angharad Brightshield - also a blacksmith in her mortal life. Are Blacksmiths exclusive to the Hammers of Sigmar? IT ALL... ADDS... UP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Misfire Posted June 30, 2018 Author Share Posted June 30, 2018 It probably says a depressing amount about me that I'm really looking forward to updating this thread next week when I've got the new Stormcast book in my hands and have read the Soul Wars tie in novel (apparently featuring an Anvil of the Heldenhammer Lord-Arcanum who may or may not be able to trace his roots back to the world-that-was). ? The Anvils of the Heldenhammer's link to long dead heroes mentioned here has already got me thinking they could have Magnus the Pious, or a similar long dead hero from the Empire's past as "primarch"... I'm also working on a theory about Nagash in Age of Sigmar, surpassing this one in daftness several million times that I'm very excited to post when I've finished rereading all the relevant material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrZakalwe Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 If only Games Workshop had cool lore for them like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperHappyTime Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 On 3/7/2017 at 8:52 PM, Saproling said: Double Misfire, this is amazing and now I want some stormcasts! The theory is solid and an excellent read! If the Celestant Prime was the first stormcast to be made, but not complete, I'd vouch for it being Karl Franz as his body was Sigmars vessel when the End Times happened, so his soul is would be closest to Sigmar's at that point and would also be exposed to the energies of Azyr. Not sure what happened to Balthasar, but didn't he become the Incarnate of Metal? Anyhow, I'm loving this theory and there'll be some Stormies (totes fantasy 'beakies') added once I get through the Aelves! There may have been an appearance of one of these characters in the Soul Wars book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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