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MightyOwl

ways to deal with gunlines?

41 posts in this topic

wayniac    618
6 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Forgive my inexperience, but why not?

I'm not suggesting it as a sure-fire way to survive, but surely it would either reduce the amount of shooting that can reach you, or force the enemy to move forward?

Usually your abilities force you to play closer up, which means within the range of enemy guns, unless you have a lot of buildings to block LOS and hope you position just right so the enemy can't maneuver a guy at an angle to hit you (e..g move a Knight-Venator around so he has a clear shot at your hero behind a building).

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CoffeeGrunt    704

There's too many units rocking 30"+ range who could skewer a Necromancer no problem. On top of that, there are artillery units that ignore line of sight as well who could hit one behind cover. 

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Bradifer    144

Gonna quote myself on a post from another thread about some future ideas for gunline counters.

On 3/8/2017 at 10:26 AM, Bradifer said:

As a Death player I'm certainly hoping for a future release with some shooting just for army diversity.

But talking on counters to ranged in general. Certainly we can move past better counters being more ranged units.

I think a neat mechanic would be a unit that has flying while charging, essentially a "jump" unit, that can jump over screening units. I imagine Crypt Flayers/Vargheists, maybe dwarf/goblin tossing, squigs, Vanguard Palladors.

Other potential ideas:

  • Specific defenses to shooting i.e. you choose overhead shields, and you get +1 save in the shooting phase.
  • Bat Swarms, they muck up the air giving nearby shooting units -1 to hit.
  • Units with a large pile-in, like 6" rather than 3", so they can potenially pile in past screening units, or take advantage of a mechanic that lets them fight + pile in twice.
  • Some Wonder-Woman gauntlets that reflect shooting/spells back at the shooter, or can be redirected.
  • As mentioned above - Rainy/windy/night time conditions that make all or just shooting units have -X to hit or wound.
  • A spell or mechanic that allows a player to reposition enemy models (Think Death - Mind Control Gaze, Chaos - Enrage opponent to fight you in melee, Destruction - Stomp the ground and intimidate the gravity so the Kurnoth Hunters walk toward you, etc, Order - Dwarves literally using Magnets. This one is tricky because touching other people's models is an etiquette thing, so GW might word it so that the shooting player must move his models so they end X inches closer, but then they can just say "Well they're suck behind this screen here, what a shame." etc.
  • Simply make Cavalry more relevant. A lot of people have Cavalry models, but choose to not use them because they're overpointed in general, and don't really have that hard-hitting charge feeling. Charging should probably be significantly better for their warscrolls, not slightly better. (Think lances become +1 Rend, +1 damage, +1 wound, something like that.)
  • GHB2.0 can obviously affect unit costs which we will probably see on Kurnoth Hunters, Warpfire Stormfiends, Mourngul etc..
  • GHB2.0 can also add a penalty to shooting attacks if the unit is engaged in melee combat. This could potentially complicate the game more than they want, especially for units like Fulminators' Lightning Surge, which they probably can still shoot fine, but can a unit of handgunners realistically just stand there and aim perfectly while Gore Gruntas are stomping on them?
  • Enforced LOS rules. However this can complicate the game too. Some of you more experienced guys may have input.

Well that's some of my thoughts, any input?

EDIT: I'm not saying to incorporate all of these, they are just ideas. Specifically I think we want a game where each faction has its own limited amount of counters for an opponent's variety of tactics. Then you have the players' army lists + scenario + player skill + Dice RNG to determine the outcome of each game. So while maybe Stormcast has shooting + teleporting into battle as primary options, maybe an IronJawz player has being fast + using a shaman to make the sky dark/rainy etc, Or a Death player can jump over screening units or use a mind control to bring the ranged units closer. They all achieve something similar, but require the units to be brought in the first place, and they aren't duplicates of each other, and they all fit flavor wise.

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Gauche    186

As a Kunnin' Rukk Player I haven't seen anything that Death brings which puts me off my game. Death relies so much on Heroes to improve their resiliency and it's so easy to snipe Characters in this game, unfortunately. Death really needs a way to protect Heroes outside of Terrain (unreliable) and Range (removes your ability to use their Buffs).

A lot of the popular Death lists are also fairly slow, or super elite. That's just the Faction not having enough options, which is often lamented. If you rely on your Heroes as your work horses then guns just take them out and the rest of the army is much less effective, a pretty common Death build from what I've seen. Coming in waves is also awful against gunlines, you need overwhelming force.

I think there are a lot of builds against gunlines for Death using Mornghouls and other very durable, decent speed Units but Kunnin' Rukk plays against Death so well and is one of the premier gunlines along with Kurnoth Hunter spam. Not having great options to snipe the Big Boss hurts and eating multiple screens (when models are place correctly) also hurts.

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Andreas    262
30 minutes ago, Gauche said:

...Kunnin' Rukk .. Kurnoth Hunter spam.

Yes but isn't these two of the four lists that are expected (edit: at least I expect) to get significant points increase in GH2 (together with setra+snakes lists and thundertusks spam lists).

So I think the best counter to these is just to wait. ?

Edited by Andreas

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Gauche    186

Kurnoth Hunters yes, Arrowboys I'd be surprised by. The Unit itself isn't an issue, the Battalion is. If you nerf the Unit then pure Bonesplitterz get A LOT worse. I think the Battalion will go up and Thundertusks go up. The list is only T1 because of Mortal Wound spam, otherwise good Armor Saves would be a direct counter.

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Bradifer    144

Alternatively, Thundertusks could have just had ~ 6 attacks, 3+ hit 3+ wound and every wound is a mortal wound. The # of attacks degrades down.

I think that would have made a lot more sense as part of every breath could have bee wide enough it missed, but you still get mortal wound output rather than armor saves.

Auto 6 wounds or mortal wounds is just so swingy in effectiveness (See Spirit of Durthu).

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Squirrelmaster    290
7 hours ago, wayniac said:

Usually your abilities force you to play closer up, which means within the range of enemy guns, unless you have a lot of buildings to block LOS and hope you position just right so the enemy can't maneuver a guy at an angle to hit you (e..g move a Knight-Venator around so he has a clear shot at your hero behind a building).

 

6 hours ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

There's too many units rocking 30"+ range who could skewer a Necromancer no problem. On top of that, there are artillery units that ignore line of sight as well who could hit one behind cover. 

See, what I'm thinking is three or four Necromancers literally at the very back of your deployment zone, with maybe 100 zombies in 10 units of 10 (assuming 2000pts here), mostly deployed conga-line with one model at the front edge of your deployment zone, the rest dragging behind. Pick a zombie to be your general (while that's still legal, otherwise pick a necro) and make sure all your units (Necromancers included) are within Ruler of the Night range.

Coupled with the Necromancers' "Undead Minions" rule, it should take about 15 wounds to bring down 1 necro, if they have some kind of rend or mortal wounds (18 if they are rend "-"). That's assuming no cover. Your opponent would basically need a combined move + shoot of 36", so chances are they won't bring their full shooting to bear (and if they do, they may need to move closer). Yes, you'll lose one or two, but you can take up to six so at least one should survive, right?

Wounds from "Undead Minions" should be distributed across as many different zombie units as possible, to maximise the effects of your banners. Units of 10 means battleshock won't be a major issue on turn 1, a smart opponent will attempt to wipe out whole units where possible (to prevent your banners from working), but that makes their shooting less efficient overall (no battleshock, and potential wasted shots).

On your turn, use the banners first and place any models resurrected as close to the enemy as possible — with a 25mm round base or 20mm square (placed diagonally), and 1" coherency, you're getting about 2" closer for each model raised. If that brings you to within 13", then merge up to a unit of 60 and go straight for the charge — you'll need a 9+ to make it, or less if you're closer. Otherwise, go for summoning - the Sword of Unholy Power would be ideal, but you'll probably lose at least one Necromancer (the guy with the sword, of course), so more likely you're relying on that 4+ casting.

Conga-line the summoned unit, keeping the 1st model with 1" of one of your original units, even just a unit of 10 should stretch right up to the 9" from the enemy mark. Then merge up to a unit of 60, go for Vanhel's Danse on them, and Inspiring presence (get your general merged in there if possible, or else try to keep him within 10").

You'll lose your regular movement for the non-summoned guys, but if you pull of the 9" charge they'll get that plus two pile-ins, you won't get them all in but a decent number should hit striking range, plus you can remove casualties from the back and add any summoned units to the front.

If you fail the 9" charge, you'll really need to win the next initiative role — though if you do, it's a guaranteed charge and even more models getting in.

Not a sure thing by any means, but with careful positioning and summoning, you might be able to get multiple charge attempts off. Between multiple chances to make it work and a 50/50 of getting a double-turn if you fail, the odds do say you should only have to weather one turn's worth of shooting before you get there.

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CoffeeGrunt    704

Yeah I can't see a strategy that fragile and intricate working out that well. You'd need your zombies to be within 3" of your necros to get the Undead Minions ability, and if they're at the board edge you're completely incapable of putting any pressure on your opponent or making a real attempt to capture objectives. Either you advance to apply pressure and are shot a lot, or you sit back and they plink away with shots, focusing you down unit by unit. 

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Andreas    262
15 hours ago, Gauche said:

Kurnoth Hunters yes, Arrowboys I'd be surprised by. The Unit itself isn't an issue, the Battalion is. If you nerf the Unit then pure Bonesplitterz get A LOT worse. I think the Battalion will go up and Thundertusks go up. The list is only T1 because of Mortal Wound spam, otherwise good Armor Saves would be a direct counter.

We will have to see. I agree that the battalion is the issue and the best solution would probably be to rewrite it to only effect close combat. But if Kairic Acolytes are an indication I would still think they will end up at 140pt same as the Acolytes. But who knows...

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Squirrelmaster    290

If you're willing to go compendium (Tomb Kings), there's a lot to be said for Tomb Scorpions, Carrion, and Tomb Swarms as anti-gunline.

The scorpions are pricey — 16pts per wound with a 4+ save, but are pretty hard-hitting — you're looking at about 11pt per attack-damage, mostly 4+/3+ with rend -2. Most importantly, they can set up 6" from the enemy, ready to charge that turn unless you flub the roll.

The carrion work out quite cheap — about 9pts/wound with a 6+ save, but can't be shot at all until after they charge. About 7-8pts per attack, on 4+/3+ isn't devastating but it's not terrible either.

The swarms are not great, imo. They work out at around 8pts/wound but have no save at all, 8pts/attack but 5+/5+. The main reason I mention them is tunneling — they can set up 9" away and attempt a charge straight away. The self-healing is pretty potent, but you basically miss out on a whole turn to do it… I think that would be hard to take advantage of.

I guess Prince Apophas deserves a mention, too. In fact, if you ran Apophas as your compulsory leader, 3 units of Skeleton Horsemen as your battleline, and the rest on scorpions, carrion, and/or tomb swarms, you could have a very fast army that would be largely immune to gunlines until you were actually in combat.

You could maybe throw in some Cairn Wraiths to help with artefacts, deathless minions, and three places of power — sure they die pretty easily but they're so cheap that they work out around 6pts/wound if you're not facing mortal wounds, throw them in cover and they are more points-effective than zombies.

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Gauche    186
4 hours ago, Andreas said:

We will have to see. I agree that the battalion is the issue and the best solution would probably be to rewrite it to only effect close combat. But if Kairic Acolytes are an indication I would still think they will end up at 140pt same as the Acolytes. But who knows...

I can see that argument. I'd say that Arrowboys are more important for an extremely limited faction compared to DoT who have a ton of options, so that may tie their hands. But of course we'll wait and see and I'm sure a good balance will be struck.

It would be nice to receive Warscroll updates as I agree that making the Rukk Melee only would be great. But they aren't going to do that, they seem to only be adjusting points.

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CoffeeGrunt    704

Tbh I feel that KrAcolytes are a bit overcosted, they don't have durability, hitting power or anything special about them, and they cost 14ppm.

Tzaangors cause me no end of trouble by comparison.

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Gauche    186
Just now, CoffeeGrunt said:

Tbh I feel that KrAcolytes are a bit overcosted, they don't have durability, hitting power or anything special about them, and they cost 14ppm.

Tzaangors cause me no end of trouble by comparison.

This was my feeling as well. I don't see many Acolytes in my area despite a few Tzeentch Players.

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LJ26    33

@Gauchedo you screen your rukk? And if u do does that inhibit your 18 inch range? I'm curious bc several of my friends have just switched over to Bonesplittaz, one magic heavy, 1 kunnin ruk heavy

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Gauche    186

@LJ26 I do, two Units of 20 Grots with a Fanatic each and the 10 Savage Orruks for the Battalion. It hasn't stopped me from getting within 18" yet, excecpt if I go first of course. Rampaging Destroyer is completely insane for unpacking your army, people always underestimate the d6" movement in the Hero Phase.

Typically I put the Arrowboys up front, screens on the side. Arrowboys move up and do their thing, screens move up and also Run to get in front of them. The timing of almost everything with Destruction is in the order you want so that's very exploitable. So you can Rampaging Destroyer the screens up, then the Arrowboys, then do the Kunnin' Rukk shot. +d6" to the range is pretty good.

Edited by Gauche
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